• Apollo 11

    From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to All on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 19:38:00
    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 19:25:37
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to All on Wed Jul 20 2022 07:38 pm

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.

    Yep, it's hard to believe it has been that long.

    Nightfox

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Thursday, July 21, 2022 15:06:43
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to All on Wed Jul 20 2022 07:38 pm

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.



    ... If the #2 pencil is the most popular, why's it still #2?
    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed a technological feat that we havne't repated in my lifetime.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Boraxman on Thursday, July 21, 2022 08:09:00
    Hello Boraxman!

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:06, Boraxman wrote to Gamgee:

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years
    since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed
    a technological feat that we havne't repated in my
    lifetime.

    Why is space the measure? The coordinated attack on the twin
    towers on 9-11 was extraordinary, so was Stuxnet. The man-made
    islands in Dubia and the continued pursuit to build the
    "tallest" buildings in the world require new tech all the time.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Gamgee on Thursday, July 21, 2022 07:17:00
    Gamgee wrote to All <=-

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.

    I've been watching "For All Mankind". It's interesting seeing the people
    that were part of the lore during the "space race" and more than a little depressing that we went from walking on the moon to a couple of dedcades
    with a LEO truck called the Space Shuttle.

    Season 3 is interesting - there's a 3-way race to Mars between the Russians, NASA and a private venture backed by a billionaire.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Thursday, July 21, 2022 15:30:50
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:09 am

    Hello Boraxman!

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:06, Boraxman wrote to Gamgee:

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years
    since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed
    a technological feat that we havne't repated in my
    lifetime.

    Why is space the measure? The coordinated attack on the twin
    towers on 9-11 was extraordinary, so was Stuxnet. The man-made
    islands in Dubia and the continued pursuit to build the
    "tallest" buildings in the world require new tech all the time.

    also the moon landing was faked.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Thursday, July 21, 2022 18:25:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to All on Wed Jul 20 2022 07:38 pm

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years since
    anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed a
    technological feat that we havne't repated in my lifetime.

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next step
    is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is in
    late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go
    beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the
    moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    More info here:

    https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/world/artemis-i-launch-preparations-scn/index.html



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, July 21, 2022 18:27:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.

    I've been watching "For All Mankind". It's interesting seeing the
    people that were part of the lore during the "space race" and
    more than a little depressing that we went from walking on the
    moon to a couple of dedcades with a LEO truck called the Space
    Shuttle.

    Season 3 is interesting - there's a 3-way race to Mars between
    the Russians, NASA and a private venture backed by a billionaire.

    Very cool, I hadn't heard of this one but will be looking for it!



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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thursday, July 21, 2022 19:55:00
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Friday, July 22, 2022 01:08:02
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to MRO on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:55 pm

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.


    "hey we wrote over the tapes! you know it wasn't that important!"
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, July 21, 2022 23:01:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Gamgee on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:17 am

    Gamgee wrote to All <=-

    A little late in the day..., but it was on this day in 1969 that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out for a stroll on the moon.

    "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

    That was 53 years ago. Doesn't seem possible that it's been that long.

    I've been watching "For All Mankind". It's interesting seeing the people that were part of the lore during the "space race" and more than a little depressing that we went from walking on the moon to a couple of dedcades with a LEO truck called the Space Shuttle.

    Season 3 is interesting - there's a 3-way race to Mars between the Russians, NASA and a private venture backed by a billionaire.


    ... Not building a wall but making a brick

    There was a series on the Natgeo channel thatwas a fictional series about the exploration of Mars. Sprinkled in between the story line was short segments
    or commentaries on what is going on at that moment in the story or the importance of something going on at that moment. It starts out with a joint p roject between NASA and an eccentric billionaire, then when water is
    discovered his investment pays off. he has already prepared the required modu les and payloads necessary to establish a permanent colony. Soon afterwards
    a ship owned by a large corporation lands nearby and begins drilling irrespensibly for water, endangering the international base. The science
    base found a sign of previous life in the rocks, then the corporate base gets infected by living microbes in the water they were trying to hide out of fear they'd have to shut their drilling and pumping operation down. The science station realizes none of their ultra modern anti-biotics were designed to
    fight an alien pathogen, so they must secretly trade for penicillin dropped via a probe from the Chinese space station established over Mars.

    Good story, and the central theme was more can be done working together than against each other.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Friday, July 22, 2022 07:46:00
    Ogg wrote to MRO <=-

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event.

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16,
    and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were those "faked" too?

    There were also at least SIX unmanned landings by Russia since then, and
    at least THREE unmanned landings by China. Three of the Russian
    landings (the 'Luna' spacecraft series) returned rock samples to the
    Earth.

    So.... your statement above is.... complete bullshit.

    All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.

    Nobody has visited the original landing area because there's no reason
    to. It's better to land elsewhere to possibly discover something that
    isn't at the original area.

    You should really try to study some science before making such
    ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.



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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Ogg on Friday, July 22, 2022 14:27:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to MRO on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:55 pm

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.


    If there was evidence it was faked, it wouldn't come from some crackpot
    living in his mother's basement. It would be an official statement by a forie gn nation such as the Russians or the Chinese, who understand the science and have tried to land on the moon. They would be the ones with the assets to credibly debunk NASA's work. Also look at how many thousands of people
    worked on the space program. I can't suspend reality to think they could all keep their mouths shut considering revealing a secret like that could be
    worth millions of dollars.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Friday, July 22, 2022 17:34:03
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Fri Jul 22 2022 02:27 pm



    If there was evidence it was faked, it wouldn't come from some


    crackpot
    living in his mother's basement. It would be an official statement by a

    the evidence COMES from the source. there's videos of employees AT nasa talking about how they couldn't land again if they wanted to. they lost all the data. they lost the original recording. that's pretty odd, don't you think?

    forie gn nation such as the Russians or the Chinese, who understand the science and have tried to land on the moon. They would be the ones with the assets to credibly debunk NASA's work. Also look at how many thousands of people
    worked on the space program. I can't suspend reality to think they could all keep their mouths shut considering revealing a secret like that could be worth millions of dollars.

    it wouldnt do china or russia any good. and how would it be worth millions of dollars?

    i've been to the air and space museum. i have seen all that shit. no way did anybody shoot astronaughts into space, land it, have them walk around and then come home safetly. the equipment is junk.
    it's thin and flimsy. i could poke my finger through some of it if i was allowed. no WAY did we pull that off 50 years ago.
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  • From Belly@VERT/BRAZINET to Ogg on Friday, July 22, 2022 18:17:47
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to MRO on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:55 pm

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.

    What are you smoking? No landings since Apollo 11? Seriously?

    (The answer, by the way, is 'crack')

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Ogg on Saturday, July 23, 2022 09:57:04
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:09 am

    Why is space the measure? The coordinated attack on the twin
    towers on 9-11 was extraordinary, so was Stuxnet. The man-made
    islands in Dubia and the continued pursuit to build the
    "tallest" buildings in the world require new tech all the time.

    The 9/11 attacks were quite low tech. What was "amazing" was the audacity adn creativity.

    Stuxnet, can't comment, maybe. As for Dubai, the Islands and the Burj Khalifa are exercises in absolute stupidity. They might be engineering marvels, and perhaps you could argue that the moon landings were also "for show", but they were the result of major engineering advances and opened up the heavens to us.

    Look at other measures. Travel overseas is as slow as it was in the 80's and earlier. Travelling around the city is SLOWER. If you imagine what someone from the past would think about seeing the world in 40 or 60 years time, I think someone from 1982 would see fewer changes as soemone from 1942 looking at 1982. Someone from 1902 would see a different world in 40-50 years time.

    Space is not THE measure, but for me the measures that matter are the ones that bring life changing improvement and changes. I would say the Internet is the one major advancement now

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:04:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:25 pm

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed a
    technological feat that we havne't repated in my lifetime.

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next step
    is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is in
    late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go
    beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the
    moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    More info here:

    https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/world/artemis-i-launch-preparations-scn/index .html



    There is a good argument to be had that it is pointless to send humans to the moon, when probes can do most of the work, far cheaper with far less risk. And that is true, but what has also been lost is the dream of using the moon.

    Maybe space travel wasn't really that important for humans after all? Even so, I can't help but think that in many other areas, we still lack the creativity and dynamism that existed before. We make faster and faster computers, but when I go to work and use the OS (Windows), I'm using almost the same paradigms and processes as back in 2002, with the exception I have enough CPU and bandwith to make video calls. Travelling around the city is the same as 50 years ago, albeit a bit safer, but slower and less efficient.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Ogg on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:10:02
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to MRO on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:55 pm

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.

    It *IS* very expensive to go there. No one is willing to fork out billions to prove a conspiracy theory which is based on poor reasoning wrong.

    I think there are pictures from a lunar orbiter which show the landing site.

    Most, if not all of the 'evidence' used to argue the landings were fake is fairly easily explained and dismissed. I watched a documentary about how the landings were faked when I was a teenager, and even THEN I could easily tell how the 'proof' was based on a misunderstanding and poor interpretation.

    If the landings were faked, the Soviets would have never let the world hear the end of it. They tracked the mission too.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Saturday, July 23, 2022 10:17:35
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Fri Jul 22 2022 02:27 pm

    If there was evidence it was faked, it wouldn't come from some crackpot living in his mother's basement. It would be an official statement by a forie gn nation such as the Russians or the Chinese, who understand the science and have tried to land on the moon. They would be the ones with the assets to credibly debunk NASA's work. Also look at how many thousands of people
    worked on the space program. I can't suspend reality to think they could all keep their mouths shut considering revealing a secret like that could be worth millions of dollars.


    The 'moon landing was a hoax' thing really pisses me off because people who buy into these theories won't be swayed by evidence. The 9/11 truthers are just as bad. Not even first hand video evidence is enough.

    I mean, to seriously believe that the government and NASA were able to cover such a huge hoax up, for so long? They they managed to avoid any leaks or a "Hunter Biden's laptop" kind of event?

    What is worse is the argument themselves are dumb. "The astronauts moonwalk is just regular walking slowed down" the say, then the show footage of the astronauts walking sped up, which does NOT look anything like walking, and say this is proof. "You can't see the stars" they say. Well, look at all the photos you've taken say at night at a party,a nd tell me how many stars you might see in the sky.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Friday, July 22, 2022 21:20:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Ogg on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:10 am


    It *IS* very expensive to go there. No one is willing to fork out billions to prove a conspiracy theory which is based on poor reasoning wrong.


    dude, money is no object when you are the government. it's not a real thing.

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely.
    no fucking way.

    that's 50 years ago. i saw the stuff for the mission. it's junk. i wouldn't wear that junk in a rain storm, much less outerspace.

    Most, if not all of the 'evidence' used to argue the landings were fake is fairly easily explained and dismissed. I watched a documentary about how the landings were faked when I was a teenager, and even THEN I could easily tell how the 'proof' was based on a misunderstanding and poor interpretation.


    there's a lot of strange facts and occurances that just don't add up.
    people that want to believe it happened ignore them.

    Just watch the interviews about them describing space. they say all kinds of different things.

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody can make heads of tails of it. there's a lot of conflicting stories and information.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Friday, July 22, 2022 21:27:49
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:17 am


    The 'moon landing was a hoax' thing really pisses me off because people who buy into these theories won't be swayed by evidence. The 9/11 truthers are just as bad. Not even first hand video evidence is enough.

    the evidence was destroyed. the telemetry data. the original recordings.

    the first hand video evidence was DESTROYED.
    that is a fact.

    I mean, to seriously believe that the government and NASA were able to cover such a huge hoax up, for so long? They they managed to avoid any leaks or a

    it was easy to keep secrets back then. you told people what to believe. you told the papers what to print and that was that.

    technology was not that advanced. there weren't multiple sources. there werent as many freelance reporters.

    such a huge hoax up, for so long? They they managed to avoid any leaks or a "Hunter Biden's laptop" kind of event?

    they tried to cover up for hunter biden but that guy is so fucking whacked out it's impossible. they tried to cover up the gun being ditched across the street from a school. still got out.

    What is worse is the argument themselves are dumb. "The astronauts moonwalk is just regular walking slowed down" the say, then the show footage of the astronauts walking sped up, which does NOT look anything like walking, and say this is proof. "You can't see the stars" they say. Well, look at all the photos you've taken say at night at a party,a nd tell me how many stars

    yes there's a lot of crazies trying to provide skeptical people with proof.

    it's funny that you mention stars. that's what i was talking about in my other post. depending on who you interview, the sky is so full of stars in space and you can see them all clearly. OR the sky is black velvet and there are no stars.
    that's very odd. they were there, why do they say different things? they all had perfect vision and health. why do they say 2 different things?
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Friday, July 22, 2022 19:36:49
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:17 am

    The 'moon landing was a hoax' thing really pisses me off because people who buy into these theories won't be swayed by evidence. The 9/11 truthers are just as bad. Not even first hand video evidence is enough.

    I mean, to seriously believe that the government and NASA were able to cover such a huge hoax up, for so long? They they managed to avoid any leaks or a "Hunter Biden's laptop" kind of event?

    Yeah.. The moon landing hoax, 9/11 truther, and flat earth conspiracy theorists all seem to just want something to believe in that goes against common knowledge. Many of the arguments in favor of these conspiracy theories seem to be a misunderstanding of the evidence, physics, or just how things work in general.

    What is worse is the argument themselves are dumb. "The astronauts moonwalk is just regular walking slowed down" the say, then the show footage of the astronauts walking sped up, which does NOT look anything like walking, and say this is proof. "You can't see the stars" they say. Well, look at all the photos you've taken say at night at a party,a nd tell me how many stars you might see in the sky.

    Exactly.

    One of my favorites is the Flat Earth conspiracy theory, and some who supposedly believe that gravity is just due to the earth constantly accelerating upward. If that was true, then we'd be well beyond the speed of light by now, with the earth accelerating for the last 4.8(ish?) billion years.. And that also suggests that the stars and our solar system would have to be accelerating in the same direction along with us in order for us to keep obvserving them.

    Nightfox

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Friday, July 22, 2022 21:40:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:25 pm

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed a
    technological feat that we havne't repated in my lifetime.

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next step
    is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is in
    late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go
    beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the
    moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    More info here:

    https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/


    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/world/artemis-i-launch-preparations-scn/index.html

    There is a good argument to be had that it is pointless to send
    humans to the moon, when probes can do most of the work, far
    cheaper with far less risk. And that is true, but what has also
    been lost is the dream of using the moon.

    I'd counter that argument with this: The human race is doomed if we
    don't find a way to get off of this planet. That's still a long way in
    the future (the extinction), but it's a foregone conclusion, IMHO. The
    only way to get off this planet and establish a new home is to....
    travel in space. You begin that process by traveling to the moon, and
    then Mars, and then.... wherever. The point being that you have to
    "practice" doing it if you want to get better at it. An
    over-simplification, granted, but I think you see my point.

