• lossy or FLAC or CD

    From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Thursday, July 30, 2020 08:19:00
    Hello Nightfox!

    ** On Thursday 30.07.20 - 01:41, nightfox wrote to Ogg:

    I had exactly that mentality too, especially back when iTunes was
    offering poor 128Kbps quality songs at $1 each. I thought *that* was
    robbery. Instead, I only purchased tunes from services that offered
    at least 384Kbps.

    I wouldn't want to buy music in any lossy compressed format, no matter
    what bit rate. I'd rather buy music in a lossless format like FLAC or
    on CD.

    I didn't "want" to either. :( But for an individual song or two, or for the occassional album, the convenience of getting the tunes right away was rather nice.

    One place that I favoured was Puretracks. Others were CD Baby and
    Magnatune. The two former offered traditional commercial artists, but
    they closed operations after a few years. Magnatune is nearly 20 yrs
    strong - and only offers independent artists. Magnatune used to offer per album pricing. They switched to a new unique model.

    But today, the prices set for buying an album in FLAC seems to be too high imho. Interestingly, many places that sell FLAC versions are still in business after many years.

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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Ogg on Thursday, July 30, 2020 09:16:00
    On 30 Jul 2020, Ogg said the following...

    One place that I favoured was Puretracks.

    I remember Puretracks. I bought a lot of music through them, they actually
    had a pretty good selection, there were only a few things that I wanted that they didn't have.

    Was sad to see when I got the email that they were shutting down.

    Jay

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ogg on Thursday, July 30, 2020 12:02:42
    Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to All on Thu Jul 30 2020 08:19 am

    I wouldn't want to buy music in any lossy compressed format, no
    matter what bit rate. I'd rather buy music in a lossless format
    like FLAC or on CD.

    I didn't "want" to either. :( But for an individual song or two, or for the occassional album, the convenience of getting the tunes right away was rather nice.

    One place that I favoured was Puretracks. Others were CD Baby and Magnatune. The two former offered traditional commercial artists, but they closed operations after a few years. Magnatune is nearly 20 yrs strong - and only offers independent artists. Magnatune used to offer per album pricing. They switched to a new unique model.

    But today, the prices set for buying an album in FLAC seems to be too high imho. Interestingly, many places that sell FLAC versions are still in business after many years.

    I've bought one or two albums in FLAC format. I've seen sites that sell music in FLAC format, though the selection doesn't seem as extensive as what's available on CD (which is why I often default to just buying the CD). In one instance though, the FLAC version of an album was just $2 more than the MP3 version. It was something like $12 for MP3s and $14 for FLAC or something. It almost felt a bit high, but I figured that's about what a new music CD would cost anyway. And why would I want to buy music in a lossy compressed format? I can convert it to MP3 myself.

    Nightfox

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sunday, August 02, 2020 14:42:00
    Hello Nightfox!

    ** On Thursday 30.07.20 - 15:02, nightfox wrote to Ogg:

    I've bought one or two albums in FLAC format. I've seen sites that
    sell music in FLAC format, though the selection doesn't seem as
    extensive as what's available on CD (which is why I often default to
    just buying the CD). In one instance though, the FLAC version of an
    album was just $2 more than the MP3 version. It was something like
    $12 for MP3s and $14 for FLAC or something.

    WHERE did you find FLAC versions at $14? The few places that I've looked
    at (in the distant past) have always had prices in the $25+ range.


    It almost felt a bit high, but I figured that's about what a new music
    CD would cost anyway. And why would I want to buy music in a lossy compressed format? I can convert it to MP3 myself.

    Sometimes, a 384Kbps version is "good enough" for me! LOL

    But I totally agree with you. I found it abhorrent that iTunes initially offered only 128Kbps mp3 versions. It only makes sense because their
    target market were the portable player iPod users. But for me, I
    preferred to burn to CD so that I could enjoy tunes on a conventional hi-
    fi system. 128Kbps versions burned to CD sounded like they were being
    pushed through a saw-tooth filter. The bass was often too boomy.

