What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people doing it more for show than anything. Main stream religion seems to have lost that.

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On 06-29-20 02:06, Grasshopper wrote to All <=-

@VIA: VERT/ONENESS
What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people
doing it more for show than anything. Main stream religion seems to
have lost that.

A lot of what passes for "religion" these days is about power and control of the people. The Catholic Church started out as an instrument of the Roman Empire, from what I understand, after Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the 4th Century.


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Re: Spirituality
By: Grasshopper to All on Mon Jun 29 2020 02:06 am

What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people doing it more for show than anything. Main stream religio
seems to have lost that.

Because a lot of the people inside is just in it for the power and perks, it seems to me.

Like, you visit a monastery or convent, and only the really old people is in it for vocation. Young members don't want to go
Africa to help people as the old ones did back in the day because it is too much work :-)

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Re: Spirituality
By: Grasshopper to All on Mon Jun 29 2020 02:06 am

What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people doing it

Could you please elaborate? What have you witnessed to support this? I'm curious as to how you've reached this conclusion.

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Vk3jed to Grasshopper on Mon Jun 29 2020 07:19 pm

On 06-29-20 02:06, Grasshopper wrote to All <=-

@VIA: VERT/ONENESS
What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people doing it more for show than anything. Main stream religion seems to have lost that.

A lot of what passes for "religion" these days is about power and control of the people. The Catholic Church started out as an instrument of the Roman Empire, from what I understand, after Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the 4th Century.

... People forget how fast you did a job just how well you did it.

In a case where people will follow the church before the state, it was essential to establish a system where the church became a branch of the
state. The divine right of kings was such a system, where kings became
leaders of men because it was God's will.

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On 06-29-20 09:35, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In a case where people will follow the church before the state, it was essential to establish a system where the church became a branch of the state. The divine right of kings was such a system, where kings became leaders of men because it was God's will.

Yeah, that's another way of explaining it, highlighting that the Church really was an instrument of political power.


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Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Grasshopper on Mon Jun 29 2020 09:31 am

Hello Moondog,

Could you please elaborate? What have you witnessed to support this? I'm curious as to how you've reached this conclusion.

Let me try to answer you. I was a devout Catholic for many, many years. I listened with my heart at the teachings that were given to me in Catechism. I listened with my heart at what the Priest read for the gospel and then the homily. As I grew older I became disheartened at what I saw in the majority of the people and yes, sometimes the Priest himself. I found that for most the words were hollow. Everyone listened but most did not do what was just spoken
in the gospel. I wanted to shout hypocrites during mass. I saw so many as just "whited sepluchers". I am not saying everyone in the church was like that but
it did seem to be almost all. The getting angry because someone is driving too slow to get out of the church parking lot. Or purposefully cutting someone off in the church parking lot because someone's time is more valuable than someone elses. At one time, the Priest himself stated he would try to make the mass shorter so everyone can get home and watch the football game. A "football
game" really? That is more important than hearing the word of God? I have seen these things play out in so many different ways through out my life that I finally decided it was enough.

I think the message Jesus gave was wonderful and a lot could be learned from it. I just feel people have just watered it down so much that it has been cheapened. I have nothing against people who go to church. I just hope they go for the right reasons. I hope they 'open their ears and hear'. But, I feel
that doesn't happen for so many. It is sad. The beautiful messages are right there and yet it might as well not be there for so many. Many will come but
few will listen.

There is more but that may be more of a novel then. So, going to church is not a bad thing. Being Catholic is not a bad thing. It is what people do with it that makes it bad or good. And unfortunately I have seen more of the bad than good.
I was also of the generation where Priests taught 'fire and brim stone' which does not go over well. It is hard to think of a God who would be so spiteful because of not believing a certain way. Is it the believing or is the "good" a person does that makes the world a better place?