    Maybe space travel wasn't really that important for humans after
    all? Even so, I can't help but think that in many other areas,
    we still lack the creativity and dynamism that existed before.

    I agree that creativity and the "pioneer spirit" seem to be gone. Maybe
    this new space program will re-ignite that rocket. ;-)

    We make faster and faster computers, but when I go to work and
    use the OS (Windows), I'm using almost the same paradigms and
    processes as back in 2002, with the exception I have enough CPU
    and bandwith to make video calls. Travelling around the city is
    the same as 50 years ago, albeit a bit safer, but slower and less efficient.

    That is all true, but it's bigger than that. 50 years ago nobody could
    even *IMAGINE* some of the things that we take for granted today.
    Internet, wireless communications, medicine, etc... With the same
    logic, we can predict that future generations, in 50 or 100 years will
    have things that we can't see right now. Hopefully one of them will be "routine" space travel. Even that isn't really enough, though, in the
    long term picture. We must eventually learn how to travel through space
    at (very near) the speed of light in order to get out of our solar
    system, and probably the imaginary (?) concept of "warp" travel to
    really get anywhere meaningful. I believe that will indeed happen one
    day.


    ... The future's uncertain, the end is always near.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Friday, July 22, 2022 21:43:00
    MRO wrote to Moondog <=-

    i've been to the air and space museum. i have seen all that shit.
    no way did anybody shoot astronaughts into space, land it, have
    them walk around and then come home safetly. the equipment is
    junk. it's thin and flimsy. i could poke my finger through some
    of it if i was allowed. no WAY did we pull that off 50 years
    ago.

    You truly are stupid. Moronic. Uneducated. Delusional.


    ... Some people are born stupid, others work to acquire it.
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 16:39:45
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:20 pm

    dude, money is no object when you are the government. it's not a real thing.

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely.
    no fucking way.

    that's 50 years ago. i saw the stuff for the mission. it's junk. i wouldn't wear that junk in a rain storm, much less outerspace.


    You might think things were more primitive 50 years ago, but they just weren't.

    there's a lot of strange facts and occurances that just don't add up.
    people that want to believe it happened ignore them.

    Just watch the interviews about them describing space. they say all kinds of different things.

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody can make heads of tails of it. there's a lot of conflicting stories and information.

    That isn't evidence of anything. You argument basically amounts to "I don't understand how it could have happened". That argument can just as likely be due to ignorance as it is to some fundamental reason for why it couldn't have happened.

    The moon landings aren't out of place with the technology of the era. We built nuclear bombs 25 years before that! There was all sorts of sophisticated technology.

    To be honest, I think the probability of it being faked, and somehow kept under wraps for 50 years, without anyone exposing anything, without the Soviets digging something up (or simply admitting it didn't happen, as they would have KNOWN if it was fake), is even less than the probility of them being able to do it.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 16:47:34
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:27 pm

    the evidence was destroyed. the telemetry data. the original recordings.

    the first hand video evidence was DESTROYED.
    that is a fact.

    Recorded over. Lack of foresight, and it wasn't all destroyed. It's not unimaginable. The mission was done, dusted, completed, the data they WANTED to get from it obtained.

    You can find a lot of the archival video which has been released on line, gigabytes of it. As for telemetry and such, it doesn't shock me. I work with regulated products, data pertaining to its creation is destroyed after a time period. You don't need to know the specifics after the product is created, or the project created.

    Anyway, if they kept the telemetry data (why keep it?) you'd just claim it was faked anyway. There is no amount of evidence that will convince you it happened, so there is no point arguing. The fact they televised it, showed you in near real time isn't enough, so what else?

    If they went to the moon and took photos, you'd probably claim that was faked. So it is with conspiracy theorists.

    it was easy to keep secrets back then. you told people what to believe. you told the papers what to print and that was that.

    There were multiple sources of information about the mission. Many people, some in other countries were involved, even Australia which received the signals from the moon to relay to the US.

    they tried to cover up for hunter biden but that guy is so fucking whacked out it's impossible. they tried to cover up the gun being ditched across the street from a school. still got out.

    Exactly. Still got out.

    yes there's a lot of crazies trying to provide skeptical people with proof.

    it's funny that you mention stars. that's what i was talking about in my other post. depending on who you interview, the sky is so full of stars in space and you can see them all clearly. OR the sky is black velvet and there are no stars.
    that's very odd. they were there, why do they say different things? they all had perfect vision and health. why do they say 2 different things?

    Both are true. The sky is absolutely the blackest of black, with lots of stars in it.

    You will NOT see the stars in the photos. If I saw stars in the photos they took, THEN you would have cause to be suspicious.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Saturday, July 23, 2022 16:51:19
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 07:36 pm

    Yeah.. The moon landing hoax, 9/11 truther, and flat earth conspiracy theorists all seem to just want something to believe in that goes against common knowledge. Many of the arguments in favor of these conspiracy theories seem to be a misunderstanding of the evidence, physics, or just how things work in general.

    I've dealt with some 9/11 truthers. They are the same, no amount of evidence will sway them. You can literally see one of the towers starting to collapse from the point of impact, not from the base. There is video footage of it buckling them coming down, not congruent with the explosives. Doesn't matter.

    The thing with conspiracy theories, is that you can always claim any evidence is fake, anyone saying otherwise is brainwashed.

    Exactly.

    One of my favorites is the Flat Earth conspiracy theory, and some who supposedly believe that gravity is just due to the earth constantly accelerating upward. If that was true, then we'd be well beyond the speed of light by now, with the earth accelerating for the last 4.8(ish?) billion years.. And that also suggests that the stars and our solar system would have to be accelerating in the same direction along with us in order for us to keep obvserving them.

    I was at a party with a Flat Earther, and someone showed him footage from the space station showing the curvature of the Earth. He said it was due to a fish eye lens.

    I thought Flat Earthers were trolls, but they are serious!

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Saturday, July 23, 2022 17:05:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:40 pm

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/world/artemis-i-launch-preparations-scn/index .html

    There is a good argument to be had that it is pointless to send
    I'd counter that argument with this: The human race is doomed if we
    don't find a way to get off of this planet. That's still a long way in
    the future (the extinction), but it's a foregone conclusion, IMHO. The
    only way to get off this planet and establish a new home is to....
    travel in space. You begin that process by traveling to the moon, and
    then Mars, and then.... wherever. The point being that you have to "practice" doing it if you want to get better at it. An over-simplification, granted, but I think you see my point.


    The problem is finding somewhere habitable. That is a much harder problem than we thought. Scientific bases in space make sense, but we can't live there. We are too tied to the specifics on Earth to live anywhere else.

    Extinction is a foregone conclusion anyway, as all stars will burn out, so space colonisation will only delay it. Worthwhile, but doesn't solve the extinction problem.

    The barrier to space colonisation is not getting there, its making it work when we get there. We can't get it right on Earth, so what hope on Mars?

    Consider this. People on Earth, in civilised areas, today, who are working, are finding themselves living out of tents because we just don't seem to be able to get housing affordable. Others are competing hard for space.

    And thats on Earth, in a very hospitable part, with civilisation built up. First world civilisation.

    We can't get it right here. We WON'T get it right on Mars or wherever. It could not possibly work the way we run our society here, and only with a new 'system', which would threaten the status quo here, could there be a chance.

    I agree that creativity and the "pioneer spirit" seem to be gone. Maybe this new space program will re-ignite that rocket. ;-)

    That is all true, but it's bigger than that. 50 years ago nobody could
    even *IMAGINE* some of the things that we take for granted today.
    Internet, wireless communications, medicine, etc... With the same
    logic, we can predict that future generations, in 50 or 100 years will
    have things that we can't see right now. Hopefully one of them will be "routine" space travel. Even that isn't really enough, though, in the
    long term picture. We must eventually learn how to travel through space
    at (very near) the speed of light in order to get out of our solar
    system, and probably the imaginary (?) concept of "warp" travel to
    really get anywhere meaningful. I believe that will indeed happen one
    day.


    I dispute that. 50 years ago was 1972. The early stages of the Internet were already in place then. ARAPANET had been around a little bit, and people were writing about it, science fiction writers. Book from that era described the current world. They got a lot wrong, but things like working from home, doing grocery shopping from home and a world wide network were imagined.

    Maybe the lay person didn't really think about it, but more astute people, people at the forefront of technology saw it. The specifics are different. For example, in the movie 2001 A Space Odysee, we see a video call using a type of phone booth. We got that capability, but in a different format. I think what would impress people is the success in minaturisation, being able to fit so much capability in a small space.

    The great achivement in computing is really just overcoming the technical challenges of making things smaller and faster.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 07:56:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:40 pm

    There is a good argument to be had that it is pointless to send

    I'd counter that argument with this: The human race is doomed if we
    don't find a way to get off of this planet. That's still a long way in
    the future (the extinction), but it's a foregone conclusion, IMHO. The
    only way to get off this planet and establish a new home is to....
    travel in space. You begin that process by traveling to the moon, and
    then Mars, and then.... wherever. The point being that you have to "practice" doing it if you want to get better at it. An over-simplification, granted, but I think you see my point.

    The problem is finding somewhere habitable. That is a much
    harder problem than we thought. Scientific bases in space make
    sense, but we can't live there. We are too tied to the specifics
    on Earth to live anywhere else.

    No argument with that. In order to find somewhere habitable, we need to
    get out there, and look. We can't do that until we get (much) better at
    space travel. We're back to my point - we need to be learning how to do
    space travel.

    Extinction is a foregone conclusion anyway, as all stars will
    burn out, so space colonisation will only delay it. Worthwhile,
    but doesn't solve the extinction problem.

    Ahhhh, but it does! Yes, all stars burn out, and end life on the
    planets orbiting them. But, they don't all burn out at the same time.
    We just keep moving, and expanding. Eventually we reach a point where
    that issue won't cause extinction of the species.

    The barrier to space colonisation is not getting there, its
    making it work when we get there. We can't get it right on
    Earth, so what hope on Mars?

    Getting there is also a huge barrier, for now at least. I'd argue that
    we have got it right on Earth. Sure, it's not perfect, and some have it
    much harder than others, but we're still here. There will always be
    problems when you look at things on a global scale.

    Consider this. People on Earth, in civilised areas, today, who
    are working, are finding themselves living out of tents because
    we just don't seem to be able to get housing affordable. Others
    are competing hard for space.

    Very small percentage of the whole are doing that. Yes, that problem
    exists, but in the BIG PICTURE of things, it's not that relevant. You
    have to think about this on a bigger scale.

    And thats on Earth, in a very hospitable part, with civilisation
    built up. First world civilisation.

    We can't get it right here. We WON'T get it right on Mars or
    wherever. It could not possibly work the way we run our society
    here, and only with a new 'system', which would threaten the
    status quo here, could there be a chance.

    We can't get it "perfect" here, agreed. That isn't the goal. It
    absolutely will not work the same on Mars as it does here, and it
    doesn't need to be the same. Again that's not the goal. We learn and
    adapt to the location as needed.

    I agree that creativity and the "pioneer spirit" seem to be gone. Maybe this new space program will re-ignite that rocket. ;-)

    That is all true, but it's bigger than that. 50 years ago nobody could
    even *IMAGINE* some of the things that we take for granted today.
    Internet, wireless communications, medicine, etc... With the same
    logic, we can predict that future generations, in 50 or 100 years will
    have things that we can't see right now. Hopefully one of them will be "routine" space travel. Even that isn't really enough, though, in the
    long term picture. We must eventually learn how to travel through space
    at (very near) the speed of light in order to get out of our solar
    system, and probably the imaginary (?) concept of "warp" travel to
    really get anywhere meaningful. I believe that will indeed happen one
    day.

    I dispute that. 50 years ago was 1972. The early stages of the
    Internet were already in place then. ARAPANET had been around a
    little bit, and people were writing about it, science fiction
    writers. Book from that era described the current world. They
    got a lot wrong, but things like working from home, doing grocery
    shopping from home and a world wide network were imagined.

    Okay, then use whatever time measure you like. Use 100 years instead of
    50. Use 500 years. Any of those measures are 'microseconds' on the
    time scale of the universe. If it takes us another 1000 years to be
    able to travel to another solar system, that is fine. That accomplishes
    the goal, which is to be able to move off of this planet. You have to
    think differently with topics like this. If it takes 10,000 years,
    that's fine too. Our sun has another 4-5 billion years of life. We
    just need to figure it out by then.

    Maybe the lay person didn't really think about it, but more
    astute people, people at the forefront of technology saw it. The specifics are different. For example, in the movie 2001 A Space
    Odysee, we see a video call using a type of phone booth. We got
    that capability, but in a different format. I think what would
    impress people is the success in minaturisation, being able to
    fit so much capability in a small space.

    The great achivement in computing is really just overcoming the
    technical challenges of making things smaller and faster.

    You're probably right on the above points, but that is largely
    "semantics". When we are talking about something as big as long
    distance space travel, the timeline stretches out. My main point is
    that we have a LONG time still left to us to get it figured out, and I
    believe we will. All of this in spite of the "climate change" worriers wringing their hands and predicting doom. Yes, that is an issue, but
    it's not going to end life on Earth anytime soon.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 07:58:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    It *IS* very expensive to go there. No one is willing to fork out billions to prove a conspiracy theory which is based on poor reasoning wrong.

    dude, money is no object when you are the government. it's not a
    real thing.

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with
    people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring
    them back safely. no fucking way.

    that's 50 years ago. i saw the stuff for the mission. it's junk.
    i wouldn't wear that junk in a rain storm, much less outerspace.

    You're an idiot. At what grade level did you drop out of school?


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Saturday, July 23, 2022 08:02:00
    Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

    The 'moon landing was a hoax' thing really pisses me off because people who buy into these theories won't be swayed by evidence. The 9/11 truthers are just as bad. Not even first hand video evidence is enough.

    I mean, to seriously believe that the government and NASA were able to cover such a huge hoax up, for so long? They they managed to avoid any leaks or a "Hunter Biden's laptop" kind of event?

    Yeah.. The moon landing hoax, 9/11 truther, and flat earth
    conspiracy theorists all seem to just want something to believe
    in that goes against common knowledge. Many of the arguments in
    favor of these conspiracy theories seem to be a misunderstanding
    of the evidence, physics, or just how things work in general.

    Not so much a "misunderstanding", but a complete "lack of
    understanding". The idiots who believe such things are either
    inherently stupid, or completely uneducated, or both.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Gamgee on Friday, July 22, 2022 18:25:00
    Hello Gamgee!

    ** On Friday 22.07.22 - 07:46, Gamgee wrote to Ogg:

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15,
    Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were
    those "faked" too?

    There were also at least SIX unmanned landings by Russia
    since then, and at least THREE unmanned landings by China.
    Three of the Russian landings (the 'Luna' spacecraft
    series) returned rock samples to the Earth.

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    [...]


    You should really try to study some science before making
    such ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.