    I was totally jealous of people who boasted acquiring much less lossy ogg vorbis versions of their tunes. But for me, still on dialup at that time, that was a difficult market to participate in.

    I learned to settle with either a portable USB-based player (mine was one
    of the Creative Labs players) and plugging that into the car audio system,
    or some music on CD for the car. In the car, most of the material was
    "good enough".

    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into
    the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Warpslide on Sunday, August 02, 2020 15:13:00
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Thursday 30.07.20 - 05:16, warpslide wrote to Ogg:

    One place that I favoured was Puretracks.

    I remember Puretracks. I bought a lot of music through them, they
    actually had a pretty good selection, there were only a few things
    that I wanted that they didn't have.

    Was sad to see when I got the email that they were shutting down.

    The cost of licensing rights probably caught up with them. Maybe if they
    had better marketing (like a few TV ads) then maybe more people would have been redirected to their services.

    Android players had not caught the imagination of users, yet. The generic players from the likes of Creative Labs just didn't surpass the iPod movement.

    Puretracks probably just ran out of money too fast to wait out the changes
    in the market.

    iTunes and the major record labels were in bed with each other. According
    to one book I read about that industry, iTunes found ways to favour the blessings of the record labels. The record labels adjusted their
    liscensing requirement based on who they would support. Puretracks got
    shut out.

    Another service I used was LeapFrog (or something like that). They offered totally free and drm-free downloads. Fully legit. I found ways to circumvent the ads and get on with my downloads. Their operating model didn't seem to last very long though. I don't think they even made it into
    a full 18 months of operations. But I acquired far more material from
    then than I did from iTunes in 5 years.

    The rising of the digital music market fascinated me. I thought it would
    have been fun to be involved with the production, maintenance and distribution of it. The folks behind services like Spotify and Magnatune must be having a blast.

    I actually participated as a member in some of the activities with the initial build-up of mp3.com. But I came along during the "peak" when
    things started to take a nasty turn for its demise.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ogg on Sunday, August 02, 2020 19:54:11
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 02:42 pm

    I've bought one or two albums in FLAC format. I've seen sites that
    sell music in FLAC format, though the selection doesn't seem as
    extensive as what's available on CD (which is why I often default to
    just buying the CD). In one instance though, the FLAC version of an
    album was just $2 more than the MP3 version. It was something like
    $12 for MP3s and $14 for FLAC or something.

    WHERE did you find FLAC versions at $14? The few places that I've looked at (in the distant past) have always had prices in the $25+ range.

    One of my favorite musicians is Mark Knopfler (he was the main guy in the band Dire Straits), and his web site sells his music & other merchandise. I went to one of his concerts several years ago, and they had live recordings of his shows at multiple locations (including my location), and from what I remember, they were about $14 for the FLAC version of the album.

    It almost felt a bit high, but I figured that's about what a new
    music CD would cost anyway. And why would I want to buy music in a
    lossy compressed format? I can convert it to MP3 myself.

    Sometimes, a 384Kbps version is "good enough" for me! LOL

    People always used to say 128kbit was enough. I've listened to a lot of 128kbit MP3s and they sounded good to me.. The last time I tried a listen, I had a hard time telling the difference between 128kbit and 320kbit. Perhaps if I listened close with headphones, I can tell a difference.

    But I totally agree with you. I found it abhorrent that iTunes initially offered only 128Kbps mp3 versions. It only makes sense because their target market were the portable player iPod users. But for me, I preferred to burn to CD so that I could enjoy tunes on a conventional hi- fi system. 128Kbps versions burned to CD sounded like they were being pushed through a saw-tooth filter. The bass was often too boomy.