Hence, for me, it is more about spirituality. I now feel there are many paths to God. Not just a single one. It is the "goodness" in oneself that leads one to God. The willingness to help your fellow person. To think of others first, regardless of their religion. To respect others regardless. This is Jesus at
his essence. He didn't care about other's religion. He is love. And with love there can be no hate or discrimination. How can anyone with love in their
heart be "bad" because they aren't of another religion. Religion, in my eyes, has caused division. Love knows no religion. I am talking about the "love"
like Jesus had for people. With that, sort of caring, there can be no bad deeds because that would contradict "Love".

I don't know if I conveyed the depths of what I am trying to say or why I made that statement but I hope I have made the start of an impression of that statement.

Peace and Love, Love and peace to all.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Grasshopper to Moondog on Tue Jun 30 2020 01:00 am

Hello Moondog,

Could you please elaborate? What have you witnessed to support this? I'm curious as to how you've reached this conclusion.

Let me try to answer you. I was a devout Catholic for many, many years. I listened with my heart at the teachings that were given to me in Catechism. I listened with
heart at what the Priest read for the gospel and then the homily. As I grew older I became disheartened at what I saw in the majority of the people and yes, sometimes
the Priest himself. I found that for most the words were hollow. Everyone listened but most did not do what was just spoken
in the gospel. I wanted to shout hypocrites during mass. I saw so many as just "whited sepluchers". I am not saying everyone in the church was like that but
it did seem to be almost all. The getting angry because someone is driving too slow to get out of the church parking lot. Or purposefully cutting someone off in the
church parking lot because someone's time is more valuable than someone elses. At one time, the Priest himself stated he would try to make the mass shorter so everyon
can get home and watch the football game. A "football
game" really? That is more important than hearing the word of God? I have seen these things play out in so many different ways through out my life that I finally deci
it was enough.

You know, you have reminded me of a collaborator from Opus we used to have. Very hardcore believer, or so you would think. He was a lying bastard. He would betray,
backstab, lie as to make other people feel bad, lie as to damage the reputation of other people. My (ex)boss once brought the subject to him, and what he did was to
answer somethi g like "Flesh is weak, only God gets to judge me."

So damn wrong man. To claim you believe and then trash it away like that. I am sure the pityful bastard thinks he can sin to his heart's content and then make it right
by confessing five minutes later.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Arelor to Grasshopper on Tue Jun 30 2020 04:28 am

Hello Arelor,

So damn wrong man. To claim you believe and then trash it away like that. I am sure the pityful bastard thinks he can sin to his heart's content and then make it right by confessing five minutes later.

You get it Arelor. That is not how it is suppose to work. Jesus didn't give permission to "harm your fellow" because you can say you are sorry later. I don't want to use "sin" because that has been watered down and to some extent removed from ownership of the action. I really don't like this "Oh, the devil made me do it." B.S. Just another way to say I can "harm others" and feel ok with it. No, you shouldn't feel ok about it and since you took action to harm someone (e.g. with words, physically, emotionally), then one better take action to reverse it if one is really repentitive of that.

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Vk3jed wrote to Moondog <=-

On 06-29-20 09:35, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In a case where people will follow the church before the state, it was essential to establish a system where the church became a branch of the state. The divine right of kings was such a system, where kings became leaders of men because it was God's will.

Yeah, that's another way of explaining it, highlighting that the Church really was an instrument of political power.

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentially following Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any real meaning.


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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Jun 30 2020 11:28 am

On 06-29-20 09:35, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In a case where people will follow the church before the state, it was essential to establish a system where the church became a branch of the state. The divine right of kings was such a system, where kings became leaders of men because it was God's will.

Yeah, that's another way of explaining it, highlighting that the Church real was an instrument of political power.

... There is more kicking done with the tongue than with the feet.

At one time, the church was the state by itself. When man began to look
beyond their basic survival and wonder about how items moved in the sky, or
how seasons worked, I imagine it was easy to establish the existence of an outside source, or architect that lives outside our realm. This became important for laws. Kosher and Halal laws rose from health issues regarding the proper and improper storing and preparation of certain foods. By making some laws as being the laws laid down by a diety, these laws were easier to enforce out of fear of going against the will of a higher power as opposed to the big guy waving a stick saying he's the boss. When the laws became so complex it was hard for the average person to keep track of them, then that laid the groundwork for organized religions and tiered leadership within it.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Grasshopper to Moondog on Tue Jun 30 2020 01:00 am

Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Grasshopper on Mon Jun 29 2020 09:31 am

Hello Moondog,

Could you please elaborate? What have you witnessed to support this? I' curious as to how you've reached this conclusion.

