Another piece of history gone because of Microsnobs.
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/01/01/netscape.html
$ The Millionaire $
Park Avenue Place
Surrey, B.C., Canada Û*Û
Another piece of history gone because of Microsnobs.
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/01/01/netscape.html
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Yep. But some people gotta blame Microsoft for every fucking thing!
I'm surprised they don't blame MS for 9/11.
Cheap shot artists make me sick.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: Finnigann to ALL on Wed Jan 02 2008 07:28 pm
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Yep. But some people gotta blame Microsoft for every fucking thing!
I'm surprised they don't blame MS for 9/11.
Cheap shot artists make me sick.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: Ralph Smole to Finnigann on Wed Jan 02 2008 19:50:00
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Yep. But some people gotta blame Microsoft for every fucking thing!
Uh, Microsoft targetted Netscape for destruction. There was a large
trial that you might have heard about. Forty (40) charges were laid against Microsoft. They were found guilty on *EVERY* count. On top of which, after listening to Bill Gates personal testimony given under
oath and on the stand, the judge stated that in his entire career he
had never ever seen such a blatant and obvious (and inept and bungling) case of perjury as the testimony Gates had just given. Then Gates made
a whopping contribution to GWB's presidential campaign, and the *FIRST* act performed by GWB as President was to instruct the DOJ to let
Microsoft off with a slap on the wrist. You are probably too young to remember this story. Or have Selective Amnesia, due to being Billy's butt-slave.
Cheap shot artists make me sick.
Cheap shots are fine with me, when they are bang on target.
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Yep. But some people gotta blame Microsoft for every fucking thing!
I'm surprised they don't blame MS for 9/11.
Cheap shot artists make me sick.
Microsoft isn't blameless in this. They DID give it away when they were loosing the market shares to Netscape.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: Finnigann to Ralph Smole on Wed Jan 02 2008 10:56 pm
Microsoft isn't blameless in this. They DID give it away when they were loosing the market shares to Netscape.
From what I understand, it's not so much that they "gave it away" as it was that they made it next to impossible to remove it. While Netscape had to actively seek contracts with manufacturers to get their browser installed
on new machines, Microsoft automatically got to put it there. Since the application and operating system markets are separate markets, they
unfairly leveraged their monopoly in one market to strengthen another.
It's illegal, and they were found guilty of the crime. However, once Bush was elected, the DOJ largely became uninterested in doing anything further and pretty much just let the stuff die.
The result is that the web is a broken mess of code for IE and then all other browsers, and developers constantly have to work around the inferiority of IE because it's installed on all Windows machines by
default.
-- MysticOne
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to MysticOne on Thu Jan 03 2008 07:50 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill
Gates was smart wasn't he?
Not if you remove it properly.
Jason - W8ZZU
Total Logged Contacts = 1620
Last Contact: K2BET on 40 CW. Location: MI. 12/15/07 at 19:21 UTC
Netscape the company is dead, and Netscape the product is as well. While it code lives on in Mozilla/Firefox, Microsoft was pretty much responsible for illegally using their monopoly status to crush it.
I'm surprised they don't blame MS for 9/11.
No, there are other people responsible for that. However, it wouldn't be surprising if somewhere in the chain of events, a hacked/hijacked Windows machine wasn't part of the mess.
Cheap shot artists make me sick.
It's not a cheap shot. It's honest to goodness history.
Another piece of history gone because of Microsnobs.
Who cares?
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
Not if you remove it properly.
Oh? And how is that?
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to W8ZZU on Thu Jan 03 2008 09:42 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
Not if you remove it properly.
Oh? And how is that?
It is called RTFM like everything else you like to spout off about.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to W8ZZU on Thu Jan 03 2008 09:42 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system.
Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
Not if you remove it properly.
Oh? And how is that?
It is called RTFM like everything else you like to spout off about.
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to MysticOne on Thu Jan 03 2008 07:50 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
You can get rid of it, but, it's not something any average computer user can really be expected to do. In the end, even with the best of outcomes, it's probably still going to hose a few things. It's better to not use a Microso operating system at all, and then there's no IE to remove. :)
Oh? And how is that?
It is called RTFM like everything else you like to spout off about.
Your friends must really feel sorry for the way you treat them. That's a real shame.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to MysticOne on Thu Jan 03 2008 07:50 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill
Gates was smart wasn't he?
You can get rid of it, but, it's not something any average computer user
can really be expected to do. In the end, even with the best of outcomes, it's probably still going to hose a few things. It's better to not use a Microsoft operating system at all, and then there's no IE to remove. :)
-- MysticOne
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: MysticOne to The Millionaire on Fri Jan 04 2008 07:38 am
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to MysticOne on Thu Jan 03 2008 07:50 am
Yeah and if you get rid of it, it screws up your whole system. Bill Gates was smart wasn't he?