    I don't need to "study science". It seems that I have been
    behind the "news". :/ Those were indeed extraordinary
    accomplishments. I stand corrected. ;)

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 09:34:00
    Space is not THE measure, but for me the measures that matter are the ones tha
    bring life changing improvement and changes. I would say the Internet is the e major advancement now

    Unfortunately, it still brings about changes, but a lot of them are not improvements. I see it as more of a source of potential disinformation,
    scams, fraud, etc., than any source before it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Tongue-tied & twisted, just an Earth-bound misfit, I!

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 09:36:00
    If the landings were faked, the Soviets would have never let the world hear th
    end of it. They tracked the mission too.

    They had a ship "in the air" over the Moon during the period that Apollo 11
    was on the surface. IIRC, they were trying to beat us to the Moon, but
    their mission was unmanned and (maybe) did not ever land there.


    * SLMR 2.1a * My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air...

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 09:46:00
    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop t
    m off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely.

    The Nazis were a bad, bad group, but they did a lot to quickly accelerate science, especially when it came to rocketry and other tech. They were
    intent on using it for future warfare and were desperate to get an edge on
    the British, Americans, and Soviets. Their immediate goals were rockets
    that could travel long distances within the Earth's atmosphere or near-orbit, but they also had goals for moving beyond into space. They had all sorts
    of ideas, some ludicrous and some with potential, when it came to advancing warfare via space.

    After the war, there were a lot of smart people with new ideas that were liberated/taken prisoner/accepted into the science communities of the US
    and Soviet governments.

    The rocket tech was there as early as the 1940's, but needed refinement to get it resized and working correctly for any goals beyond "near-Earth" space.
    They took ~20 years to get it there.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to OGG on Saturday, July 23, 2022 09:53:00
    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15,
    Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were
    those "faked" too?

    There were also at least SIX unmanned landings by Russia
    since then, and at least THREE unmanned landings by China.
    Three of the Russian landings (the 'Luna' spacecraft
    series) returned rock samples to the Earth.

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    The Russian and Chinese ones might have been (I don't know enough about
    their programs), but the Apollo missions he lists were all successful
    landings.

    I know there have been failures by all three countries but, IIRC, the only
    US mission that failed after Apollo 11 was Apollo 13. Russia had some
    failures before Apollo 11 for sure. As far as we know, all but possibly
    one were unmanned.

    To my knowledge, most of the US Apollo missions before Apollo 11 did not have landings as part of their mission. There was at least one that was meant
    to orbit only (9 or 10), and it was a success.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A momentary lapse of reason that binds a life to a life..

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 12:08:39
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Sat Jul 23 2022 04:51 pm

    I was at a party with a Flat Earther, and someone showed him footage from the space station showing the curvature of the Earth. He said it was due to a fish eye lens.

    I thought Flat Earthers were trolls, but they are serious!

    Yeah, years ago I ran across the Flat Earth Society web site and I thought it was a joke, but it seems it's not..

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 12:24:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Gamgee on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:05 pm

    The problem is finding somewhere habitable. That is a much harder problem than we thought. Scientific bases in space make sense, but we can't live

    Is it really harder than we thought? I thought it was fairly well understood that finding a habitable planet would be fairly rare, since it seems all up to chance that the conditions are good enough on a planet to support human life. We've been seeing more and more planets in the galaxy, and I think I've only heard of maybe a couple that they think might be habitable, and they're fairly far out there.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Saturday, July 23, 2022 12:26:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to MRO on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:43 pm

    i've been to the air and space museum. i have seen all that shit.
    no way did anybody shoot astronaughts into space, land it, have

    You truly are stupid. Moronic. Uneducated. Delusional.

    He can't even spell "astronaut" correctly.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:22:00
    Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15,
    Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were
    those "faked" too?

    There were also at least SIX unmanned landings by Russia
    since then, and at least THREE unmanned landings by China.
    Three of the Russian landings (the 'Luna' spacecraft
    series) returned rock samples to the Earth.

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    Wrong again. All that I listed above were successful landings by
    unmanned spacecraft. Not all of the Russian ones made it back to Earth,
    and they did have some crash landings. Again, everything above were successful landings. Funny that you don't even mention/acknowledge the
    *FIVE* other *MANNED* Apollo landings, which of course all returned
    safely to Earth. All of this was after Apollo 11, of course.

    You should really try to study some science before making
    such ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.

    I don't need to "study science". It seems that I have been
    behind the "news". :/ Those were indeed extraordinary
    accomplishments. I stand corrected. ;)

    Strike three. None of the above is "news". It happened *FIFTY* years
    ago. Study is indeed what is needed.


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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:31:30
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 04:39 pm

    You might think things were more primitive 50 years ago, but they just weren't.

    there's a lot of strange facts and occurances that just don't add up. people that want to believe it happened ignore them.

    Just watch the interviews about them describing space. they say all kinds of different things.

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody can make heads of tails of it. there's a lot of conflicting stories and information.



    That isn't evidence of anything.

    they have literal interviews with nasa employees recorded inside of nasa

    You argument basically amounts to "I don't
    understand how it could have happened".

    NO. they say they don't understand how it happened and they
    could not duplicate it.

    what i dont understand is how you can lose telemetry data AND the original recordings.


    due to ignorance as it is to some fundamental reason for why it couldn't

    ignorance is blindly believing something without questioning it.

    The moon landings aren't out of place with the technology of the era. We built nuclear bombs 25 years before that! There was all sorts of sophisticated technology.

    dude, building a bomb is a lot easier than landing on the moon and coming back alive. and as i said, i saw everything at the air and space museum in person.

    Soviets digging something up (or simply admitting it didn't happen, as they would have KNOWN if it was fake), is even less than the probility of them being able to do it.

    they were good at keeping a secret.

    something strange was certainly going on with that whole situation.
    there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:35:10
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 04:47 pm

    the first hand video evidence was DESTROYED.
    that is a fact.

    Recorded over. Lack of foresight, and it wasn't all destroyed. It's not unimaginable. The mission was done, dusted, completed, the data they WANTED

    it's either recorded over or lost. or destroyed.

    The mission was done, dusted, completed, the data they WANTED
    to get from it obtained.

    they fucking literally said they lost the data.


    If they went to the moon and took photos, you'd probably claim that was faked. So it is with conspiracy theorists.



    You're actually believing in the conspiracy that it DID happen. and you are ignoring the facts that there are many lies, half truths and oddities about the moon landing. not to mention that it's a technological feat that was almost impossible for that time.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:22:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Fri Jul 22 2022 05:34 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Fri Jul 22 2022 02:27 pm



    If there was evidence it was faked, it wouldn't come from some


    crackpot
    living in his mother's basement. It would be an official statement by a

    the evidence COMES from the source. there's videos of employees AT nasa talk

    forie gn nation such as the Russians or the Chinese, who understand the science and have tried to land on the moon. They would be the ones with assets to credibly debunk NASA's work. Also look at how many thousands o people
    worked on the space program. I can't suspend reality to think they could all keep their mouths shut considering revealing a secret like that could worth millions of dollars.

    it wouldnt do china or russia any good. and how would it be worth millions o

    i've been to the air and space museum. i have seen all that shit. no way di it's thin and flimsy. i could poke my finger through some of it if i was al

    Hard eveidence would've been worth the money PAID by Russia or China. They wo uld've paid good money to prove the moon landing was false.

    If there's radio transmissions or video proving they couldn't land, hwere is it? Why is it not widespread? As i stated, the Russians would've rubbed the American's nose in a hoax. They have radios and antennas too that can lsten
    to open, non-encrypoted radio of that era.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:30:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Ogg on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:57 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 08:09 am

    Why is space the measure? The coordinated attack on the twin
    towers on 9-11 was extraordinary, so was Stuxnet. The man-made
    islands in Dubia and the continued pursuit to build the
    "tallest" buildings in the world require new tech all the time.

    The 9/11 attacks were quite low tech. What was "amazing" was the audacity a

    Stuxnet, can't comment, maybe. As for Dubai, the Islands and the Burj Khali ajor engineering advances and opened up the heavens to us.

    Look at other measures. Travel overseas is as slow as it was in the 80's an would see fewer changes as soemone from 1942 looking at 1982. Someone from

    Space is not THE measure, but for me the measures that matter are the ones t

    I saw a documentary on Stuxnet, and it was very clever how they were able to u se pictures from a technology journal to ascertain the types of cetrifuges
    and IP addresses and possible device names from a partial screenshot, but compared to ravelling to another celestial body, let alone landing and returning, is a major feat. Most of heavy lifting was the math being doen
    by men and women with sliderules.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:38:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Gamgee on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:04 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:25 pm

    What is even more crazy is that it has been about 50 years since anyone's been to the moon. My grandparents witnessed a technological feat that we havne't repated in my lifetime.

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next step is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is in
    late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    More info here:

    https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/world/artemis-i-launch-preparations-scn/in .html



    There is a good argument to be had that it is pointless to send humans to th

    Maybe space travel wasn't really that important for humans after all? Even d use the OS (Windows), I'm using almost the same paradigms and processes as less efficient.

    Blame culture, not technology. The computer that was on the Apollo module is outclassed by the little throwaway free calculators that companies give away with their names on them. The reason why you have a multi-cpu video phone data device is because of the push for making smaller faster, portable computing platforms. A flip phone from 20 years ago would be the size o f
    the Empire State building if it were made from vacuum tubes. Materials suchg as memory foam came from the space program.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, July 23, 2022 14:49:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:20 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Ogg on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:10 am


    It *IS* very expensive to go there. No one is willing to fork out billio to prove a conspiracy theory which is based on poor reasoning wrong.


    dude, money is no object when you are the government. it's not a real thing.

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop no fucking way.

    that's 50 years ago. i saw the stuff for the mission. it's junk. i wouldn't

    Most, if not all of the 'evidence' used to argue the landings were fake i fairly easily explained and dismissed. I watched a documentary about how the landings were faked when I was a teenager, and even THEN I could easi tell how the 'proof' was based on a misunderstanding and poor interpretation.


    there's a lot of strange facts and occurances that just don't add up.
    people that want to believe it happened ignore them.

    Just watch the interviews about them describing space. they say all kinds of

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody

    In 1991 I was able to tour a remake of the Pinta, a replica of one of
    Columbus' ships that was built for the 500th anniversary of Columbus's
    voyage. From stem to stern the entire boat was under 100 feet. It wasn't
    like those huge boats we see in the movies. It had a hold and a captain's cab in. Since the hold would be filled with everything they'd need, the crew had to sleep on the deck. The replica had for US Coast Guard regulations radios and a diesel engine installed for safety reasons, however in the open sea,
    and even during the tour of the Great Lakes they only used it when in a
    marina. The Pinta was leading edge 500 years ago, but I still wouldn't have trusted it. The Apollo program was primitive by todays standards, but they sent several missions to the moon afterwards.

    ---
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Gamgee on Friday, July 22, 2022 07:34:00
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next
    step is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is
    in late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    Hopefully, this time, people will pay attention. I remember being a kid and being totally excited for Apollo 17, Skylab, and Apollo/Soyuz. It seemed
    like the adults had all moved on after Apollo 11.




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Gamgee on Saturday, July 23, 2022 06:31:00
    Gamgee wrote to Ogg <=-

    You should really try to study some science before making such
    ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon put in its place.



    ... Abandon desire
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 06:35:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Maybe space travel wasn't really that important for humans after all?

    We have all of our eggs in one proverbial basket on the Earth. If we don't colonize other planets, sooner or later, if we haven't offed ourselves
    through war or neglect, we're going to see a planetary extinction event like
    a meteor or other body impacting the earth. No where to run.





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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 06:36:00
    Boraxman wrote to Ogg <=-

    Most, if not all of the 'evidence' used to argue the landings were fake
    is fairly easily explained and dismissed. I watched a documentary
    about how the landings were faked when I was a teenager, and even THEN
    I could easily tell how the 'proof' was based on a misunderstanding and poor interpretation.

    It did make for an interesting film called "Capricorn One" that came out in the 1970s. The Mars mission was doomed to fail, so they took the crew off at the last minute, shot the rocket into space, and faked the moon landing on a sound stage.


    ... The robots can go off-script?
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 06:38:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Extinction is a foregone conclusion anyway, as all stars will burn out,
    so space colonisation will only delay it. Worthwhile, but doesn't
    solve the extinction problem.

    We've got billions of years to figure out how to turn our consciousnesses
    into quantum strings.


    ... The robots can go off-script?
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 17:53:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next
    step is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is
    in late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    Hopefully, this time, people will pay attention. I remember being
    a kid and being totally excited for Apollo 17, Skylab, and
    Apollo/Soyuz. It seemed like the adults had all moved on after
    Apollo 11.

    Yup, I hope so too. It's about the coolest thing going, IMHO. Sure
    would like to see things go smoothly and for them to get additional
    funding. We waste so much money on garbage, and this kind of thing
    seems to get overlooked. I think it's very important, perhaps even
    critical, for the future of the entire planet.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, July 23, 2022 17:55:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    You should really try to study some science before making such
    ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon
    put in its place.

    The bastards! ;-)



    ... Strip mining prevents forest fires.
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:01:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 07:56 am

    No argument with that. In order to find somewhere habitable, we need to
    get out there, and look. We can't do that until we get (much) better at space travel. We're back to my point - we need to be learning how to do space travel.

    From what I have read, it seems the more we are learning about exoplanets and other system, the more unique our system seems to be. While other planets are *very* common, our particular configuration which allowed life to exist on Earth isn't common, and perhaps a freak occurence. The number of habitable planets may be quite small and far apart.

    Ahhhh, but it does! Yes, all stars burn out, and end life on the
    planets orbiting them. But, they don't all burn out at the same time.
    We just keep moving, and expanding. Eventually we reach a point where
    that issue won't cause extinction of the species.

    What I was referring to was the fact that all the hydrogen gets burned up. There will come a point where no new stars can be formed. The universe WILL become devoid of stars and sources of heat energy at some point.

    Getting there is also a huge barrier, for now at least. I'd argue that
    we have got it right on Earth. Sure, it's not perfect, and some have it much harder than others, but we're still here. There will always be problems when you look at things on a global scale.

    Very small percentage of the whole are doing that. Yes, that problem exists, but in the BIG PICTURE of things, it's not that relevant. You
    have to think about this on a bigger scale.

    We can't get it "perfect" here, agreed. That isn't the goal. It
    absolutely will not work the same on Mars as it does here, and it
    doesn't need to be the same. Again that's not the goal. We learn and
    adapt to the location as needed.
    Okay, then use whatever time measure you like. Use 100 years instead of
    50. Use 500 years. Any of those measures are 'microseconds' on the
    time scale of the universe. If it takes us another 1000 years to be
    able to travel to another solar system, that is fine. That accomplishes
    the goal, which is to be able to move off of this planet. You have to
    think differently with topics like this. If it takes 10,000 years,
    that's fine too. Our sun has another 4-5 billion years of life. We
    just need to figure it out by then.