Let me try to answer you. I was a devout Catholic for many, many years. I li ecame disheartened at what I saw in the majority of the people and yes, some in the gospel. I wanted to shout hypocrites during mass. I saw so many as ju it did seem to be almost all. The getting angry because someone is driving me, the Priest himself stated he would try to make the mass shorter so every game" really? That is more important than hearing the word of God? I have se

I think the message Jesus gave was wonderful and a lot could be learned from it. I just feel people have just watered it down so much that it has been ch that doesn't happen for so many. It is sad. The beautiful messages are righ few will listen.

There is more but that may be more of a novel then. So, going to church is n a bad thing. Being Catholic is not a bad thing. It is what people do with it I was also of the generation where Priests taught 'fire and brim stone' whic es the world a better place?

Hence, for me, it is more about spirituality. I now feel there are many path to God. Not just a single one. It is the "goodness" in oneself that leads on to God. The willingness to help your fellow person. To think of others first his essence. He didn't care about other's religion. He is love. And with lov heart be "bad" because they aren't of another religion. Religion, in my eyes like Jesus had for people. With that, sort of caring, there can be no bad de

I don't know if I conveyed the depths of what I am trying to say or why I ma

Peace and Love, Love and peace to all.

Thanks for the elaboration. I was raised Luthern, and may pastor would joke about the folk who were sinners all week, then saints on Sundays. That
didn't stop him from trying.

There were also cliques and politics that played behind the scenes regarding members, as well as those who believed they were holier than everyone else,
yet were the first ones to throw stones and gossip and look down on others.

I can see how for some it may be seen as a required social experience, or
they go through the paces because their peers or someone else they conduct business with is watching. Sitting through the sermon related to social and business connections.

I have an uncle who is a Catholic priest, and he joked the average Catholic only went to church for three occasions - for his baptism, his marriage, and his funeral service. I can say the same for some Lutherns.

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On 06-30-20 22:29, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentially following Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any
real meaning.

This sounds more polirical than theological, and these days, I ignore anything looking remotely like US politics.


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On 06-30-20 22:40, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

At one time, the church was the state by itself. When man began to

I have read that the original origin of religion in prehistoric times was because we became aware of our own mortality, which was hard to deal with, so the idea of an "afterlife" would have been appealing.

look beyond their basic survival and wonder about how items moved in
the sky, or how seasons worked, I imagine it was easy to establish the existence of an outside source, or architect that lives outside our
realm. This became important for laws. Kosher and Halal laws rose

Yes, some things can look like they've been "designed".

from health issues regarding the proper and improper storing and preparation of certain foods. By making some laws as being the laws
laid down by a diety, these laws were easier to enforce out of fear of going against the will of a higher power as opposed to the big guy

Definitely. A have noticed that a number of old prohibitions seem based upon health issues of the times when those parts of religious texts were written and the laws laid down.

waving a stick saying he's the boss. When the laws became so complex
it was hard for the average person to keep track of them, then that
laid the groundwork for organized religions and tiered leadership
within it.

And then those in power discovered they could control the masses...


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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Tue Jun 30 2020 10:29 pm

Vk3jed wrote to Moondog <=-

On 06-29-20 09:35, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In a case where people will follow the church before the state, it was essential to establish a system where the church became a branch of the state. The divine right of kings was such a system, where kings became leaders of men because it was God's will.

Yeah, that's another way of explaining it, highlighting that the Church really was an instrument of political power.

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentiall following Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any real meaning.

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

Seems like there will always be one vocal froup that likes 70% of what they hear, and the 30% they don't like at that moment will be petitioned to be chan ged to suit their lifestyle or not offend their sensibilities.