You can get rid of it, but, it's not something any average computer user can really be expected to do. In the end, even with the best of outcomes, it's probably still going to hose a few things. It's better to not use a Microso operating system at all, and then there's no IE to remove. :)
I'm not really sure why removal of IE was such an issue anyway. You
could always install other browsers and make them your default browser
and never use IE for the web at all (even though it is still
installed). <shrug>
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: The Millionaire to W8ZZU on Thu Jan 03 2008 10:56 pm
Oh? And how is that?
It is called RTFM like everything else you like to spout off about.
Your friends must really feel sorry for the way you treat them. That's a
real shame.
Oh, I don't treat my friends that way, just retards like you. It's a real shame that you don't even have half a brain.
Jason - W8ZZU
Total Logged Contacts = 1620
Last Contact: K2BET on 40 CW. Location: MI. 12/15/07 at 19:21 UTC
I'm not really sure why removal of IE was such an issue anyway. You could always install other browsers and make them your default browser and never use IE for the web at all (even though it is still installed). <shrug>
always install other browsers and make them your default browser and never u IE for the web at all (even though it is still installed). <shrug>
Oh, I don't treat my friends that way, just retards like you. It's a real shame that you don't even have half a brain.
Oh? And how is that?
It is called RTFM like everything else you like to spout off
about.
Your friends must really feel sorry for the way you treat them. That'sreal shame.
a
Oh, I don't treat my friends that way, just retards like you. It's a real shame that you don't even have half a brain.
Just because I am not a genius like you, that makes me a retard huh? Wow must be nice to be so perfect.
Oh, I don't treat my friends that way, just retards like you. It's a real shame that you don't even have half a brain.
You know something Jason... You should really leave the 'special' people alone.. =o)
I am not a genius and never claimed to be.. I can however read simple documentation and if that makes me a genius then so be it.
I am not a genius and never claimed to be.. I can however read simple documentation and if that makes me a genius then so be it.
Based on what I see nowadays, if you can read you're a genius. If you can spell(without using a friggin' spell-checker), you're Einstein. Today's younger generation is ignorant when it comes to basic grammar.
Based on what I see nowadays, if you can read you're a genius. If you can spell(without using a friggin' spell-checker), you're Einstein. Today's younger generation is ignorant when it comes to basic grammar.
Re: Netscape fades to black
By: Ralph Smole to W8ZZU on Sat Jan 05 2008 11:10 am
Based on what I see nowadays, if you can read you're a genius. If you can spell(without using a friggin' spell-checker), you're Einstein. Today's younger generation is ignorant when it comes to basic grammar.
I can do both! But, I really suck at math. :(
-- MysticOne
I can do both! But, I really suck at math. :(
Start --> Accessories --> Calculator. ;) (didn't even need to look
that one up, enjoy)... Happy New Year all!
Maybe they will go away, huh? :)
Based on what I see nowadays, if you can read you're a genius. If you can spell(without using a friggin' spell-checker), you're Einstein. Today's youn generation is ignorant when it comes to basic grammar.
Start --> Accessories --> Calculator. ;) (didn't even need to look
that one up, enjoy)... Happy New Year all!
Maybe they will go away, huh? :)
Nope, probably not.. Only the twit list can make that happen.. =o)
Start --> Accessories --> Calculator. ;) (didn't even need to look that one up, enjoy)... Happy New Year all!
Isn't it easier to just click run and type calc? <shrug>
Isn't it easier to just click run and type calc? <shrug>
Best of all, just type 'bc'....
Not all of us young people are like that Ralph...
Netscape the company is dead, and Netscape the product is as well. While its code lives on in Mozilla/Firefox, Microsoft was pretty much responsible for illegally using their monopoly status to crush it.
Netscape doesn't read as dead. It's morphed into Mozilla/Firefox.
Yep. But some people gotta blame Microsoft for every fucking thing!
Uh, Microsoft targetted Netscape for destruction. There was a large trial that you might have heard about. Forty (40) charges were laid against Microsoft. They were found guilty on *EVERY* count. On top of which,
after listening to Bill Gates personal testimony given under oath and on
the stand, the judge stated that in his entire career he had never ever
seen such a blatant and obvious (and inept and bungling) case of perjury
as the testimony Gates had just given. Then Gates made a whopping contribution to GWB's presidential campaign, and the *FIRST* act performed by GWB as President was to instruct the DOJ to let Microsoft off with a
slap on the wrist. You are probably too young to remember this story. Or have Selective Amnesia, due to being Billy's butt-slave.
If people blame Microsoft for every fucking thing, it's because every fucking thing that goes wrong is Microsoft's fault.