    It could even be 100,000 years, there is no rush I admit. Whether we exist on Earth that lot and don't wipe ourselves out is another matter. Which begs the question, what IS the lifespan of our species? I would rate environmental degradation, or technological accident as a much greater threat than the sun. PRjections are that Earth will dry up in a billion years, and there are many opportunities before that for us to send ourselves back to the stone age.

    The issue I have with the talk of space colonisation is more so it is the wrong focus. Yes, we should, eventually, but people like Musk act as if we must do it NOW, and many others are actually using colonising other planets as a way to argue we don't really need to worry too much about Earth. This is misguided, the possibility of colonising other planets should in no way detract from the urgency to make life here in Earth is sustainable as possible. We should logically be acting as if we wont be able to move off here.

    In other words, it is only worthwhile moving to other planets, it will only really work, when we've eliminated all the problems that we create or exacerbate here which might make us need to move. Human created climate change is the best argument AGAINST seeking to move, as we would just transfer this problem, this disease with up. Colonise new areas when you are free of pathogens.

    You're probably right on the above points, but that is largely
    "semantics". When we are talking about something as big as long
    distance space travel, the timeline stretches out. My main point is
    that we have a LONG time still left to us to get it figured out, and I believe we will. All of this in spite of the "climate change" worriers wringing their hands and predicting doom. Yes, that is an issue, but
    it's not going to end life on Earth anytime soon.


    Climate change won't end life on Earth, but it will make it suck, which is perhaps worse. The solution may not even be space travel, we may discover how to move to parallel universes, or move our consciousness to organised energy structures in the fabric of space, or whatever. We may end up finding out how to create wormholes or fold space. Often we humans get stuck trying to solve a problem one way, when a completely different way to solve things come along.

    Travelling the vast distances of space is what we *THINK* is necessary to move to other planets which is what we *THINK* is necessary, but new knowledge and discoveries could turn all that upside down.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:02:21
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sat Jul 23 2022 08:02 am

    Not so much a "misunderstanding", but a complete "lack of
    understanding". The idiots who believe such things are either
    inherently stupid, or completely uneducated, or both.

    It's mostly stupidity. They are usually educated enough to be able to read.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:05:09
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:34 am

    Unfortunately, it still brings about changes, but a lot of them are not improvements. I see it as more of a source of potential disinformation, scams, fraud, etc., than any source before it.


    I think this is more a function of how the Internet is organised, and Social Media, which is surveillance driven Capitalism.

    Social Media really amped these problems, and they exist because of a business model, not a technology. A lot of "tech advancements" is really just some 'innovation' of a new business model. Uber, Twitter, Canva, all those online serves.

    the business model is the problem.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:06:21
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:36 am

    They had a ship "in the air" over the Moon during the period that Apollo 11 their mission was unmanned and (maybe) did not ever land there.

    They did monitor it, and even contacted the US government and congratulated them on the achievement

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:13:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 12:24 pm

    Is it really harder than we thought? I thought it was fairly well understood that finding a habitable planet would be fairly rare, since it seems all up to chance that the conditions are good enough on a planet to support human life. We've been seeing more and more planets in the galaxy, and I think I've only heard of maybe a couple that they think might be habitable, and they're fairly far out there.


    We are understanding more that having rocky planets in the inner part of the system, in a habitable zone is a fairly unique scenario. Planetary systems don't evolve typically to give the arrangement we had, which is what I meant by it would be hard. It isn't just the fact that life arose which makes Earth unique, but also fairly chance encounters which gave the Earth its position in the solar system, relatively free from frequent impacts.

    Also, what supports human life is better understood and is more restrictive than we thought. In the 70's we could only speculate. When we found exoplanets we knew other systems were common, but now that we've looked were back to not just speculating that Earth is unqiue, but KNOWING that it is unique. Life may be supported in many places, but to support human life, mentally as well as physically, that is hard.

    One one hand techonlogy enables us to move to different areas, but on the other hand increased knowledge throws out awareness of all the pitfalls. And just managing to stay alive isn't enough, we need somewhere where we won't fall into depression, develop mental disorders and despondency. That would destroy a civilisation starting out in space.

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Saturday, July 23, 2022 18:25:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:55 pm

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon
    put in its place.

    The bastards! ;-)

    You can thank Dr. Evil and his moon base team for that.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Sunday, July 24, 2022 11:30:18
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:31 pm

    they have literal interviews with nasa employees recorded inside of nasa
    NO. they say they don't understand how it happened and they
    could not duplicate it.

    what i dont understand is how you can lose telemetry data AND the original recordings.


    Did they lose all the recordings? You can download a lot of them which they found.

    And which interviews? Have a link?
    They didn't lose all the data, they lost some of the video which exists elsewhere anyway.

    This wasn't the 2000's, where you would have APOLLO11_TELEMETRY_1.DAT files on a 1T RAID 1 hard drive, the data was stored on magnetic tapes which you'd struggle to read. They did mess up and lose some data yes, stuff ups occur.

    But to believe this somehow proves the entire thing was fake, flies in the fall of all the other evidence that it happened.

    It's just insane and your reasoning is shoddy. Apollo 11 was not the only mission. They would have had to have faked them ALL. Apollo 12, 13, 14.

    I'm supposed to believe they managed to get away with faking it all over a period of years, with thousands of people involved, based on your assertion that they deleted all the data and some interviews where they are saying we couldn't do it today.

    You have no evidence at all that it was faked. Nothing, only "this doesn't make sense", which is how all conspiracy theory nutcases justify their nonsense.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Saturday, July 23, 2022 21:36:07
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:49 pm

    In 1991 I was able to tour a remake of the Pinta, a replica of one of Columbus' ships that was built for the 500th anniversary of Columbus's voyage. From stem to stern the entire boat was under 100 feet. It wasn't like those huge boats we see in the movies. It had a hold and a captain's cab in. Since the hold would be filled with everything they'd need, the crew had to sleep on the deck. The replica had for US Coast Guard regulations radios and a diesel engine installed for safety reasons, however


    outer space is much more dangerous. I've seen the equipment. I wouldn't go out into a hail storm with that stuff. much less a vacuum of outer space with space debris racing past all the time.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, July 23, 2022 21:38:33
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sun Jul 24 2022 11:30 am


    they have literal interviews with nasa employees recorded inside of nasa NO. they say they don't understand how it happened and they
    could not duplicate it.

    what i dont understand is how you can lose telemetry data AND the original recordings.


    Did they lose all the recordings? You can download a lot of them which they found.


    they said they did. the video now is from a private person

    And which interviews? Have a link?

    youtube.com

    They didn't lose all the data, they lost some of the video which exists elsewhere anyway.

    they lost the original video.


    But to believe this somehow proves the entire thing was fake, flies in the fall of all the other evidence that it happened.


    i'm not say it proves it's fake. i'm saying i smell bullshit and there is bullshit. you are the one blindly believing something.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Sunday, July 24, 2022 09:36:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    But to believe this somehow proves the entire thing was fake, flies in the fall of all the other evidence that it happened.

    i'm not say it proves it's fake. i'm saying i smell bullshit and
    there is bullshit.

    You smell bullshit because you need to take a bath. Quit wasting folks'
    time here and go do that.

    you are the one blindly believing something.

    It's not "blindly", you freaking moron. It's based on the evidence
    we've seen.

    Go back and repeat 4th grade.



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to BORAXMAN on Sunday, July 24, 2022 10:38:00
    I think this is more a function of how the Internet is organised, and Social M
    ia, which is surveillance driven Capitalism.

    Social Media really amped these problems, and they exist because of a business
    odel, not a technology. A lot of "tech advancements" is really just some 'inn
    ation' of a new business model. Uber, Twitter, Canva, all those online serves

    the business model is the problem.

    I would agree with that, to a point. Then you have the dark web, which is
    full of misinformation and fanatics (and fraud). It has little to do with
    the social media craze, advertising, or any business models.


    * SLMR 2.1a * If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dumas Walker on Sunday, July 24, 2022 07:52:00
    Dumas Walker wrote to OGG <=-

    To my knowledge, most of the US Apollo missions before Apollo 11 did
    not have landings as part of their mission. There was at least one
    that was meant to orbit only (9 or 10), and it was a success.


    No, if you look at the mission profiles, NASA took it all very methodically. Apollo 7 tested removing the LM and stayed in orbit as long as a trip to the moon would take. Apollo 8 orbited the moon. Apollo 9 did more tests. Apollo 10, if I remember, sent two astronauts in the LM to the moon, but didn't
    land.

    After Apollo 1, they couldn't afford another accident - and didn't want dead astronauts floating in space somewhere.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Gamgee on Sunday, July 24, 2022 08:00:00
    Gamgee wrote to Ogg <=-

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    Wrong again. All that I listed above were successful landings by
    unmanned spacecraft. Not all of the Russian ones made it back to
    Earth, and they did have some crash landings.

    Some, like the early Soviet and US launches were designed to crash into the moon, as we hadn't figured out how to land there yet.


    ... Overtly resist change
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, July 24, 2022 13:14:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    Wrong again. All that I listed above were successful landings by
    unmanned spacecraft. Not all of the Russian ones made it back to
    Earth, and they did have some crash landings.

    Some, like the early Soviet and US launches were designed to
    crash into the moon, as we hadn't figured out how to land there
    yet.

    Yes, agreed. I was just trying to convince Ogg that there certainly
    have been successful moon landings *since* Apollo 11, which he was
    claiming there had not been.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, July 24, 2022 13:21:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    To my knowledge, most of the US Apollo missions before Apollo 11 did
    not have landings as part of their mission. There was at least one
    that was meant to orbit only (9 or 10), and it was a success.

    No, if you look at the mission profiles, NASA took it all very methodically. Apollo 7 tested removing the LM and stayed in orbit
    as long as a trip to the moon would take. Apollo 8 orbited the
    moon. Apollo 9 did more tests. Apollo 10, if I remember, sent two astronauts in the LM to the moon, but didn't land.

    Yes! I had forgotten that, and had to look it up. Apollo 10 crew flew
    the LM down to 50,000 feet above the moon, and then returned. Freakin awesome.

    Here's a decent summary of the missions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program#Mission_summary


    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:16:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:36 am

    If the landings were faked, the Soviets would have never let the world hea end of it. They tracked the mission too.

    They had a ship "in the air" over the Moon during the period that Apollo 11 was on the surface. IIRC, they were trying to beat us to the Moon, but their mission was unmanned and (maybe) did not ever land there.


    * SLMR 2.1a * My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air...


    The Russians had booster design issues that prevented them from being even close to sending a manned mission. The Lunokhod missions where they sent a drone to the moon's surface was much later.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:19:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:46 am

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, dr m off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely.

    The Nazis were a bad, bad group, but they did a lot to quickly accelerate science, especially when it came to rocketry and other tech. They were intent on using it for future warfare and were desperate to get an edge on the British, Americans, and Soviets. Their immediate goals were rockets that could travel long distances within the Earth's atmosphere or near-orbit but they also had goals for moving beyond into space. They had all sorts
    of ideas, some ludicrous and some with potential, when it came to advancing warfare via space.

    After the war, there were a lot of smart people with new ideas that were liberated/taken prisoner/accepted into the science communities of the US
    and Soviet governments.

    The rocket tech was there as early as the 1940's, but needed refinement to g it resized and working correctly for any goals beyond "near-Earth" space. They took ~20 years to get it there.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...

    When Von Braun was testing the V2 rockets during WWII, he said the tests
    were a success, exept they were pointing them at the wrong planet.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:21:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to OGG on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:53 am

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15,
    Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were
    those "faked" too?

    There were also at least SIX unmanned landings by Russia
    since then, and at least THREE unmanned landings by China.
    Three of the Russian landings (the 'Luna' spacecraft
    series) returned rock samples to the Earth.

    MOST (not necessarily those) were crash/failed landings.

    The Russian and Chinese ones might have been (I don't know enough about their programs), but the Apollo missions he lists were all successful landings.

    I know there have been failures by all three countries but, IIRC, the only US mission that failed after Apollo 11 was Apollo 13. Russia had some failures before Apollo 11 for sure. As far as we know, all but possibly
    one were unmanned.

    To my knowledge, most of the US Apollo missions before Apollo 11 did not hav landings as part of their mission. There was at least one that was meant
    to orbit only (9 or 10), and it was a success.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A momentary lapse of reason that binds a life to a life..

    The Chinese have only been doing space missions in the last 20 or so years.
    40 years ago they had trouble feeding their people.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:27:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 12:24 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Gamgee on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:05 pm

    The problem is finding somewhere habitable. That is a much harder probl than we thought. Scientific bases in space make sense, but we can't liv

    Is it really harder than we thought? I thought it was fairly well understoo ore and more planets in the galaxy, and I think I've only heard of maybe a c

    Nightfox

    Planets have been detected by the variations or "wobbling" of stars light
    that indicates there are planets orbitting them. Space is so vast, the
    odds improve as they find more and more systems with planets.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:32:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:31 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 04:39 pm

    You might think things were more primitive 50 years ago, but they just weren't.

    there's a lot of strange facts and occurances that just don't add up. people that want to believe it happened ignore them.

    Just watch the interviews about them describing space. they say all ki of different things.

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody can make heads of tails of it. there's a lot of conflicting stories and information.



    That isn't evidence of anything.

    they have literal interviews with nasa employees recorded inside of nasa

    You argument basically amounts to "I don't
    understand how it could have happened".

    NO. they say they don't understand how it happened and they
    could not duplicate it.

    what i dont understand is how you can lose telemetry data AND the original r


    due to ignorance as it is to some fundamental reason for why it couldn't

    ignorance is blindly believing something without questioning it.

    The moon landings aren't out of place with the technology of the era. We built nuclear bombs 25 years before that! There was all sorts of sophisticated technology.

    dude, building a bomb is a lot easier than landing on the moon and coming ba

    Soviets digging something up (or simply admitting it didn't happen, as th would have KNOWN if it was fake), is even less than the probility of them being able to do it.

    they were good at keeping a secret.

    something strange was certainly going on with that whole situation.
    there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.
    NASA has storage issues with keeping older documents / hard copies down in Florida. Some items sit in non-climate controlled warehouses, and fall
    victim to damaage, especially when hurricane weather damages these buildings.
    Materials get move to dry building as time goes by, but some materials are
    so water damaged or moldy, they get tossed.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:38:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:35 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 04:47 pm

    the first hand video evidence was DESTROYED.
    that is a fact.

    Recorded over. Lack of foresight, and it wasn't all destroyed. It's not unimaginable. The mission was done, dusted, completed, the data they WAN

    it's either recorded over or lost. or destroyed.

    The mission was done, dusted, completed, the data they WANTED
    to get from it obtained.

    they fucking literally said they lost the data.


    If they went to the moon and took photos, you'd probably claim that was faked. So it is with conspiracy theorists.



