Patch wrote to All <=-
DM asked me to post some of my questions in here in an effort to get
peer assistance with it. So here goes ... =)
I've been busy trying to further customize my menu structure of
SynchroNet to resemble more like the original WWIV system I ran back
then.
I've read the Wiki and had grasped most of it, despite some flaws contained within it.
One of the things that I was trying to change was the Doors menu, where you select 1 for applications or 2 for Games. According to the Wiki
it's a non-default menu called xtrn_src.* (not looking at the Wiki at
the moment, so could be wrong).
I've placed the menu in the Text folder, in the text -> menus folder,
and even the text -> menu -> wwiv folder, and it still won't display.
Is it now known by a different name? Can it even be customized?
One other aspect ... what is the external menu name for the Sysop menu?
Thanks in advance guys and gals ... =)
DM asked me to post some of my questions in here in an effort to get peer assistance with it. So here goes ... =)
I've been busy trying to further customize my menu structure of SynchroNet to resemble more like the original WWIV system I ran back then.
I've read the Wiki and had grasped most of it, despite some flaws contained within it.
One of the things that I was trying to change was the Doors menu, where you select 1 for applications or 2 for Games. According to the Wiki it's a non-default menu called xtrn_src.* (not looking at the Wiki at the moment, so could be wrong).
I've placed the menu in the Text folder, in the text -> menus folder, and even the text -> menu -> wwiv folder, and it still won't display.
Is it now known by a different name? Can it even be customized?
One other aspect ... what is the external menu name for the Sysop menu?
It's "xtrn_sec.asc" and I've pleaced mine in the menu folder as what I can gather that is the default.
It's "xtrn_sec.asc" and I've pleaced mine in the menu folder as what I can gather that is the default.
It can be customized editing the bullseye.cfg in the ..sbbs/text folder. It would look something like this:
0
../text/system.msg
../text/newuser.asc
../text/sbbs.msg
../docs/dove-net.txt
Each line corresponds to the # you give it in the xtrn_sec.asc file
What I've done is taken the bulletin.src file in the ../exec folder, edited it (you'll see references to "set str" which is the name of the new cfg file you want to make and "printfile" which is the name of the new *.asc file you want to show) I've created three different sub menus in the text folder.
I believe you're talking about sysmain.asc
... and those flaws are?
It's "xtrn_sec.asc" and I've pleaced mine in the menu folder as what I can gather that is the default.
So does everything need to be .ASC, or can you have a .ASC, .ANS, etc depending on whether or not they set their character set to the extended IBM one?
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Mon May 16 2016 03:09 pm
... and those flaws are?
Much like what's already printed in there, that they contain dated material and may not be completely accurate.
To be honest I wish I could help update those, but I think I'd still be asking more questions than updating ... =)
No. The extended IBM characters (CP437) can be used in any of the files. The ".ANS" extension for files that contain ANSI terminal escape sequences: http://wiki.synchro.net/custom:menu_files
Okay, but you stated there are flaws. Please tell us what those flaws are so we can fix them.
No. The extended IBM characters (CP437) can be used in any of the files ".ANS" extension for files that contain ANSI terminal escape sequences: http://wiki.synchro.net/custom:menu_files
Thanks for the link, but I need to be honest with you on this one.
I have absolutely no idea what you just said =)
On 05/17/16, Patch said the following...
No. The extended IBM characters (CP437) can be used in any of the fi ".ANS" extension for files that contain ANSI terminal escape sequenc http://wiki.synchro.net/custom:menu_files
Thanks for the link, but I need to be honest with you on this one.
I have absolutely no idea what you just said =)
He means any file can contain extended ANSI characters, like blocks and lines, but .ANS files actually contain escape sequences, such as those for animation, cursor movement and color, for example esc[A1 moves a cursor up a line, esc[XXm for colors, etc...