Microsoft isn't blameless in this. They DID give it away when they were
loosing the market shares to Netscape.
From what I understand, it's not so much that they "gave it away" as it was that they made it next to impossible to remove it. While Netscape had to actively seek contracts with manufacturers to get their browser installed on new machines, Microsoft automatically got to put it there. Since the application and operating system markets are separate markets, they unfairly leveraged their monopoly in one market to strengthen another. It's illegal, and they were found guilty of the crime. However, once Bush was elected, the DOJ largely became uninterested in doing anything further and pretty much just
let the stuff die.
The result is that the web is a broken mess of code for IE and then all other browsers, and developers constantly have to work around the inferiority of IE because it's installed on all Windows machines by default.
I remember the senate testimony Gates gave. Arlan Spector could not
beleive that Micorosoft enjoyed a 35% profit margin when many others
had declared 3-5% was all the market could stand.
It took several asks to get BG to admit the figure. And to admit it was
the highest in the computer industry.
Of course the follow thru was a sham. I think the made MS promise to fix Windows 95... of course 98 was about to be released, wasn't it?
I think, back at the time, some college prof (in computers of course)
wrote a simple program to show that MS was over-stating the task.
I'lll give you some time to get over the shock of that last revelation.
What MS feared over everything else was Netscape taking over the desktop
to where MS would be a choice... too bad for them.
I'm not really sure why removal of IE was such an issue anyway. You could
always install other browsers and make them your default browser and never >> use IE for the web at all (even though it is still installed). <shrug>
The point was that Netscape could *never* be the only browser on a machine, and
could never negotiate contracts to that effect. Microsoft would always have their browser on the system and, in some cases, actually forbid computer companies from including rival software alongside it.
Start --> Accessories --> Calculator. ;) (didn't even need to look that one up, enjoy)... Happy New Year all!
Isn't it easier to just click run and type calc? <shrug>
Start --> Programs/All Programs --> Accessories --> Calculator
;) maybe you should have looked it up.. ;)
Isn't it easier to just click run and type calc? <shrug>
Best of all, just type 'bc'....
Doesn't work here.
If people blame Microsoft for every fucking thing, it's because every fucking thing that goes wrong is Microsoft's fault.
I wouldn't go that far.. I do blame them for a lot.. and the most asinine example is microsoft selling security software for windows...
Sorry, but I really don't agree too much on that end... As far as the browser is concerned, they included one that gets updated with their OS.. name an OS with any kind of end-user centric status that doesn't include a default browser, that gets updates with the OS...
I just feel that IE4-6 rightly gained the lead here... I do feel that IE
is probably not what people should use these days, but this isn't 1999.
I also hate MS practices in abusing politics, and skating around other issues... I'm glad that the samba guys stuck out out in the EU court systems, and that hopefully more API information will be open for compatability.. MS does plenty of things that make me sick.. the whole browser wars thing is imho a bit of revisionist history... I don't know a single web application developer from the late 90's that would have chosen NN over IE after version 4.x of both were out...
I don't see a problem with including a utility application with an
operating system, when people *expect* to have one there... All the major linux distributions at the time were including a browser.
This I do agree with... however, NN had it's own levels of dysfunction,
that in quite a few ways was far worse than IE's rendering issues... IE4
was a dream compared to NN4 to create web pages for... especially in compliance mode... NN4 is a large part of the reason I abandoned all hope for dhtml of any kind until just a few years ago... I find that Opera 8-9 and Firefox 1-2 did a much better job than IE6 did...
The IE headaches are more recent than the 1999-2002 era when IE was developed from the 4.x to the 6.x versions... Firefox wasn't even in a really functional stage until the beginning of 2004 (and that includes the Gecko rendering engine)... that's at least 5 years with IE being one of the better browsing options. Aside from Opera and Konqueror, one of which isn't/wasn't an option for windows at the time... Opera having its' own issues with their JS engine.
Just pointing this out... as it isn't entirely MSs fault we have as many crappy websites out there as we do... it would be imho worse had IE never existed, and we got stuck with Netscape's Layers model.. *shudder*
Well, look how many people were willing to put something on their computer for an extra $5 or so off the price... The OEMs didn't *HAVE* to make IE the only thing, they wanted a price break, that was the deal.. they could have gone through other channel vendors, and paid the straight OEM pricing...
To be honest, the OEM dealings are imho a bit shadey... including the browser with the OS, was what I think something that was expected... They were one of the last OSes to include one.
I wouldn't go that far.. I do blame them for a lot.. and the most
asinine example is microsoft selling security software for windows...
I wouldn't go that far either. But hyperbole deserves hyperbole...
We had some standards back then too. They should've developed to standards, and both browsers should've rendered them properly. However, because it's never been in Microsoft's best interest to foster compatibility, why would they? They don't even do it today, and fight it tooth and nail. Also, look at
the lawsuit Sun Microsystems filed againt them with regard to Java, and why Microsoft no longer includes a JRE by default.