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Wed Jul 01 2020 09:14 pm

Definitely. A have noticed that a number of old prohibitions seem based upo health issues of the times when those parts of religious texts were written the laws laid down.

The Egyptians accidentally discovered a form of hygiene from the belief that evil spirits could get trapped in long, unmanagable hair and beards, and
their presence will affect your overall health and sanity. The earliest barbers were preists who could excorcise demons by disposing of the offending hair. Lopping off nasty hair probably cured people of lice and other parasites, as well as staved off germs and bacteria living in the hair.

That may be the origin of why barbers in the middle ages and up into the late 19th century also acted as surgeons and dentists. Blood letting originated
as pruging evil spirits, then was believed to purge contaminates from the blood.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Grasshopper on Tue Jun 30 2020 11:00 pm

Yes,
I am also not saying that every Catholic / Christian is like this. I am saying that I have witnessed the majority to be like that. I feel that as long as the person is making the concerted effort to help human kind, religion no longer matters to me. Kindness, love and respect is what it boils down to.

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Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

On 06-30-20 22:29, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentially following Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any
real meaning.

This sounds more polirical than theological, and these days, I ignore anything looking remotely like US politics.

No, it is theological, not political. Political Correctness/Wokeness is a religion.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Grasshopper to Moondog on Wed Jul 01 2020 10:44 pm

Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Grasshopper on Tue Jun 30 2020 11:00 pm

Yes,
I am also not saying that every Catholic / Christian is like this. I am sayi dness, love and respect is what it boils down to.

Regardless of practice, most folk in general can agree on a "do unto others"
or "treat others as you wish to be treated" philospohy.

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Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

On 06-30-20 22:29, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentially following Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any
real meaning.

This sounds more polirical than theological, and these days, I ignore anything looking remotely like US politics.

No, it is theological, not political. Political Correctness/Wokeness
is a religion.

Of the worst kind. More cultish in my view.

Daniel Traechin

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: calcmandan to Dennisk on Fri Jul 03 2020 08:06 pm

Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

On 06-30-20 22:29, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

The Church is dead because it is no longer a leader, but a follower. Mainstream churches more or less adapt to the
changing cultural more of society. At most, they will resist a little. When the Church is essentially following
Liberalism, then Church becomes nothing of any
real meaning.

This sounds more polirical than theological, and these days, I ignore anything looking remotely like US politics.

No, it is theological, not political. Political Correctness/Wokeness is a religion.

Of the worst kind. More cultish in my view.

Daniel Traechin

... Visit me at gopher://gcpp.world

Politics and religion always end up interwingled so badly...

This reminds me once I was doing some unformal research about Islam's views on slavery. I reached a forum where somebody was
asking if it was legit in the eyes of Alah to have sex with war slaves. According to their scriptures, it totally is, but
somebody popped up explaining why it was not ok according to Allah.

The whole situation struck me as "Hmmm.... ok, our religion endorses behavior that is not politically sustainable, so I am
going to come up with a way to override our scriptures in order to make our religion politically correct."

I agree with Dennisk here since the Catholic church has been doing something similar since the middle ages. If you have decided
in a coulcil that God wants you to kill homosexuals, if you decide to override such decision because it is
politically ugly you are basically overriding the word of God for convenience.

But then the debate gets ugly, because you have to check how councils aprove scriptures as valid or reject them, which is a can
of worms in itself.

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On 07-02-20 11:16, Moondog wrote to Grasshopper <=-

Regardless of practice, most folk in general can agree on a "do unto others" or "treat others as you wish to be treated" philospohy.

This is a common thread among belief systems.


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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Arelor to calcmandan on Fri Jul 03 2020 06:11 pm

Politics and religion always end up interwingled so badly...

This reminds me once I was doing some unformal research about Islam's views asking if it was legit in the eyes of Alah to have sex with war slaves. Acco somebody popped up explaining why it was not ok according to Allah.