    You're actually believing in the conspiracy that it DID happen. and you are
    time.
    50 years of storm damage to non-climate controlled warehouses tkaes it's toll on storing tapes and paperwork. NASA wanted to create improved versions of th e Saturn V rockets, however there are gaps in their data. Some fixes were
    made to improve the engines were scribbled on napkins or supplemental
    drawings that may not have been archived properly. They have resorted in
    some cases to ask collectors of Apollo era scrap to share their engine parts
    so they can see the changes in design that did not get made on the original blueprints.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:46:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:53 pm

    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Yup, it is crazy indeed. But, in case you hadn't heard... The next step is called the Artemis Program, and the first (unmanned) launch is in late August or early September. This won't land on the moon, but go beyond it and come back. The schedule has actual humans landing on the moon again by 2025. Exciting stuff.

    Hopefully, this time, people will pay attention. I remember being
    a kid and being totally excited for Apollo 17, Skylab, and Apollo/Soyuz. It seemed like the adults had all moved on after
    Apollo 11.

    Yup, I hope so too. It's about the coolest thing going, IMHO. Sure
    would like to see things go smoothly and for them to get additional
    funding. We waste so much money on garbage, and this kind of thing
    seems to get overlooked. I think it's very important, perhaps even critical, for the future of the entire planet.



    ... You can't save yourselves. But you can save your legacy. -Hari Seldon

    Space has to make itself profitable to get past the pure scientific reason
    the leave the planet. The cost of sending items into space is cost
    prohibitve. Last I heard the price was like $10,000 USD a pound. A 200
    pound astronaut by himself is $2 million.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:47:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:55 pm

    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

    You should really try to study some science before making such ridiculous statements. It makes you look ignorant.

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon
    put in its place.

    The bastards! ;-)



    ... Strip mining prevents forest fires.
    That's what you get when you store radioactive waste on the dark side of the moon.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:51:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Sat Jul 23 2022 06:25 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:55 pm

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon
    put in its place.

    The bastards! ;-)

    You can thank Dr. Evil and his moon base team for that.

    Nightfox

    Moon Base Alpha's waste storage facility

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Monday, July 25, 2022 00:54:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sun Jul 24 2022 11:30 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:31 pm

    they have literal interviews with nasa employees recorded inside of nasa NO. they say they don't understand how it happened and they
    could not duplicate it.

    what i dont understand is how you can lose telemetry data AND the origina recordings.


    Did they lose all the recordings? You can download a lot of them which they

    And which interviews? Have a link?
    They didn't lose all the data, they lost some of the video which exists else

    This wasn't the 2000's, where you would have APOLLO11_TELEMETRY_1.DAT files

    But to believe this somehow proves the entire thing was fake, flies in the f

    It's just insane and your reasoning is shoddy. Apollo 11 was not the only m

    I'm supposed to believe they managed to get away with faking it all over a p

    You have no evidence at all that it was faked. Nothing, only "this doesn't


    I've read about collectors who were able buy old NASA tape drives and comput ers that hooked into them for scrap prices, and set them up in basements and garages. They occasionally get visits from engineers that have tapes that require reading.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 01:07:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:36 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:49 pm

    In 1991 I was able to tour a remake of the Pinta, a replica of one of Columbus' ships that was built for the 500th anniversary of Columbus's voyage. From stem to stern the entire boat was under 100 feet. It wasn' like those huge boats we see in the movies. It had a hold and a captain' cab in. Since the hold would be filled with everything they'd need, the crew had to sleep on the deck. The replica had for US Coast Guard regulations radios and a diesel engine installed for safety reasons, howe


    outer space is much more dangerous. I've seen the equipment. I wouldn't go

    Crossing the ocean 500 years ago was probably as dangerous.
    Creating tools to navigate by the stars was the only saving grace.
    Ships that lost sight of the shore often didn't come back. They at least
    knew the planet was round, but had no idea how big the diameter was.
    Columbus never made it to the mainland Americas. He found some islands, restocked and went home. In effect they made a blind jump and stumble upon islands by pure luck.

    ---
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  • From faeempress@VERT/KUMPUTE to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 11:54:00
    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely. no fucking way.
    O.o What the f..? You'd get along great with my stepdad, he thought
    Covid was a hoax. I don't understand the ignorance of people...

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    + Faeland MUD + fsxnet + CiberNET + DOVE-Net +

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  • From Dux@VERT/PATHUNKN to Boraxman on Monday, July 25, 2022 10:35:04
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Gamgee on Sun Jul 24 2022 11:01 am

    In other words, it is only worthwhile moving to other planets, it will only really work, when we've eliminated all t
    problems that we create or exacerbate here which might make us need to move. Human created climate change is the be
    argument AGAINST seeking to move, as we would just transfer this problem, this disease with up. Colonise new areas
    when you are free of pathogens.

    It wouldn't be the first time humans have focused their time, money, and mental energies on vacations while letting
    their homes rot.

    That said, from our point of view there is very little to lose on other celestial bodies we know of and have a
    reasonable capability to reach -- they all appear to be devoid of all forms of life _as we know them_ -- so I'm not too
    worried about screw up the Martian biosphere, but I am worried that in our lust for achievement we're willing to cause
    major damage here in the process (our history is also littered with examples of technological progress at the price of
    ecology).

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ pathunknown.net
  • From Dux@VERT/PATHUNKN to Nightfox on Monday, July 25, 2022 10:37:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Sat Jul 23 2022 06:25 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 05:55 pm

    We all know it was blown out of orbit in 1999, and the fake moon
    put in its place.

    The bastards! ;-)

    You can thank Dr. Evil and his moon base team for that.

    Nightfox


    At least it wiped out the 'CHA' that had been there before...

    (any The Tick fans out there, I hope?)

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ pathunknown.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:11:32
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:16 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:36 am

    If the landings were faked, the Soviets would have never let the world hea end of it. They tracked the mission too.

    They had a ship "in the air" over the Moon during the period that Apollo 11 was on the surface. IIRC, they were trying to beat us to the Moon, but their mission was unmanned and (maybe) did not ever land there.


    the russians took a lot of risks and were very good at what they did.
    they didn't have to fake anything. the usa did.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:12:09
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:21 am


    The Chinese have only been doing space missions in the last 20 or so years. 40 years ago they had trouble feeding their people.


    it's not profitable to do space missions.
    they are too better being better at everything than everyone else.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:20:34
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:32 am

    NASA has storage issues with keeping older documents / hard copies down in Florida. Some items sit in non-climate controlled warehouses, and fall victim to damaage, especially when hurricane weather damages these buildings.
    Materials get move to dry building as time goes by, but some materials are so water damaged or moldy, they get tossed.

    boy you just keep making more and more excuses. you are blind.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:21:35
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:38 am


    You're actually believing in the conspiracy that it DID happen. and you are
    time.

    50 years of storm damage to non-climate controlled warehouses tkaes it's

    is this something new you googled?

    okay then why did they leave it there for 50 years? why do they not
    have copies?

    drawings that may not have been archived properly. They have resorted in some cases to ask collectors of Apollo era scrap to share their engine parts so they can see the changes in design that did not get made on the original blueprints.


    if this is true, that's pathetic.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:22:19
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:54 am


    I've read about collectors who were able buy old NASA tape drives and comput ers that hooked into them for scrap prices, and set them up in basements and garages. They occasionally get visits from engineers that have tapes that require reading.

    sure they do.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:25:16
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 01:07 am

    Crossing the ocean 500 years ago was probably as dangerous.

    yet people were doing it.

    Creating tools to navigate by the stars was the only saving grace.

    yet people were doing it.


    "Ships that lost sight of the shore often didn't come back"

    where do you get this shit?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to faeempress on Monday, July 25, 2022 14:25:57
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: faeempress to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:54 am

    O.o What the f..? You'd get along great with my stepdad, he thought
    Covid was a hoax. I don't understand the ignorance of people...


    i don't know why you go from the moon landing to covid.

    take your meds.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 16:02:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Jul 22 2022 09:20 pm

    dude, money is no object when you are the government. it's not a real thing.

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely. no fucking way.

    that's 50 years ago. i saw the stuff for the mission. it's junk. i wouldn't wear that junk in a rain storm, much less outerspace.

    I've been to the same museum. It's "flimsy" because they needed to keep the weight down. If they were going to fake stuff, they would have used material that was much stronger to give the appearance of things being "spaceworthy". It was far more expensive to construct the lander and the capsule out of lightweight honeycombed aluminum than it would have been to use heavier solid aluminum panels.

    there's a lot of strange things that do not add up. I don't know if anybody can make heads of tails of it. there's a lot of conflicting stories and information. ---

    Here's the thing, you can say that there's "conflicting information" yadda yadda, but Apollo 11 left a Lunar Laser Ranging RetroReflector Array (It's a set of mirrors), with which the Lick Observatory telescope was able to pinpoint with a laser, and observe the reflection on August 1, 1969.

    Apollo 14 and 15 also left (larger) arrays on the moon.

    And no, it isn't just a laser bouncing off the moon's surface, we've been doing that since 1962, and there's a very, very noticable difference in how the laser light is returned off the surface of the moon, vs one of the sets of mirrors.

    The arrays have been hit by observatories all over the world. if the USSR wasn't able to hit it (they were), they would have made a stink about it.




    DaiTengu

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 16:34:09
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Jul 23 2022 09:36 pm

    outer space is much more dangerous. I've seen the equipment. I wouldn't go out into a hail storm with that stuff. much less a vacuum of outer space with space debris racing past all the time. ---

    Space is big. Like, really big. You may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space!

    Even with all the junk currently flying around up there, collisions are rare. That said, the ISS does have to adjust its orbit from time to time to avoid colliding with a micrometeor.

    Micrometeors were a concern in the Apollo missions, and that's why there was a micrometeroid sheld held 2" off from the skin of the lunar module with fiberglass inserts. There was a gold mylar thermal blanket in between.

    You can read about it on page 7 of this document (which is actually for LM-4, for Apollo 10.)
    https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/LM04_Lunar_Module_ppLV1-17.pdf

    Fun facts: the ascent stage of LM-4 was jettisoned into lunar
    orbit, but was not tracked after 1969. In June 2019 London's Royal Astronomical Society said they believe they rediscovered it and labeled it "asteroid 2018 AV2"
    The descent stage was ejected it lunar orbit. It is unknown if it ever impacted on the moon, or if it's still in orbit.

    Apollo 10 did everything that Apollo 11 did except actually land on the moon. 2 months later, Niel and Buzz actually did it.

    DaiTengu

    ... If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL!

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Monday, July 25, 2022 16:18:00
    To my knowledge, most of the US Apollo missions before Apollo 11 did
    not have landings as part of their mission. There was at least one
    that was meant to orbit only (9 or 10), and it was a success.

    No, if you look at the mission profiles, NASA took it all very methodically. Apollo 7 tested removing the LM and stayed in orbit as long as a trip to the moon would take. Apollo 8 orbited the moon. Apollo 9 did more tests. Apollo 10, if I remember, sent two astronauts in the LM to the moon, but didn't land.

    I think we are in agreement on the methodical part. Comparing what you
    said to what I did, it sounds like I just had the numbers wrong (not 9 or
    10). :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * "My therapist was right...God DOES hate me!!!"-J.Sherman

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Monday, July 25, 2022 16:19:00
    The rocket tech was there as early as the 1940's, but needed refinement to it resized and working correctly for any goals beyond "near-Earth" space. They took ~20 years to get it there.

    When Von Braun was testing the V2 rockets during WWII, he said the tests were a success, exept they were pointing them at the wrong planet.

    Indeed. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I am EVIL Homer! I am EVIL Homer!" - Homer

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Monday, July 25, 2022 18:14:54
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:02 pm


    I've been to the same museum. It's "flimsy" because they needed to keep the weight down. If they were going to fake stuff, they would have used material that was much stronger to give the appearance of things being "spaceworthy". It was far more expensive to construct the lander and the capsule out of lightweight honeycombed aluminum than it would have been to use heavier solid aluminum panels.

    i just don't mean that stuff. i mean everything.
    the suits, the foil, everything.

    nobody in their right mind would go out in space with that junk.
    I have photos of it someplace

    it all looks like junk.
    https://i.imgur.com/rvKOpyM.jpg

    stories and information. ---

    Here's the thing, you can say that there's "conflicting information" yadda yadda, but Apollo 11 left a Lunar Laser Ranging RetroReflector Array (It's a set of mirrors), with which the Lick Observatory telescope was able to pinpoint with a laser, and observe the reflection on August 1, 1969.

    Apollo 14 and 15 also left (larger) arrays on the moon.



    that doesnt mean live people went there and back. they could have just used an unmanned rocket to drop it off.

    eventually when nobody cares we will find out the funny shit they pulled with this mission.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Monday, July 25, 2022 18:17:22
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:34 pm

    outer space is much more dangerous. I've seen the equipment. I wouldn't go out into a hail storm with that stuff. much less a vacuum of outer space with space debris racing past all the time. ---
    Space is big. Like, really big. You may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space!

    Even with all the junk currently flying around up there, collisions are rare. That said, the ISS does have to adjust its orbit from time to time to avoid colliding with a micrometeor.


    i've heard both things. i've heard that there's micro rocks blasting through space at all times that could shred up equipment in space.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 20:17:28
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Jul 25 2022 06:14 pm

    I've been to the same museum. It's "flimsy" because they needed to
    keep the weight down. If they were going to fake stuff, they would
    have used material that was much stronger to give the appearance of
    things being "spaceworthy". It was far more expensive to construct the
    lander and the capsule out of lightweight honeycombed aluminum than it
    would have been to use heavier solid aluminum panels.

    i just don't mean that stuff. i mean everything.
    the suits, the foil, everything.

    nobody in their right mind would go out in space with that junk.
    I have photos of it someplace

    it all looks like junk.
    https://i.imgur.com/rvKOpyM.jpg


    Looks fine to me. I've examined it close up, too. I know how it was made, what it was made out of, and I would have been comfortable putting it on and exiting a vehicle on the moon were I properly trained at that time. These suits are 50+ years old and have been moved in and out of display cases, and into/out of storage quite a lot over that time.

    Armstrong's suit was taken off display in the mid 00's due to concern about deteriation. It was restored over the course of many years, and put back on display in 2019.

    I think the image you posted was James Irwin's suit from Apollo 15. I can't see the name, but it looks like the same display I took a picture of.
    https://i.imgur.com/SXpt0d2.png

    It's not in the best shape, there's definite deteriation going on (my picture is from early 2020), but I'm guessing it's not as high priority as Aldrin's or Armstrong's.

    DaiTengu

    ... Don't force it, get a larger hammer.

    ---
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 20:35:58
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Jul 25 2022 06:17 pm

    Space is big. Like, really big. You may think it's a long way down the
    street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space!

    Even with all the junk currently flying around up there, collisions
    are rare. That said, the ISS does have to adjust its orbit from time
    to time to avoid colliding with a micrometeor.

    i've heard both things. i've heard that there's micro rocks blasting through space at all times that could shred up equipment in space.

    It can, and it does occasionally. EVA suits currently worn by people on the ISS when the do spacewalks have quite a few layers of kevlar and other materials that can protect against micrometeoroids (like paint chips). EVA suits on the ISS must be refurbished every 25 EVAs, or 6 years, whichever comes first.