I don't see a problem with including a utility application with an
operating system, when people *expect* to have one there... All the major >> linux distributions at the time were including a browser.
Again, the problem isn't that they included an application. It's that they entered into predatory agreements that made it impossible for anyone to compete
with them, and they did it by leveraging their monopoly status in the operating
system business.
This I do agree with... however, NN had it's own levels of dysfunction,
that in quite a few ways was far worse than IE's rendering issues... IE4
was a dream compared to NN4 to create web pages for... especially in
compliance mode... NN4 is a large part of the reason I abandoned all hope >> for dhtml of any kind until just a few years ago... I find that Opera 8-9
and Firefox 1-2 did a much better job than IE6 did...
Interestingly enough, Netscape created JavaScript. But, I don't think they really got the opportunity to exploit its true potential before going belly-up.
The IE headaches are more recent than the 1999-2002 era when IE was
developed from the 4.x to the 6.x versions... Firefox wasn't even in a
really functional stage until the beginning of 2004 (and that includes the >> Gecko rendering engine)... that's at least 5 years with IE being one of the >> better browsing options. Aside from Opera and Konqueror, one of which
isn't/wasn't an option for windows at the time... Opera having its' own
issues with their JS engine.
I don't know. That entire time, I used Linux, and did my best to never use Windows. I didn't really have any problems with websites unless they required
ActiveX, which was (and still is) IE-specific.
Just pointing this out... as it isn't entirely MSs fault we have as many
crappy websites out there as we do... it would be imho worse had IE never
existed, and we got stuck with Netscape's Layers model.. *shudder*
Well, I don't know. There's not really any way to know what would've happened
now. It isn't Microsoft's fault directly that so many web developers were lazy
bastards who couldn't bother to develop properly, but, they enabled it by providing so many IE-specific things that were never part of the standards. So, I guess this part is just a matter of opinion.
Well, look how many people were willing to put something on their computer >> for an extra $5 or so off the price... The OEMs didn't *HAVE* to make IE
the only thing, they wanted a price break, that was the deal.. they could
have gone through other channel vendors, and paid the straight OEM
pricing...
To be honest, the OEM dealings are imho a bit shadey... including the
browser with the OS, was what I think something that was expected... They >> were one of the last OSes to include one.
I think the problem here was that there were OEMs who wanted to put competing products on the machines, and Microsoft wouldn't allow it.
Interestingly enough, their security software is actually pretty easy to use. Whether or not it's accurate/reliable, I don't know. My father-in-law uses it
on his machines (same software across two or three different XP boxen) and it's
consistent and easy for him to work with. If only other Microsoft products were that way...
I think the problem here was that there were OEMs who wanted to put competing products on the machines, and Microsoft wouldn't allow it.
That's pretty much what I said... the OEM dealings were shady.. however, nothing was stopping the OEM from paying an additional $5 per unit, and doing it under different terms.
There was no such thing as a standards compliant browser in those days. Netscape wasn't any more standards compliant in any regard at the time.
I fully understand this... as I said, I don't agree with their OEM and ISP dealings.. I was only stating that including the browser was probably the right thing to do from an OS standpoint... same for a media player.
I'm mainly refering to writing web based applications.. I always liked to create a feeling similar to an offline application. In the early days I would use hidden framesets with javascript loaded data... the hardest
issues to deal with were netscapes stupid layers model, that made the breakup (hiding of certain sections) of forms very cumbersome to say the least. I think that ActiveX wasn't a horrible idea.. I feel that the security settings, and sandboxing should have been a higher priority... I also think that it did make for some interesting progressions... I think that most of what any activex could do thin can now be accomplished with a number of fairly typical plugins (flash mainly, java, and arguably silverlight), and ajax-style techniques.
Umn.. could you cite some specific examples? I mean ActiveX is one, the blink tag is another.. but the early MS dom for document.all was before the w3c had settled on the DOM we have today... NN was using it's own non-standard implimentation (document.layers)... neither is actually all that great... my preference today is xhtml + css + js/dom .. it tends to work the most consistantly, even with IE6 being the bastard it is, isn't
too hard to make work.
Isn't it easier to just click run and type calc? <shrug>
Best of all, just type 'bc'....
Doesn't work here.
Here:
http://tinyurl.com/2w9r6
That'll fix you right up!
But the developer tools and environment are pretty damned nice...
Here:
http://tinyurl.com/2w9r6
That'll fix you right up!
:) I do have a Pentium 2-400 with like 96 MB ram sitting around.. Think it would do well there?
I have learned a few *nix commands from working on the Unix box at work, Yes Unix.
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