DM asked me to post some of my questions in here in an effort to get peer assistance with it. So here goes ... =)
I've been busy trying to further customize my menu structure of SynchroNet
Re: Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Mon May 16 2016 10:18 pm
No. The extended IBM characters (CP437) can be used in any of the files. The ".ANS" extension for files that contain ANSI terminal escape sequences: http://wiki.synchro.net/custom:menu_files
Thanks for the link, but I need to be honest with you on this one.
I have absolutely no idea what you just said =)
I'm not a programmer, truth be told I've failed my Java class twice in college, and my algebra class once as well. I have an issue where i cannot comprehend logical statements and math situations.
Too long of a story to go over, but there ya have it. =)
Would you please dumb it down a bit for me?
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Mon May 16 2016 10:19 pm
Okay, but you stated there are flaws. Please tell us what those flaws are so we can fix them.
Maybe that wasn't the right word to use, I was meaning the errs in the accuracy in some parts of the documentation.
i dont know why he told you to post here for help with this stuff.
it's all listed in the docs.
You used the term "extended IBM characters", so I assumed you know what that means? If not, try googling it or "code page 437" or "CP437" and I think you'll quickly understand:
Ι[ώ][?]ΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝ»
Ί SyncTERM Online Menu Ί ΜΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΉ
The line-drawing symbols above are made up of CP437 characters or so-called "IBM extended ASCII". This is not "ANSI".
The term "ANSI" usually refers to the ANSI X3.64 terminal definition and (in the BBS world), the MS-DOS "ANSI.SYS" console driver implementation. ANSI terminal support enables COLORS, cursor positioning, row insertion/deletion, and other terminal control via so-called "escape sequences".
The combination of ANSI (X3.64) with IBM extended ASCII (CP437), is usually what sysops and users mean whey refer to "ANSI graphics", but technically, they are 2 different things.
You don't have to be a programmer to understand the difference between ANSI and extended ASCII.
Would you please dumb it down a bit for me?
Hopefully, that did it. This should also help: http://synchro.net/docs/glossary.html
Can you be more specific.. or were you just complaining with merit?
Re: Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Tue May 17 2016 04:22 pm
You used the term "extended IBM characters", so I assumed you know what that means? If not, try googling it or "code page 437" or "CP437" and I think you'll quickly understand: Ι[ώ][?]ΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝ»
Ί SyncTERM Online Menu Ί ΜΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΉ
The BBS, when logging in as a new user will ask you if your computer can support extended IBM characters, which I decipher as 'can your system support ANSI characters'.
The line-drawing symbols above are made up of CP437 characters or so-called "IBM extended ASCII". This is not "ANSI".
Right, I see that.
The term "ANSI" usually refers to the ANSI X3.64 terminal definition and (in the BBS world), the MS-DOS "ANSI.SYS" console driver implementation. ANSI terminal support enables COLORS, cursor positioning, row insertion/deletion,
and other terminal control via so-called "escape sequences".
Ok ... again, thank you.
The combination of ANSI (X3.64) with IBM extended ASCII (CP437), is usually what sysops and users mean whey refer to "ANSI graphics", but technically, they are 2 different things.
I see that now, thank you.
You don't have to be a programmer to understand the difference between ANSI and extended ASCII.
Would you please dumb it down a bit for me?
Hopefully, that did it. This should also help: http://synchro.net/docs/glossary.html
Say's the person that designed the application from its very core.
Thanks for helping.
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Tue May 17 2016 04:23 pm
Can you be more specific.. or were you just complaining with merit?
Are you seriously looking to start an argument, or is the condescending tone simply part of the 'whole package' from the seasoned SynchroNet folks to the new people coming around?!
No, I'm trying to fix the "flaws" in the wiki that you stated were there, but didn't provide any details. I'm sure there are flaws, I would just like your assistance in pointing out the flaws you discovered so they can be fixed. If you don't want to help us fix the flaws you found, then just say so.