    I've never actually had a high-quality hi-fi music player.. In the past, I've almost alawys listened to music on a portable player like a Walkman or portable CD player with headphones. I had a boom box stereo at home for quite a while, which was a fairly average (but decent) dual-cassette AM/FM stereo. More recently (in the past 12+ years or so), I usually listen to music on a portable MP3 player or in my car. So I'd probably have a hard time telling the difference between 128kbit and a higher-quality audio file, but I'd still prefer to have a lossless copy somewhere..

    I was totally jealous of people who boasted acquiring much less lossy ogg vorbis versions of their tunes. But for me, still on dialup at that time, that was a difficult market to participate in.

    Yeah, I remember when I first discovered MP3s and I realized I could download a song over dialup in a much more reasonable time than something like a WAV file.. I thought it was really cool.

    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

    I've heard some somewhat differing stories about that. I worked at Intel for a while, and when I was new, during the new employee orientation, someone mentioned that the MP3 codec was first developed by someone or a group at Intel and then they didn't know what to do with it, so they ended up selling the patent to Fraunhofer. But I'm not sure how true that is, since I haven't been able to find anything to back up that story.

    Nightfox

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Monday, August 03, 2020 01:33:57
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Nightfox to Ogg on Sun Aug 02 2020 07:54 pm

    People always used to say 128kbit was enough. I've listened to a lot of 128kbit MP3s and they sounded good to me.. The last time I tried a listen, I had a hard time telling the difference between 128kbit and 320kbit. Perhaps if I listened close with headphones, I can tell a difference.

    It all depends what you're listening to it through. Back when I was either listening to downloaded music through cheap computer speakers, or piping it through the tape player in a 1980-something used car, 128kbit didn't sound any different than CD.... Once I started putting decent audio equipment in my vehicles and getting decent headphones for use at home and on the go, 128Kbit very quickly showed it's shortcomings. 384 is generally fine though.
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Ogg on Monday, August 03, 2020 20:05:00
    On 08-02-20 14:42, Ogg wrote to All <=-

    But I totally agree with you. I found it abhorrent that iTunes
    initially offered only 128Kbps mp3 versions. It only makes sense
    because their target market were the portable player iPod users. But
    for me, I preferred to burn to CD so that I could enjoy tunes on a conventional hi- fi system. 128Kbps versions burned to CD sounded like they were being pushed through a saw-tooth filter. The bass was often
    too boomy.

    Yes, for a hifi system, you want PCM or lossless compression like FLAC. I'm getting more sensitive to compression artifacts as time goes by too. MP3 sounds "OK", but it's nothing like lossless.

    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

    Now that I would be interested in! :)


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Monday, August 03, 2020 07:06:21
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Nightfox to Ogg on Sun Aug 02 2020 07:54 pm

    People always used to say 128kbit was enough. I've listened to a lot of 128kbit MP3s and they sounded good to me.. The last time I tried a listen, had a hard time telling the difference between 128kbit and 320kbit. Perhaps I listened close with headphones, I can tell a difference.

    With modern encoders, it takes a high quality audio system to notice the differences, unless you are using abyssal settings.

    My father has a Behringer sound system, the sort you use for concerts and the like. A lower grade mp3 run through it does not sound the same. You can tell there is this sound of eggs in a pan with high pitches :-) If you are using earphones you took for free in a bus trip, you can't tell the difference, on the other hand.

    I must be going old because I am less able to tell the difference with the years. I should get a horse trained to pick the difference as an experiment, though.

    --
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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Monday, August 03, 2020 16:25:00
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Monday 03.08.20 - 08:06, arelor wrote to Nightfox:

    I must be going old because I am less able to tell the difference with
    the years. I should get a horse trained to pick the difference as an experiment, though.

    Or dogs? I understand you have a few of those available! <G>

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Monday, August 03, 2020 19:01:25
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to All on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:25 pm

    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Monday 03.08.20 - 08:06, arelor wrote to Nightfox:

    I must be going old because I am less able to tell the difference with the years. I should get a horse trained to pick the difference as an experiment, though.