    The suits on the ISS are probably at least 30 years old, and have gone through quite a few rounds of refurbishment by now. The materials aren't that much different from the materials that went into the Apollo 11 suits, it's just that the apollo 11 suits weren't designed to protect against micrometeors since their occupants were on a body with a significant gravitational field, and not zipping around in low earth orbit at 17,000 miles per hour.

    DaiTengu

    ... Degeneration and evolution are not the same thing.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to faeempress on Monday, July 25, 2022 20:21:00
    faeempress wrote to MRO <=-

    1969. we did NOT have the technology to bring a spacecraft with people, drop them off, let them walk around on the moon and bring them back safely. no fucking way.

    O.o What the f..? You'd get along great with my stepdad, he
    thought Covid was a hoax. I don't understand the ignorance of
    people...

    I think you're relatively new here... Meet 'MRO', the resident moron of DoveNet. This is what he does. Just laugh at him like everyone else
    does. He's a special case.


    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:28:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:20 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:32 am

    NASA has storage issues with keeping older documents / hard copies down i Florida. Some items sit in non-climate controlled warehouses, and fall victim to damaage, especially when hurricane weather damages these buildings.
    Materials get move to dry building as time goes by, but some materials a so water damaged or moldy, they get tossed.

    boy you just keep making more and more excuses. you are blind.

    I have no reason to make excuses. NASA has proiblems storing matterials in warehouses in that region due to hurricanes.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:33:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:21 pm


    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 12:38 am


    You're actually believing in the conspiracy that it DID happen. and y are
    time.

    50 years of storm damage to non-climate controlled warehouses tkaes it's

    is this something new you googled?

    okay then why did they leave it there for 50 years? why do they not
    have copies?

    drawings that may not have been archived properly. They have resorted in some cases to ask collectors of Apollo era scrap to share their engine pa so they can see the changes in design that did not get made on the origin blueprints.


    if this is true, that's pathetic.

    I cannot speak for NASA's operations regarding archival storage or document control. It is no secret they have lost or displaced more data than they havke made efforts to make alternate copies. Not everything is considered worth being kept as museum quality.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:35:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:25 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 01:07 am

    Crossing the ocean 500 years ago was probably as dangerous.

    yet people were doing it.

    Creating tools to navigate by the stars was the only saving grace.

    yet people were doing it.


    "Ships that lost sight of the shore often didn't come back"

    where do you get this shit?

    This is in refernece to the difficulty of making it thto the moon and back. The tools existed, yet were primitive. As you say, "yet they were doing it."

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:47:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Jul 25 2022 06:14 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:02 pm


    I've been to the same museum. It's "flimsy" because they needed to keep weight down. If they were going to fake stuff, they would have used mater that was much stronger to give the appearance of things being "spaceworth It was far more expensive to construct the lander and the capsule out of lightweight honeycombed aluminum than it would have been to use heavier solid aluminum panels.

    i just don't mean that stuff. i mean everything.
    the suits, the foil, everything.

    nobody in their right mind would go out in space with that junk.
    I have photos of it someplace

    it all looks like junk.
    https://i.imgur.com/rvKOpyM.jpg

    stories and information. ---

    Here's the thing, you can say that there's "conflicting information" yad yadda, but Apollo 11 left a Lunar Laser Ranging RetroReflector Array (It' set of mirrors), with which the Lick Observatory telescope was able to pinpoint with a laser, and observe the reflection on August 1, 1969.

    Apollo 14 and 15 also left (larger) arrays on the moon.



    that doesnt mean live people went there and back. they could have just used

    eventually when nobody cares we will find out the funny shit they pulled wit

    How would you explain the tracks left by the astronauts? They're observable
    by probes sent to the moon. In later missions they brougt along a moon
    buggy. There are tracks left by that as well. Way more than would've been possible trying to drive a remote vehicle would've done.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, July 25, 2022 23:48:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Jul 25 2022 06:17 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:34 pm

    outer space is much more dangerous. I've seen the equipment. I would go out into a hail storm with that stuff. much less a vacuum of oute space with space debris racing past all the time. ---
    Space is big. Like, really big. You may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space!

    Even with all the junk currently flying around up there, collisions are rare. That said, the ISS does have to adjust its orbit from time to time avoid colliding with a micrometeor.


    i've heard both things. i've heard that there's micro rocks blasting throug space at all times that could shred up equipment in space.

    Chips of paint at adequate velocities act as dangerous projectiles.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dux on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 20:55:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dux to Boraxman on Mon Jul 25 2022 10:35 am

    It wouldn't be the first time humans have focused their time, money, and mental energies on vacations while letting
    their homes rot.

    That said, from our point of view there is very little to lose on other celestial bodies we know of and have a
    reasonable capability to reach -- they all appear to be devoid of all forms of life _as we know them_ -- so I'm not too
    worried about screw up the Martian biosphere, but I am worried that in our lust for achievement we're willing to cause
    major damage here in the process (our history is also littered with examples of technological progress at the price of
    ecology).


    The thing is if you leave your house to rot, you don't move to another to escape until you've worked out why your original rotted in the first place. People are positing space travel as a way to get away from catastrophes, but some of them are ones we are generating, so we are likely to replicate the problems elsewhere.

    Natures limits will follow us around wherever we go.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 07:28:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dux <=-

    It wouldn't be the first time humans have focused their time, money, and mental energies on vacations while letting
    their homes rot.

    That said, from our point of view there is very little to lose on other celestial bodies we know of and have a
    reasonable capability to reach -- they all appear to be devoid of all forms of life _as we know them_ -- so I'm not too
    worried about screw up the Martian biosphere, but I am worried that in our lust for achievement we're willing to cause
    major damage here in the process (our history is also littered with examples of technological progress at the price of
    ecology).

    The thing is if you leave your house to rot, you don't move to
    another to escape until you've worked out why your original
    rotted in the first place.

    I'd argue that point by saying that if a person is the type that would
    leave his house to rot, that's *EXACTLY* what they would do. They don't *CARE* what the reason was, and are not interested in fixing the
    problem.

    People are positing space travel as a
    way to get away from catastrophes, but some of them are ones we
    are generating, so we are likely to replicate the problems
    elsewhere.

    Probably, but that gives them a fairly long interval to have a "fresh
    start", and meanwhile be looking for yet another place to live. It gets
    you down the road a piece, as they say.

    Natures limits will follow us around wherever we go.

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to,
    on a different planet... <BOGGLE>



    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Monday, July 25, 2022 07:31:00
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    That's what you get when you store radioactive waste on the dark side
    of the moon.

    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. One of the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing up.


    ... How does this work, is there an orientation?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From faeempress@VERT/SOLARIS to Gamgee on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 20:25:00
    O.o What the f..? You'd get along great with my stepdad, he people...
    people...

    I think you're relatively new here... Meet 'MRO', the resident moron of DoveNet. This is what he does. Just laugh at him like everyone else does. He's a special case.

    ok, I replied to this on my BBS and it's not showing up anywhere, though it says "sent". -_- My previous message obviously came through... arggh

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/04/26 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: ERROR 404 BBS !
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 16:31:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Tue Jul 26 2022 07:28 am

    Boraxman wrote to Dux <=-

    It wouldn't be the first time humans have focused their time, money, and mental energies on vacations while letting
    their homes rot.

    That said, from our point of view there is very little to lose on other celestial bodies we know of and have a
    reasonable capability to reach -- they all appear to be devoid of all for of life _as we know them_ -- so I'm not too
    worried about screw up the Martian biosphere, but I am worried that in ou lust for achievement we're willing to cause
    major damage here in the process (our history is also littered with examp of technological progress at the price of
    ecology).

    The thing is if you leave your house to rot, you don't move to
    another to escape until you've worked out why your original
    rotted in the first place.

    I'd argue that point by saying that if a person is the type that would
    leave his house to rot, that's *EXACTLY* what they would do. They don't *CARE* what the reason was, and are not interested in fixing the
    problem.

    People are positing space travel as a
    way to get away from catastrophes, but some of them are ones we
    are generating, so we are likely to replicate the problems
    elsewhere.

    Probably, but that gives them a fairly long interval to have a "fresh start", and meanwhile be looking for yet another place to live. It gets
    you down the road a piece, as they say.

    Natures limits will follow us around wherever we go.

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to,
    on a different planet... <BOGGLE>



    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive species. All
    of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native plants may be toxic because we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring more invasive
    species with us. Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current ecosphere of the planet.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 16:34:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 07:31 am

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    That's what you get when you store radioactive waste on the dark side of the moon.

    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. One of the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing up.


    ... How does this work, is there an orientation?

    I missed out on 1999 the first time around. I finally got to binge watch it
    a few years ago. First year was definitely better than the second, but a bit slow in a British sort of way. Brian Johnson's special effects team did an awesome job. You can see his work carry over in Empire Strikes Back withthe AT-AT minitures. When the AT-AT foot nearly steps on Luke, it reacts as if
    it has some weight to it.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:03:51
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:28 pm


    boy you just keep making more and more excuses. you are blind.

    I have no reason to make excuses. NASA has proiblems storing matterials in warehouses in that region due to hurricanes.


    so they cant move it somewhere else?
    that's too hard, right
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:04:19
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:35 pm


    This is in refernece to the difficulty of making it thto the moon and back. The tools existed, yet were primitive. As you say, "yet they were doing it."

    nope
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:04:54
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:47 pm

    How would you explain the tracks left by the astronauts? They're observable by probes sent to the moon. In later missions they brougt along a moon buggy. There are tracks left by that as well. Way more than would've been possible trying to drive a remote vehicle would've done.

    our own probes and tests say it's legit. sounds legit.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 23:05:53
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Dux on Tue Jul 26 2022 08:55 pm

    The thing is if you leave your house to rot, you don't move to another to escape until you've worked out why your original rotted in the first place.

    guess you dont know much about ethiopians.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Brokenmind@VERT/TIABBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 19:44:41
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 07:31 am

    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. One of the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing up.

    They were good shows my favorites however were BattleStar Galactica ,
    Babylon 5 and Space Above and Beyound and a few others. I also watch roku tv at times.

    BrokenMind

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Insane Asylum BBS - tiabbs.synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 20:05:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Tue Jul 26 2022 07:28 am

    I'd argue that point by saying that if a person is the type that would
    leave his house to rot, that's *EXACTLY* what they would do. They don't *CARE* what the reason was, and are not interested in fixing the
    problem.


    I agree, I meant my comment in the sense that that type of person SHOULDN'T do it.

    Probably, but that gives them a fairly long interval to have a "fresh start", and meanwhile be looking for yet another place to live. It gets
    you down the road a piece, as they say.

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to,
    on a different planet... <BOGGLE>


    I think we'll see similar limitations. Climate that is affected by atmospheric changes, ecosystems and feedback loops that respond to human induced changes. Any planet that we are going to live on would need to have an ecosystem or ecosystems of sorts, and they too will be affected by our actions.

    Earths ecosystems are quite resilient, with 4 billion years of evolution, and about half a billion of years to establish things on land. Any new planet would have brand new systems that would be quite delicate and the system could easily fall over.

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 07:43:00
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to,
    on a different planet... <BOGGLE>

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive
    species. All of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our
    lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native
    plants may be toxic because we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring more invasive species with us.
    Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current
    ecosphere of the planet.

    Probably all true, but changes nothing about the need to find another
    place to live. We'll have to deal with those types of things. Adapt
    and overcome.


    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 07:46:00
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to,
    on a different planet... <BOGGLE>

    I think we'll see similar limitations. Climate that is affected
    by atmospheric changes, ecosystems and feedback loops that
    respond to human induced changes. Any planet that we are going
    to live on would need to have an ecosystem or ecosystems of
    sorts, and they too will be affected by our actions.

    Sure, of course.

    Earths ecosystems are quite resilient, with 4 billion years of
    evolution, and about half a billion of years to establish things
    on land. Any new planet would have brand new systems that would
    be quite delicate and the system could easily fall over.

    You're making a big assumption that a new planet we might find would be
    "new". Why couldn't it also be 4-5 billion years old? I'm sure it
    wouldn't be exactly like Earth, but maybe very similar?


    ... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 10:49:20
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Jul 26 2022 04:31 pm

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive species. All of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native plants may be toxic because we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring more invasive species with us. Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current ecosphere of the planet.

    I'd think the risk isn't much worse than a group of people moving to a different continent on our planet..?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 14:46:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 10:49 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Jul 26 2022 04:31 pm

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive species. All of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native plants may be toxic because we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring more invasive species with us. Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current ecosphere of the planet.

    I'd think the risk isn't much worse than a group of people moving to a different continent on our planet..?

    Nightfox

    i think you need to watch aliens
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 13:33:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Tue Jul 26 2022 11:03 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:28 pm


    boy you just keep making more and more excuses. you are blind.

    I have no reason to make excuses. NASA has proiblems storing matterials warehouses in that region due to hurricanes.


    so they cant move it somewhere else?
    that's too hard, right

    They could move it anywhere they want. They chose to store it locally. I learned baout this about15 or so years ago. Wired magazine's blogs had a regular space section I'd read, and this was mentioned, along with the
    original videotape from the Park's observatory was also lost or misplaced.
    Any video footage we see from the moon landing is crude and grainy because it is either a recording of a recording, or lost clarity when re-broadcast via satellite to NASA and the news networks. They had a narrow bandwidth to work with, and made a video format that worked within the confines of the frequencies limitations they had. It was supposedly sharp for it's limitation s.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 13:35:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Tue Jul 26 2022 11:04 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:47 pm

    How would you explain the tracks left by the astronauts? They're observa by probes sent to the moon. In later missions they brougt along a moon buggy. There are tracks left by that as well. Way more than would've be possible trying to drive a remote vehicle would've done.

    our own probes and tests say it's legit. sounds legit.

    Other nations sent probes to orbit the moon. why aren't they calling foul?

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Brokenmind on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 13:52:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Brokenmind to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 26 2022 07:44 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Mon Jul 25 2022 07:31 am

    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. On of the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing up.

    They were good shows my favorites however were BattleStar Galactica , Babylon 5 and Space Above and Beyound and a few others. I also watch roku tv

    BrokenMind

    Before the FCC changed the guidelines for what is considered "family hour"
    TV, Glenn Larsen was goingto follow a differnt approach regarding a second season of BSG. Galactica 1980 was an abomination due to the new ruling and lower budget.

    In order to get more adult viewers, Larsen was advised to give more depth to his characters. Apollo's son Boxey was going to killed off early, whixh in turn would cause Apollo a falling out with his friends and especially Adama,
    so Starbuck would be forced to become more responsible and act as a proxy son to Adama. This would even further cause a rift between Apollo and Starbuck. Otherwise the story lines would be what most would consider common sci-fi/ fantasy TV. For example, they find a small band of "immortals" that had been to Earth, and know the way, however they can never leave the planet because
    it is the source of their long life. A plot device that would be in nearly ev ery episode would be Apollo find love or a reason to live, only if he stays behind. As the story line goes along, they learn the immortals lost contact with the Earth colony thousand s of years earlier, and fear they will not be
    at a technical level to assist in fending off the cylons.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 13:57:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 07:43 am

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Probably, unless "Nature" has a different definition than we're used to, on a different planet... <BOGGLE>

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive
    species. All of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our
    lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native
    plants may be toxic because we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring more invasive species with us.
    Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current
    ecosphere of the planet.