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Digital Man to Patch on Tue May 17 2016 07:15 pm
No, I'm trying to fix the "flaws" in the wiki that you stated were there, but didn't provide any details. I'm sure there are flaws, I would just like your assistance in pointing out the flaws you discovered so they can be fixed. If you don't want to help us fix the flaws you found, then just say so.
1.) I stated that the word 'flaws' may not have been the right word to use, and that I was referring to the inaccuracy in some parts of the Wiki due to it simply being outdated.
2.) I remember offering/volunteering/desiring to "help" as you put it in a previous post, but wanted to get to know the software better because I'd "ask more questions than answer them".
So again, since those are direct quotes from previous messages ... are you purposfully trying to incite a verbal argument over this forum?
1.) I stated that the word 'flaws' may not have been the right word to use, and that I was referring to the inaccuracy in some parts of the Wiki due to it simply being outdated.
So here's the thing about the docs.
For me personally, it's not incredibly user friendly. It's outdated in a good portion of the contents. It's not incredibly clear what the content is telling me even when I do find the information.
To be honest Mro, I find your answer very condescending and contradictory to the Wiki's own suggestion to post questions so that those who have and are supporting it, the volunteers, can assist.
With the tone that I am receiving from your answer ... I'll take my chances elsewhere if it's all the same to you.
You used the term "extended IBM characters", so I assumed you know what
that means? If not, try googling it or "code page 437" or "CP437" and I
think you'll quickly understand:
Ι[ώ][?]ΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝ» Ί SyncTERM Online
Menu Ί ΜΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΝΉ
The BBS, when logging in as a new user will ask you if your computer
can support extended IBM characters, which I decipher as 'can your
system support ANSI characters'.
No, I'm trying to fix the "flaws" in the wiki that you stated were
there, but didn't provide any details. I'm sure there are flaws, I
would just like your assistance in pointing out the flaws you
discovered so they can be fixed. If you don't want to help us fix the
flaws you found, then just say so.
1.) I stated that the word 'flaws' may not have been the right word
to use, and that I was referring to the inaccuracy in some parts of
the Wiki due to it simply being outdated.
No, I'm trying to fix the "inaccuracies" or "flaws" that you stated you found in the wiki. What are *you* trying to do?
I don't think that DM's intention is to get bogged down in a petty squabble over choices of words - he just wants to know what needs to be fixed. If you can state that something is flawed, inaccurate, or outdated, then you presumably have a reason for doing so. If there's something inaccurate or outdated in the wiki, please point it out and explain what you think is wrong with it - and then it can be corrected.
Can you be more specific.. or were you just complaining with merit?
Are you seriously looking to start an argument, or is the condescending tone simply part of the 'whole package' from the seasoned SynchroNet folks to the new people coming around?!
I remember asking him a question in email and stating the reason why I didn't "look where the answer was" because it was in the exec folder. A day later his Wiki gets updated to include that folder where that particular files are located.
Thing is, he knows some of the challenges that I faced with the documentation, and to be honest some of the challenges were interpreting what could be clear for him, which isn't always clear for others.
So here's the thing about the docs.
For me personally, it's not incredibly user friendly. It's outdated in a good portion of the contents. It's not incredibly clear what the content
is telling me even when I do find the information.
To be honest Mro, I find your answer very condescending and contradictory
to the Wiki's own suggestion to post questions so that those who have and are supporting it, the volunteers, can assist.
With the tone that I am receiving from your answer ... I'll take my chances elsewhere if it's all the same to you.
The BBS, when logging in as a new user will ask you if your computer can support extended IBM characters, which I decipher as 'can your system support ANSI characters'.
Would you please dumb it down a bit for me?
Hopefully, that did it. This should also help: http://synchro.net/docs/glossary.htmlSay's the person that designed the application from its very core.
Thanks for helping.
Are you seriously looking to start an argument, or is the condescending
tone simply part of the 'whole package' from the seasoned SynchroNet folks to the new people coming around?!
i dont care what the wiki suggests. wikis are fucking retarded.
the only people that should be submitting to a software wiki are those that are developing it. unfortunately writing documentation is boring and tedious so it's easier to put up a wiki and hope some do-gooder will do all the work.