    Or dogs? I understand you have a few of those available! <G>


    Yes. But horses have better hearing.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Monday, August 03, 2020 22:17:00
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Monday 03.08.20 - 20:01, arelor wrote to Ogg:

    I must be going old because I am less able to tell the difference
    with the years. I should get a horse trained to pick the difference
    as an experiment, though.


    Or dogs? I understand you have a few of those available! <G>


    Yes. But horses have better hearing.

    Crap. You made me look up equine audiology!

    Their eyesight is pretty darn good too, and better than a dog's.

    Today, depending on the recording, I can't tell much diff between 192Kbps
    and 320Kbps versions when listening to them direct with modest speakers.
    But there is still a noticeable difference after they have been recorded
    onto CD. Instead, I try to find FLAC versions when I absolutely need to
    hear the music at home. In the car, the mp3 versions on disc are good enough.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ogg on Monday, August 03, 2020 22:05:34
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:17 pm

    Today, depending on the recording, I can't tell much diff between 192Kbps and 320Kbps versions when listening to them direct with modest speakers. But there is still a noticeable difference after they have been recorded onto CD.

    I'm not sure how burning them to CD would make a difference in how they sound. I assume you mean burn them as an audio CD? Whether you're playing the MP3s or burning them as an audio CD, either way, the PC would have to decompress the MP3, and either way, I'd think the data would be the same whether you're playing the MP3 directly or burning its audio to a CD. I'd think the CD should sound the same as the MP3 (but not any better, naturally).

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Arelor on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 21:40:00
    On 08-03-20 07:06, Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-

    I must be going old because I am less able to tell the difference with
    the years. I should get a horse trained to pick the difference as an experiment, though.

    Oddly enough, I'm getting better at picking the difference with MP3, but I tend to be good at spotting patterns in information, which keeps getting better with more data. :)


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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Thursday, August 06, 2020 20:56:00
    Hello Nightfox!

    ** On Tuesday 04.08.20 - 01:05, nightfox wrote to Ogg:

    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:17 pm

    Today, depending on the recording, I can't tell much diff between
    192Kbps and 320Kbps versions when listening to them direct with
    modest speakers. But there is still a noticeable difference after
    they have been recorded onto CD.

    I'm not sure how burning them to CD would make a difference in how
    they sound. I assume you mean burn them as an audio CD?

    Yes, I was burning to AUDIO CD. At the time, I did not have the option to play MP3 version direct from USB or a device for the home hi-fi or the
    car.


    Whether you're playing the MP3s or burning them as an audio CD, either
    way, the PC would have to decompress the MP3, and either way, I'd
    think the data would be the same whether you're playing the MP3
    directly or burning its audio to a CD. I'd think the CD should sound
    the same as the MP3 (but not any better, naturally).

    Maybe the differences wouldn't be too noticeable on a cheap portable CD player. But the differences are glaring on a hi-fi system with floor speakers.

    ---
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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Thursday, August 13, 2020 01:22:00
    Hello Vk3jed!

    ** On Monday 03.08.20 - 06:05, vk3jed wrote to Ogg:

    Yes, for a hifi system, you want PCM or lossless compression like
    FLAC. I'm getting more sensitive to compression artifacts as time
    goes by too. MP3 sounds "OK", but it's nothing like lossless.

    That's funny. The sensitivity is supposed to diminish with age. It's like you're aging in reverse! LOL


    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into Og>> the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

    Now that I would be interested in! :)

    You can read a fairly long excerpt (Introduction and Chapter 1) here.

    https://www.edelweiss.plus/?sku=0143109340&g=4400

    The amazon version of Look-Inside is a bit longer into Chapter 2.

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Ogg on Thursday, August 13, 2020 20:14:00
    On 08-13-20 01:22, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, for a hifi system, you want PCM or lossless compression like
    FLAC. I'm getting more sensitive to compression artifacts as time
    goes by too. MP3 sounds "OK", but it's nothing like lossless.