    Probably all true, but changes nothing about the need to find another
    place to live. We'll have to deal with those types of things. Adapt
    and overcome.


    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

    It's an ethical dilemma I'm sure some would justify panetary genocide of
    alien pant and animal species in the name of preserving human life. The alter native for long term habitation is genetically altering humans so they can
    eat otherwise inedible or toxic plants.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 16:21:50
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 01:35 pm


    our own probes and tests say it's legit. sounds legit.

    Other nations sent probes to orbit the moon. why aren't they calling foul?

    who did?
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 16:11:00
    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. One of the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing up.

    We used to get COMET here which I think had Space:1999 and I know it had
    the 1990's The Outer Limits. Unfortunately, the TV station that was
    carrying it as a subchannel dropped it in favor of another, non-sci-fi
    network.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Don't touch me...I'll wound your inner child!" - Beavis

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 18:45:00
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Probably all true, but changes nothing about the need to find another
    place to live. We'll have to deal with those types of things. Adapt
    and overcome.

    It's an ethical dilemma I'm sure some would justify panetary
    genocide of alien pant and animal species in the name of
    preserving human life. The alter native for long term habitation
    is genetically altering humans so they can eat otherwise inedible
    or toxic plants.

    Well, honestly, if we went to all the trouble of traveling (however far
    to this new world), wouldn't it be assumed that we'll do what we have to
    in order to survive? The alternative would be to just roll over and
    give up the mission. Pretty standard procedure for an "invading force"
    to try and take over by force if necessary, and let the strongest
    survive. Top of the food chain kind of thing. <SHRUG>



    ... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 18:49:00
    Moondog wrote to MRO <=-

    How would you explain the tracks left by the astronauts? They're observa by probes sent to the moon. In later missions they brougt along a moon buggy. There are tracks left by that as well. Way more than would've be possible trying to drive a remote vehicle would've done.

    our own probes and tests say it's legit. sounds legit.

    Other nations sent probes to orbit the moon. why aren't they
    calling foul?

    More actual factual evidence like that will only confuse MRO more than
    he already is (if that's possible). He's got his story and he's
    sticking to it, regardless of what anyone says.

    Probably not worth wasting your time on the buffoon.



    ... Strip mining prevents forest fires.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 23:46:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 10:49 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Jul 26 2022 04:31 pm

    Even if we found a compatible plkanet, we would be an invasive species. All of our germs, bacteria, microbes that live in our lungs, skin, and digestive system will also be invasive. Native plants may be toxic beca we were not developed as part of that ecosystem. We'd have to bring mor invasive species with us. Let us hope they take hold without destroying the current ecosphere of the planet.

    I'd think the risk isn't much worse than a group of people moving to a diffe

    Nightfox

    The ingredients for life will be the same, except the measurements of such ingredients will affect the recipe. Plants may be harder to digest,
    miccrobes that are otherwise benign in their ecosystem may be more aggressive when dealing with Earth organisms.

    When explorers travelled to other continents, some plants and animals were different, but they all evolved from the same origin specie as what was back
    in Europe, Africa, wherever. There were variations and mutations over time, but they were all based from the same primordial goo that everything else was derived from. If a planet has all the ingredients for life, yet no life exists, that may be a red flag warning there might be a reason the right chemicals and enzymes never mixed. Even in our ecosystem, we have virii and bacteria our bodies ahve little or no defense from. Imagine going to another planet, then having to write a new rule book regarding how Earthboorne life interacts with alien ecosystems? If you think introducing a type of vine or flower or a species such as rabbits could devastate a continent, just imagine if the microbes in your stomach (and eventually your feces) kills or consumes everything it touches? Turn it the other way, and imagine an alien bird
    poops on your cornfield, and is consumed by microbes from their guts?

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 23:51:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:21 pm

    [B > Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 01:35 pm


    our own probes and tests say it's legit. sounds legit.

    Other nations sent probes to orbit the moon. why aren't they calling fou

    who did?

    Russia, China, Japan, India and European Space Agency have all sent probes to study the moon, either in orbit or on the surface.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 00:11:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:11 pm

    I love the odd programming you can find on the channels on Roku TVs. One o the sci-fi channels has UFO and Space:1999 on, two shows I loved growing u

    We used to get COMET here which I think had Space:1999 and I know it had
    the 1990's The Outer Limits. Unfortunately, the TV station that was carrying it as a subchannel dropped it in favor of another, non-sci-fi network.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Don't touch me...I'll wound your inner child!" - Beavis

    I got Comet on my Dish. The channel that used to by TechTV/G4/ Esquire/ and other re-toolings showed Space: 1999 before it dropped off the schedule.
    There was another channel that would show blocks of old shows. I nearly
    forgot about a live action series from the 70's called Space Academy. It was
    a Saturday morning show that ran for one season, then was replaced with a
    more action oriented spinoff called Jason of Star Command. Sapce Academy reused the fiberglas body of the Earth 2 truck as the external for their shuttlecraft. In the story, the characters were students on a space station built in an asteroid. They all had some special skills or paranormal abilities, and they could combine their concentration and boost each other's skills. Jonathan Harris (Dr Smithof Lost in Space) played the headmaster of the academy. His character also had an incomplete back story about his
    actual age. In his quarters or office he had items dating back to the 20th century, and the show takes place in the 24th century or something like that.

    Jason of Star Command was more of a swashbuckler action series. They
    recycled sets and sometimes Space Academy (the station, not the cast) would make an appearance. Bad guy was big hairy dude with one good eye and the
    other is covered by an eyepiece that glows red. Each week Jason would thwart the bad guy's plan to control the universe.

    The writers probably didn't think much of it, but one of the alien species
    that was the bad guy of the week were known as the Vegans.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Thursday, July 28, 2022 00:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 06:45 pm

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Probably all true, but changes nothing about the need to find another place to live. We'll have to deal with those types of things. Adapt
    and overcome.

    It's an ethical dilemma I'm sure some would justify panetary
    genocide of alien pant and animal species in the name of
    preserving human life. The alter native for long term habitation
    is genetically altering humans so they can eat otherwise inedible
    or toxic plants.

    Well, honestly, if we went to all the trouble of traveling (however far
    to this new world), wouldn't it be assumed that we'll do what we have to
    in order to survive? The alternative would be to just roll over and
    give up the mission. Pretty standard procedure for an "invading force"
    to try and take over by force if necessary, and let the strongest
    survive. Top of the food chain kind of thing. <SHRUG>



    ... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.

    Agreed, there is no turning back. But lets go one step further and disocover we brought along something that creates massive kill offs of life down to the viral or microbial level, when in turn affects the planet's ability to
    recycle CO2 into oxygen? Entire jungles die off. Animals run out of food. P rairies with wind resilient grass turn into arid desert. Oceans becoime
    devoid of life. Whatever replaces it must grow pretty damn quick, if
    possible. Plants will have to be adapted to grow in the alien soil. in that case, the microbes may be essential for the conversion.

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Thursday, July 28, 2022 07:41:00
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It's an ethical dilemma I'm sure some would justify panetary
    genocide of alien pant and animal species in the name of
    preserving human life. The alter native for long term habitation
    is genetically altering humans so they can eat otherwise inedible
    or toxic plants.

    Well, honestly, if we went to all the trouble of traveling (however far
    to this new world), wouldn't it be assumed that we'll do what we have to
    in order to survive? The alternative would be to just roll over and
    give up the mission. Pretty standard procedure for an "invading force"
    to try and take over by force if necessary, and let the strongest
    survive. Top of the food chain kind of thing. <SHRUG>

    Agreed, there is no turning back. But lets go one step further
    and disocover we brought along something that creates massive
    kill offs of life down to the viral or microbial level, when in
    turn affects the planet's ability to recycle CO2 into oxygen?
    Entire jungles die off. Animals run out of food. P rairies with
    wind resilient grass turn into arid desert. Oceans becoime
    devoid of life. Whatever replaces it must grow pretty damn
    quick, if possible. Plants will have to be adapted to grow in
    the alien soil. in that case, the microbes may be essential for
    the conversion.

    I suppose that could happen. Seems like it would take a little while
    for that scale of destruction - enough time for us to realize what was happening and *TRY* to counter-act it. If it seems we'd be unable to do
    that then you'd have to step back and remember the "big-picture"...
    There are probably millions of inhabitable planets. If this one is a
    failure, then we move on and try another one. It's "survival of the
    fittest" on a galactic scale. When you look at it like that..., how
    important is any one planet? Including our native Earth...



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Thursday, July 28, 2022 10:45:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 2022 07:41 am

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It's an ethical dilemma I'm sure some would justify panetary genocide of alien pant and animal species in the name of
    preserving human life. The alter native for long term habitation
    is genetically altering humans so they can eat otherwise inedible
    or toxic plants.

    Well, honestly, if we went to all the trouble of traveling (however far to this new world), wouldn't it be assumed that we'll do what we have to in order to survive? The alternative would be to just roll over and
    give up the mission. Pretty standard procedure for an "invading force" to try and take over by force if necessary, and let the strongest survive. Top of the food chain kind of thing. <SHRUG>

    Agreed, there is no turning back. But lets go one step further
    and disocover we brought along something that creates massive
    kill offs of life down to the viral or microbial level, when in
    turn affects the planet's ability to recycle CO2 into oxygen?
    Entire jungles die off. Animals run out of food. P rairies with
    wind resilient grass turn into arid desert. Oceans becoime
    devoid of life. Whatever replaces it must grow pretty damn
    quick, if possible. Plants will have to be adapted to grow in
    the alien soil. in that case, the microbes may be essential for
    the conversion.

    I suppose that could happen. Seems like it would take a little while
    for that scale of destruction - enough time for us to realize what was happening and *TRY* to counter-act it. If it seems we'd be unable to do that then you'd have to step back and remember the "big-picture"...
    There are probably millions of inhabitable planets. If this one is a failure, then we move on and try another one. It's "survival of the fittest" on a galactic scale. When you look at it like that..., how important is any one planet? Including our native Earth...



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.

    If travelling to to colonize a planet was as easy as driving to a new town to buy a house, why move somewhere you may have problems with the neighborhood? For some time it may a one shot attempt, and the ship that gets you there will be expended and act as construction materials to build your new colony. If there is no sentient life detectable, it may be ok to kill everything off as part of the terraforming process. I think it will be tragic if a colony disappears because it had no contingency plan for a planet being toxic or so frail it cannot accomodate Earthlings and all the germs they bring with them.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thursday, July 28, 2022 16:50:00
    The writers probably didn't think much of it, but one of the alien species that was the bad guy of the week were known as the Vegans.

    LOL, that is a good one. :) I never saw any of those Space Academy or
    Jason of Star Command episodes. They sound interesting.

    Most of what I watch lately are the original Twilight Zone, original The
    Outer Limits, Night Gallery, One Step Beyond, and Tales of Tomorrow. :)
    Those, and the British dramas that PBS shows on Thursday and Sunday nights.


    * SLMR 2.1a * The number you have dailed...9-1-1...has been changed...

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Thursday, July 28, 2022 23:33:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:50 pm

    The writers probably didn't think much of it, but one of the alien species that was the bad guy of the week were known as the Vegans.

    LOL, that is a good one. :) I never saw any of those Space Academy or Jason of Star Command episodes. They sound interesting.

    Most of what I watch lately are the original Twilight Zone, original The Outer Limits, Night Gallery, One Step Beyond, and Tales of Tomorrow. :) Those, and the British dramas that PBS shows on Thursday and Sunday nights.


    * SLMR 2.1a * The number you have dailed...9-1-1...has been changed...

    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Earth
    II was Ark II. It was a live action show about a team of scientist/
    explorers and their portable lab and motor home. The early jetpack design known as the rocket belt appeared on several episodes. Their prupose was to travel outside the civilized zone into the wasteland and attempt to restore order and rebuild society. Looks like it was filmed around the boneyard
    areas on Paramount Ranch.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Friday, July 29, 2022 20:14:28
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Boraxman on Wed Jul 27 2022 07:46 am

    You're making a big assumption that a new planet we might find would be "new". Why couldn't it also be 4-5 billion years old? I'm sure it
    wouldn't be exactly like Earth, but maybe very similar?

    Well by "new" I obviously mean new to us. If it can support life, it seem probably it would have unicellular life. Biochemistries may be different which could cause issues, potentially major ones.

    One of the biggest mass extiction events on Earth was caused by microorganisms generating Oxygen.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Friday, July 29, 2022 20:17:39
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Wed Jul 27 2022 10:49 am

    I'd think the risk isn't much worse than a group of people moving to a different continent on our planet..?

    Nightfox

    No, but America is falling apart after a few hundred years. Australia was settled a bit over 200 years ago, but climate change may make it far less hospitable in the next 200 years.

    A millenia is a blink of an eye at the timescales we are talking about. Hell, human history is about 6,000 years old and we're in peril, again, when we are talking about continuation for millions of years, that is a fraction of time.

    We went to the moon, and can't now. What if we sent people to Mars, but then lost the ability to go back, and offer support, and the colonists were stranded. Or the terraforming project, which was supposed to take decades, just failed due to political/economic issues.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Gamgee on Friday, July 29, 2022 20:20:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 2022 07:41 am

    I suppose that could happen. Seems like it would take a little while
    for that scale of destruction - enough time for us to realize what was happening and *TRY* to counter-act it. If it seems we'd be unable to do that then you'd have to step back and remember the "big-picture"...
    There are probably millions of inhabitable planets. If this one is a failure, then we move on and try another one. It's "survival of the fittest" on a galactic scale. When you look at it like that..., how important is any one planet? Including our native Earth...

    We wouldn't. We already have a good case study, Anthropogenic Global Warming. We're not fixing it, its too far in the future for us to act.

    The humans that go to other planets will be the same. They won't care about problems that are 100 years ahead. We don't care about that here with billions of peoples welfare at stake.

    We're stuffed.

    ---
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  • From Dux@VERT/PATHUNKN to Boraxman on Friday, July 29, 2022 12:44:57
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Dux on Tue Jul 26 2022 08:55 pm

    The thing is if you leave your house to rot, you don't move to another to escape until you've worked out why your original rotted in the first place.

    You've made an assumption here that logic and thought is being put into this... another potential analogy:

    You live in a big house w/ a lot of family... the ones in charge don't care what's going on, they're fine with it rotting as long as they have their booze and TV... others can see the problem but refuse to be part of the solution... others would be part of the solution but the problem is beyond what they can handle alone--but they can move out.