The whole situation struck me as "Hmmm.... ok, our religion endorses behavio going to come up with a way to override our scriptures in order to make our

I agree with Dennisk here since the Catholic church has been doing something in a coulcil that God wants you to kill homosexuals, if you decide to overri politically ugly you are basically overriding the word of God for convenienc

But then the debate gets ugly, because you have to check how councils aprove of worms in itself.

Funny you mention slavery. Indentured servitude stories are all over the
Bible and other texts, and technically slave ownership in the US was intended to be indentured until a slave owner won a court decision to keep his slaves indefinitely.

I've always wondered how the contracts or obligations were written? If slave
provided a child fathered by the slave owner, was this consentual or obligatory? Were there special or customary rights to be provided for the children? In the sotry of Abraham and Sarah, Sarah provided the Egyptian
slave named Hagar to provide a son for Abraham. This resulted in the birth
of Ishmael. After Sarah gave birth to Isaac, Sarah demanded Abraham to kick Hagar and Ishmael out of the house and cast them out to the desert. He fed them bread and water, then sent them along their way. That's wild.

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Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Grasshopper on Thu Jul 02 2020 11:16 am

Regardless of practice, most folk in general can agree on a "do unto others" or "treat others as you wish to be treated" philospohy.

This philosophy is prevalent throughout religions for at least 2500 years, and likely far longer.

Even Hammurabi's code had a basic version of it with "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and that was nearly 4000 years ago.

DaiTengu

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Man I agree!

On 01:06 29/06 , Grasshopper wrote:

What happened to the spirituality aspect of religion? I see people doing it more for show than anything. Main stream religion seems to have lost that.

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Jul 04 2020 11:24 am

I've always wondered how the contracts or obligations were written? If slav
provided a child fathered by the slave owner, was this consentual or obligatory? Were there special or customary rights to be provided for the children? In the sotry of Abraham and Sarah, Sarah provided the Egyptian slave named Hagar to provide a son for Abraham. This resulted in the birth of Ishmael. After Sarah gave birth to Isaac, Sarah demanded Abraham to kick Hagar and Ishmael out of the house and cast them out to the desert. He fed them bread and water, then sent them along their way. That's wild.

What's wild is that, that far back in history, there was a person named SARAH and a person named HAGAR. How is that possible?

I often wonder was there a Lewis living next door to Abraham?

A chad?

A spencer?

the names are what make it so hard to buy into...

I suppose most of those names are modern-translations into the closest name of the time to something we know so we read Sarah instead of Shara^seo or something,.. But still, i would prefer the names to be as close to what they were as possible.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Zombie Mambo to Moondog on Fri Aug 06 2021 02:16 pm

Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Jul 04 2020 11:24 am

I've always wondered how the contracts or obligations were written? If s
provided a child fathered by the slave owner, was this consentual or obligatory? Were there special or customary rights to be provided for th children? In the sotry of Abraham and Sarah, Sarah provided the Egyptian slave named Hagar to provide a son for Abraham. This resulted in the bir of Ishmael. After Sarah gave birth to Isaac, Sarah demanded Abraham to k Hagar and Ishmael out of the house and cast them out to the desert. He f them bread and water, then sent them along their way. That's wild.

What's wild is that, that far back in history, there was a person named SARA and a person named HAGAR. How is that possible?

I often wonder was there a Lewis living next door to Abraham?

A chad?

A spencer?

the names are what make it so hard to buy into...

I suppose most of those names are modern-translations into the closest name the time to something we know so we read Sarah instead of Shara^seo or something,.. But still, i would prefer the names to be as close to what they were as possible.

Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
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I believe the names are Americanized as this story is was first written in Hebrew.

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: Obuing to Zombie Mambo on Sat Sep 18 2021 10:09 pm

I believe the names are Americanized as this story is was first written in Hebrew.

Americanized? The King James bible was published before America even existed.

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I choose to have a more pagan belief

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Re: Re: Spirituality
By: sommopfle to Andeddu on Thu Jan 27 2022 09:08 pm

I choose to have a more pagan belief

choose to quote
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