Is that what you think Digital Man's goal is with the wiki? I thought he added much of the documentation there himself.
Is that what you think Digital Man's goal is with the wiki? I thought
he added much of the documentation there himself.
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take the burden off of him.
Is that what you think Digital Man's goal is with the wiki? I thought
he added much of the documentation there himself.
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take the burden off of him.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet documentation to the wiki.
Is that what you think Digital Man's goal is with the wiki? I thought
he added much of the documentation there himself.
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take the burden off of him.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet documentation to the wiki.
Nightfox wrote to Mro <=-
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet documentation to
the wiki.
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take
the burden off of him.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd
think they would be the best people to add Synchronet documentation to
the wiki.
I welcome contributions to the wiki from anyone, but I never expected the majority of the content to come from anyone but me. The wiki was:
A. more convenient for me: I can edit it from anywhere at any time and don't need to convert or publish anything
B. it's available for others to contribute, and they have
I know I'm replying to you and not the original person who made the assumption, but I try to ignore incorrect assertions I see regarding Synchronet. But when I see them repeated (or quoted), I feel compelled to correct. :-)
yeah rob would be the best one to do the documentation but he's busy and lets face it, writing docs sucks. that's why there's all those whatsnew files. it was a good idea at first but became very convoluted.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce.
I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet
documentation to the wiki.
Not necessariuly. Some people are better writers (of documentation) than software developers. So, the wiki is a great idea.
Nightfox wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce.
I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet
documentation to the wiki.
Not necessariuly. Some people are better writers (of documentation) than software developers. So, the wiki is a great idea.
True, but I was mainly saying that Digital Man and Deuce know
Synchronet best, since Digital Man is the main developer and Deuce has been helping with it for quite a while too. If there was another
person dedicated to writing documentation, they would have to learn
about the software from the developers and get to know it really well..
I'm still not sure if anyone knows Synchronet as well as Digital Man
and Deuce. I've been running Synchronet for 9 years and I still ask questions about it from time to time. But part of that is that
Synchronet (thankfully) is still being developed, and things change sometimes and features get added.
Nightfox wrote to Mro <=-
It's clear that you personally don't enjoy writing docs, and I know a
lot of people don't, but not everyone feels that writing docs is so
bad.
From my point of view, I find writing docs to be difficult. It's not so much that I don't like it. I see the value in and appreciate good documentation. It's more that my non linear thought processes don't lend themselves to writing down. So I take my had off to anyone who has the ability to write good documentation. :)
Nightfox wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
I agree. When writing documentation, you have to think outside your
own mindset, since you're trying to explain something you understand to people who don't know about it. It can sometimes be easy to leave out details that may seem obvious to you but are not obvious to someone who
is not familiar with it. Or sometimes you may write some documentation explaining something, then later realize there's a simpler way to
explain it.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd think they would be the best people to add Synchronet documentation to the wiki.
Not necessariuly. Some people are better writers (of documentation) than software developers. So, the wiki is a great idea.
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take
the burden off of him.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd
I know I'm replying to you and not the original person who made the assumption, but I try to ignore incorrect assertions I see regarding Synchronet. But when I see them repeated (or quoted), I feel compelled
It's clear that you personally don't enjoy writing docs, and I know a lot
of people don't,
but not everyone feels that writing docs is so bad.
From my point of view, I find writing docs to be difficult. It's not so much that I don't like it. I see the value in and appreciate good documentation. It's more that my non linear thought processes don't lend themselves to writing down. So I take my had off to anyone who has the ability to write good documentation. :)
From my point of view, I find writing docs to be difficult. It's not so muc TL>that I don't like it. I see the value in and appreciate good documentation. TL>It's more that my non linear thought processes don't lend themselves to writ TL>down. So I take my had off to anyone who has the ability to write good TL>documentation. :)
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Fri May 20 2016 08:47 am
i'm sure he's hoping that other people will contribute and take Mr>> the burden off of him.