    That's funny. The sensitivity is supposed to diminish with age. It's
    like you're aging in reverse! LOL

    Haha, when one has a brain that accumulates data in a statistical way and refines the stats continuously, strange things happen, especially when it's been running for over 62 years! :D


    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into
    the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

    Now that I would be interested in! :)

    You can read a fairly long excerpt (Introduction and Chapter 1) here.

    https://www.edelweiss.plus/?sku=0143109340&g=4400

    I'll check it out. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Ogg on Friday, August 14, 2020 13:52:00
    On 08-13-20 20:14, Vk3jed wrote to Ogg <=-

    Haha, when one has a brain that accumulates data in a statistical way
    and refines the stats continuously, strange things happen, especially
    when it's been running for over 62 years! :D

    Arrrgh typos - 52, not 62. :D


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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Friday, August 14, 2020 00:25:00
    Hello Vk3jed!

    ** On Thursday 13.08.20 - 23:52, vk3jed wrote to Ogg:

    Haha, when one has a brain that accumulates data in a statistical way
    and refines the stats continuously, strange things happen, especially
    when it's been running for over 62 years! :D

    Arrrgh typos - 52, not 62. :D

    Ya.. I wondered about that. Or.. you decided to age 10 years in a few weeks. LOL

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Ogg on Friday, August 14, 2020 18:59:00
    On 08-14-20 00:25, Ogg wrote to All <=-

    Arrrgh typos - 52, not 62. :D

    Ya.. I wondered about that. Or.. you decided to age 10 years in a few weeks. LOL

    It seems only my fingers have middle age spread. :D

    And are you replying via NNTP? I noticed your replay was address to "All". :)


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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Friday, August 14, 2020 21:12:00
    Hello Vk3jed!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 04:59, vk3jed wrote to Ogg:

    On 08-14-20 00:25, Ogg wrote to All <=-

    Arrrgh typos - 52, not 62. :D

    Ya.. I wondered about that. Or.. you decided to age 10 years in a few Og>> weeks. LOL

    It seems only my fingers have middle age spread. :D

    And are you replying via NNTP? I noticed your replay was address to "All". :)


    I am accessing dovenet via nntp, yes.

    I am not sure what triggered the "to All". Usually, that only happens
    when I create a brand new message. Does this one appear normal?

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Friday, August 14, 2020 21:30:00
    Hello Vk3jed!

    ** On Thursday 13.08.20 - 06:14, vk3jed wrote to Ogg:

    The backstory how mp3 was first developed and how (and why) it got into Og>>> the hands of the masses is an interesting story.

    Now that I would be interested in! :)

    You can read a fairly long excerpt (Introduction and Chapter 1) here.

    https://www.edelweiss.plus/?sku=0143109340&g=4400

    I'll check it out. :)

    I liked the way the book interweaved between the pirate's POV, the researcher's POV, and the recording industry's POV. It practically read
    like a suspense story how the actions of one group affected the other.

    Chime in with your thoughts after you get a chance to read the whole
    story.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ogg on Friday, August 14, 2020 21:46:57
    Re: Re: lossy or FLAC or CD
    By: Ogg to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:12 pm

    And are you replying via NNTP? I noticed your replay was address
    to "All". :)

    I am accessing dovenet via nntp, yes.

    I am not sure what triggered the "to All". Usually, that only happens when I create a brand new message. Does this one appear normal?

    I've noticed most of your messages are addressed to "All".. I've seen some of your messages written in reply to something I said, but addressed to "All", so they didn't come up in my new-to-me scan.

    Nightfox

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  • From Grease@VERT/DARKMATT to Ogg on Saturday, August 15, 2020 11:46:00
    On 08-14-20 21:12, Ogg mumbled to Vk3jed about Re: lossy or FLAC or CD.

    Hello Vk3jed!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 04:59, vk3jed wrote to Ogg:

    On 08-14-20 00:25, Ogg wrote to All <=-

    I am not sure what triggered the "to All". Usually, that only
    happens when I create a brand new message. Does this one appear
    normal?


    Yes, it does.
    Grease
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