Possibly, but nobody knows Synchronet better than him and Deuce. I'd
I know I'm replying to you and not the original person who made the assumption, but I try to ignore incorrect assertions I see regarding Synchronet. But when I see them repeated (or quoted), I feel compelled
yes, but in the past you were looking for other people to take over the burden of writing the documentation. that's why i made that statement.
Mro wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
i know a guy who gets hardware delivered to his house and he figures it out and then writes the software for it. it's a skill. some people
Mro wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
and even if you DO spend all that time writing documentation you might still get those people that just wont read it or complain about it.
you just cant win.
Daryl Stout wrote to TONY LANGDON <=-
When I ran GT Power, the original author, Paul Meiners, wrote that "Documentation is ultimately the author's responsibility"...but he lamented that "I write terrible documentation". :P
While the tagline below may be true, it does help to have decent documentation to make sense out of what is going on, or what one needs
to do.
Daryl
---
ώ OLX 1.53 ώ Real Sysops read the documentation; or at least skim them
yes, but in the past you were looking for other people to take over the burden of writing the documentation. that's why i made that statement.
I don't recall ever saying that.
Not necessariuly. Some people are better writers (of documentation) than software developers. So, the wiki is a great idea.
and even if you DO spend all that time writing documentation you
might still get those people that just wont read it or complain about
it.
Sadly true, that's why we have sayings like RTFM (with emphasis on the F).
maybe there as many people that hate writing documentation as there are those that dont want to read it. :D
I agree though, most of the time, people just want to start using something immediately.
Poindexter Fortran wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
...And unless you're writing documentation *for* software developers, sometimes having someone from your target audience writing the documentation from their perspective makes for a better experience.
mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
why emphasize the 'F' in Read The Fine Manual?? one would think the 'R' should be emphasized more ;)
Nightfox wrote to Mro <=-
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Mro to Nightfox on Fri May 20 2016 22:10:33
maybe there as many people that hate writing documentation as there are those that dont want to read it. :D
True, and I agree, many people don't seem to want to take the time to
read documentation. However, as a user of something, if you get
something new and want to get it going, sometimes you just have to
RTFM. For someone who writes documentation, the hope is that the user will read it so that they won't have to bug you with questions - That's the main motivator behind writing good documentation. At least, it is
for me when I'm writing documentation for something. I think a product should be intuitive and easy enough to figure out most of the time, but for aspects that aren't totally intuitive, good documentation should be
an added value to help the user understand it.
I agree though, most of the time, people just want to start using something immediately.
Mro wrote to Nightfox <=-
Re: Customizing Menu's
By: Nightfox to Mro on Sat May 21 2016 12:16 pm
I agree though, most of the time, people just want to start using something immediately.
maybe that's why there's so many comments in most .conf files. you
HAVE to read the docs are you scroll through and change the settings.
some have a line in there that prevents the server from loading if you dont remove it. ---
why emphasize the 'F' in Read The Fine Manual?? one would think the
'R' should be emphasized more ;)
Because it emphasises that it might end up on their Fine head (at high velocity), if they don't read it! :D
mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
Because it emphasises that it might end up on their Fine head (at high velocity), if they don't read it! :D
hahahahahahahaha!!!
To me, this was one of the strengths of the Linux User Groups of the 1990s. Back then, most of us were discovering how to install and use Linux. Installation was quite difficult back then, and the distributions weren't as polished as they are today, so we'd be sharing and writing down what worked, even if it was just on a mailing list.
Poindexter Fortran wrote to Tony Langdon <=-
I remember install-fests, one person figuring out a show-stopper, one
card from a brand-name manufacturer working while another doesn't,
trying to hand-hack x configs... and we've gotten to a point now where
it usually works.
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