    I just think it's more likely the booze and TV ones will be buying the rockets to Mars and allow all new terrible problems to occur.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ pathunknown.net
  • From Dux@VERT/PATHUNKN to Moondog on Friday, July 29, 2022 12:57:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:45 am

    For some time it may a one shot attempt, and the ship that gets you there wi be expended and act as construction materials to build your new colony. If there is no sentient life detectable, it may be ok to kill everything off as part of the terraforming process. I think it will be tragic if a colony disappears because it had no contingency plan for a planet being toxic or so frail it cannot accomodate Earthlings and all the germs they bring with them

    Given our current ethics, I can't imagine a trip somewhere that we haven't planned for every contigency -- up to an including "you'll live out the rest of your lives orbiting that star in this ship".

    I would guess that before any human missions go on any one way trips we'll have thoroughly probed the area and planned for the likely situations faced.

    We might at some point change our collective opinion and decide that being the first human to each another star system is worth the risk of finding it a wasteland and having insufficient supplies to return... those Apollo folks seemed to be pretty darn close to that level of risk, but even they had a reasonable return plan.

    I think our collected opinion of tragic has, and will, continue to change over the decades. Things that would tragic here on Earth 50-60 years ago barely register as newsworthy. We may find that in 150 years it's not considered unbearbly tragic for a group to die trying to pioneer new places in space, just as folks lost in the 1700s-1800s to treks across the united states trying to find new homesteads (and they often had established destinations!)

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Friday, July 29, 2022 13:50:29
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:33 pm


    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Earth II was Ark II. It was a live action show about a team of scientist/ explorers and their portable lab and motor home. The early jetpack design known as the rocket belt appeared on several episodes. Their prupose was to

    can you please tell me what season and episode that is?
    i have rbt but can't find it by that name.
    https://pastebin.com/7uj6Dqp7
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Friday, July 29, 2022 13:51:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Fri Jul 29 2022 08:17 pm

    We went to the moon

    LIES

    We went to the moon, and can't now. What if we sent people to Mars, but then lost the ability to go back, and offer support, and the colonists were stranded. Or the terraforming project, which was supposed to take decades, just failed due to political/economic issues.


    i thought they tried that and stuff wouldn't grow normally.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 17:14:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    We went to the moon

    LIES

    Moron



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Friday, July 29, 2022 15:00:00
    Most of what I watch lately are the original Twilight Zone, original The Outer Limits, Night Gallery, One Step Beyond, and Tales of Tomorrow. :) Those, and the British dramas that PBS shows on Thursday and Sunday nights.

    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Earth

    I am not sure if I have a station here that shows that one now. I am
    watching the non-PBS shows above on DVD, except Tales of Tomorrow, which can
    be found on youtube.

    If I can find it I will give it a watch!


    * SLMR 2.1a * IBM = Institute of Black Magic

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dux on Saturday, July 30, 2022 09:54:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dux to Boraxman on Fri Jul 29 2022 12:44 pm


    You've made an assumption here that logic and thought is being put into this...
    another potential analogy:

    You live in a big house w/ a lot of family... the ones in charge don't care what's going on, they're fine with it rotting as long as they have their booze
    and TV... others can see the problem but refuse to be part of the solution...
    others would be part of the solution but the problem is beyond what they can handle alone--but they can move out.

    I just think it's more likely the booze and TV ones will be buying the rockets to
    Mars and allow all new terrible problems to occur.

    I think so too. Now that Billionaires are running these projects, they WILL stuff it up and create Dystopia's. A future built by Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos? It would make exctinction seem the better option for humanity.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dux on Friday, July 29, 2022 22:44:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dux to Moondog on Fri Jul 29 2022 12:57 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:45 am

    For some time it may a one shot attempt, and the ship that gets you there be expended and act as construction materials to build your new colony. there is no sentient life detectable, it may be ok to kill everything off part of the terraforming process. I think it will be tragic if a colony disappears because it had no contingency plan for a planet being toxic or frail it cannot accomodate Earthlings and all the germs they bring with t

    Given our current ethics, I can't imagine a trip somewhere that we haven't planned for every contigency -- up to an including "you'll live out the rest your lives orbiting that star in this ship".

    I would guess that before any human missions go on any one way trips we'll h thoroughly probed the area and planned for the likely situations faced.

    We might at some point change our collective opinion and decide that being t first human to each another star system is worth the risk of finding it a wasteland and having insufficient supplies to return... those Apollo folks seemed to be pretty darn close to that level of risk, but even they had a reasonable return plan.

    I think our collected opinion of tragic has, and will, continue to change ov the decades. Things that would tragic here on Earth 50-60 years ago barely register as newsworthy. We may find that in 150 years it's not considered unbearbly tragic for a group to die trying to pioneer new places in space, j as folks lost in the 1700s-1800s to treks across the united states trying to find new homesteads (and they often had established destinations!)

    Probes can tell you only so much, and even then there may be signs we don't recognize, like 100 year flood plains, or gravitational changes that create seisimic events every couple of decades. How long do you expect a planet to
    be observed when it is looking like a sweet deal? It's like buying a house as
    part of a property auction, and you have a narrow window of time to check it out before the auction.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 22:47:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Fri Jul 29 2022 01:50 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:33 pm


    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Ea II was Ark II. It was a live action show about a team of scientist/ explorers and their portable lab and motor home. The early jetpack desig known as the rocket belt appeared on several episodes. Their prupose was

    can you please tell me what season and episode that is?
    i have rbt but can't find it by that name.
    https://pastebin.com/7uj6Dqp7

    Ark II was a separate series in the mid 1970's. Ray Bradbury Theatre was in t he 1990's. IIRC the same production company in Vancouver that remade Outer Limits, then eventually Stargate SG-1.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, July 29, 2022 22:53:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Jul 29 2022 01:51 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Fri Jul 29 2022 08:17 pm

    We went to the moon

    LIES

    We went to the moon, and can't now. What if we sent people to Mars, but then lost the ability to go back, and offer support, and the colonists we stranded. Or the terraforming project, which was supposed to take decade just failed due to political/economic issues.


    i thought they tried that and stuff wouldn't grow normally.

    Hydroponics work in space. If terraforming fails, then people must live in pressurized structures. Hydroponics do not require dirt. Before any colony
    is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water you sustain life, create oxygen, rocket fuel, and fuel for hydrogen cells to produce electricity.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Friday, July 29, 2022 23:11:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Fri Jul 29 2022 03:00 pm

    Most of what I watch lately are the original Twilight Zone, original Th Outer Limits, Night Gallery, One Step Beyond, and Tales of Tomorrow. : Those, and the British dramas that PBS shows on Thursday and Sunday nig

    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Ear

    I am not sure if I have a station here that shows that one now. I am watching the non-PBS shows above on DVD, except Tales of Tomorrow, which can be found on youtube.

    If I can find it I will give it a watch!


    * SLMR 2.1a * IBM = Institute of Black Magic

    Ray Bradbury Theatre was a show like Outer Limits or Twilight Zone, with different stories each week. One story involved the 50th anniversary of the launch of a time ship which travels into the future, then returns. since the flight, major advances in technology and society happen which lead to a model sosciety. Everyone is excited, hacving parties up tto he pint of the appearani ce of the time ship, because the pilot sees this ideal society, and tells everyone things are going to be alright. The time pilot is in his 80's or
    90's and agrees on one interview. During the interview he explains the technology looked good on paper, but didn't work in reality. The ship disappears, but didn't go to through time. He made up everything to justify the costs of the experiment, and to give people the faith to belive they can improve. By this time, holograms are so convincing, people will be seeing a h ologram instead a of the time ship. He explains to folk the ship in it's temporal flux cannot be talked to or even show up on sensors, which also
    covers up it is a fake. When the reporter asks why he tells him all this,
    then decides to go on with the hoax, technicians bring out a box, which is a cryogenic container. As part of the interview contract, he cannot speak of
    any of this for another 50 years.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Saturday, July 30, 2022 21:49:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm

    Hydroponics work in space. If terraforming fails, then people must live in pressurized structures. Hydroponics do not require dirt. Before any colony is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water you sustain life, create oxygen, rocket fuel, and fuel for hydrogen cells to produce electricity.


    I would expect that people would trial this on Earth first. Making a sustainable community in the middle of the Sahara desert which is cut off completely from the rest of the world.

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    ---
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  • From Phigan@VERT/TACOPRON to Moondog on Saturday, July 30, 2022 10:17:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm

    is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water you

    Recycled urine, of course!

    ---
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  • From Phigan@VERT/TACOPRON to Boraxman on Saturday, July 30, 2022 10:20:40
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 09:49 pm

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    I think you mean BioSphere II. BioDome was a comedy movie.

    In some ways BioSphere II was successful giving us a glimpse of things required to have such a colony. In most other ways, though, it was a failure, showing us we are nowhere near ready to launch such an endeavor.

    At least that's what I got out of it :D

    ---
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  • From Dux@VERT/PATHUNKN to Moondog on Saturday, July 30, 2022 15:25:43
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dux on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:44 pm

    Probes can tell you only so much, and even then there may be signs we don't recognize, like 100 year flood plains, or gravitational changes

    Totally agree, I think the initial pioneers colonizing space will end up doing far worse than the average pioneer settling parts of the US/Canada.

    It's more likely the majority will fail unless the plan includes a return trip... but without the ability to have significantly FTL movement even a return trip will be costly for those adventurers.


    What would also be an interesting twist of sort is if there is ultimately a parallel to the original colonization efforts that happened -- arrival at a place there there is already intelligent life. It might even be welcoming life that will help us. I just hope that humanity doesn't repeat the same atrocities the Europeans did.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, July 30, 2022 14:25:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 09:49 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm

    Hydroponics work in space. If terraforming fails, then people must live pressurized structures. Hydroponics do not require dirt. Before any col is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water y sustain life, create oxygen, rocket fuel, and fuel for hydrogen cells to produce electricity.


    I would expect that people would trial this on Earth first. Making a sustai

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    That was an interesting experiment and many dosciveries were made, such as trying to create discrete arid zones and tropical zones in such a small place. Whatever was dry, didn't stay dry, and insects did not stay where they were supposed to be. In a pressurized colony, you would have to be religious in wiping down equipment to keep mold and mildew and other decay causing
    elements from taking root, so to speak.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Phigan on Saturday, July 30, 2022 20:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Phigan to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 10:17 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm

    is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water y

    Recycled urine, of course!

    lol. Recycling can get you only so far. To make rocket fuel or break down into hydrogren for a hydrogen fuel cell, you'll need way more than the crew
    can process. I'm not sure if all moisture could be extracted and replenished without diminishing returns. It is not a lossless system.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, July 31, 2022 04:05:44
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:47 pm

    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook for Ea II was Ark II. It was a live action show about a team of scientist/ explorers and their portable lab and motor home. The early jetpack desig known as the rocket belt appeared on several episodes. Their prupose was

    can you please tell me what season and episode that is?
    i have rbt but can't find it by that name.
    https://pastebin.com/7uj6Dqp7

    Ark II was a separate series in the mid 1970's. Ray Bradbury Theatre was in t he 1990's. IIRC the same production company in Vancouver that remade Outer Limits, then eventually Stargate SG-1.


    oh, you said
    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list.

    after looking it up on wikipedia i think i remember seeing an episode or 2.
    it was a crummy show.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, July 31, 2022 04:07:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm



    i thought they tried that and stuff wouldn't grow normally.

    Hydroponics work in space. If terraforming fails, then people must live in pressurized structures. Hydroponics do not require dirt. Before any colony is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water you sustain life, create oxygen, rocket fuel, and fuel for hydrogen cells to produce electricity.

    no i mean i read or heard somewhere they tried growing plantlife in space and maybe on mars and it did not work out.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Sunday, July 31, 2022 04:13:17
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 09:49 pm

    I would expect that people would trial this on Earth first. Making a sustainable community in the middle of the Sahara desert which is cut off completely from the rest of the world.

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    i totally forgot about biodome/biosphere
    i guess it all fell apart, but they still learned a few things.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Phigan on Sunday, July 31, 2022 04:15:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Phigan to Boraxman on Sat Jul 30 2022 10:20 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 09:49 pm

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    I think you mean BioSphere II. BioDome was a comedy movie.

    yeah but the word biodome was thrown around a lot, you can't find it online
    but i saw it a lot in news reports.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, July 31, 2022 04:16:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Jul 30 2022 02:25 pm

    That was an interesting experiment and many dosciveries were made, such as trying to create discrete arid zones and tropical zones in such a small place. Whatever was dry, didn't stay dry, and insects did not stay where they were supposed to be. In a pressurized colony, you would have to be religious in wiping down equipment to keep mold and mildew and other decay causing
    elements from taking root, so to speak.


    i think their biggest problem was oxygen loss.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Phigan on Sunday, July 31, 2022 20:36:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Phigan to Boraxman on Sat Jul 30 2022 10:20 am

    I think you mean BioSphere II. BioDome was a comedy movie.

    In some ways BioSphere II was successful giving us a glimpse of things required to have such a colony. In most other ways, though, it was a failure, showing us we are nowhere near ready to launch such an endeavor.

    At least that's what I got out of it :D


    I wrote that on little sleep. You're right, I feel a bit dumb. BioDome was that crappy Pauly Shore movie.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dux on Sunday, July 31, 2022 09:47:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dux to Moondog on Fri Jul 29 2022 12:57 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:45 am

    For some time it may a one shot attempt, and the ship that gets you there be expended and act as construction materials to build your new colony. there is no sentient life detectable, it may be ok to kill everything off part of the terraforming process. I think it will be tragic if a colony disappears because it had no contingency plan for a planet being toxic or frail it cannot accomodate Earthlings and all the germs they bring with t

    Given our current ethics, I can't imagine a trip somewhere that we haven't planned for every contigency -- up to an including "you'll live out the rest your lives orbiting that star in this ship".

    I would guess that before any human missions go on any one way trips we'll h thoroughly probed the area and planned for the likely situations faced.

    We might at some point change our collective opinion and decide that being t first human to each another star system is worth the risk of finding it a wasteland and having insufficient supplies to return... those Apollo folks seemed to be pretty darn close to that level of risk, but even they had a reasonable return plan.

    I think our collected opinion of tragic has, and will, continue to change ov the decades. Things that would tragic here on Earth 50-60 years ago barely register as newsworthy. We may find that in 150 years it's not considered unbearbly tragic for a group to die trying to pioneer new places in space, j as folks lost in the 1700s-1800s to treks across the united states trying to find new homesteads (and they often had established destinations!)


    Go back 500 years ago to the Columbus expedition, they knew the Earth was a sphere, but they didn't know how round it was nor if anything existed in between. They were looking for an alternate path to India and Asia. If the americas didn't exist, I doubt they would've had enough supplies to make it
    to China, or the crew would've mutiny'd at some point during the trip.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, July 31, 2022 18:45:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jul 31 2022 04:05 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:47 pm

    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list. the series I mistook Ea II was Ark II. It was a live action show about a team of scientist/ explorers and their portable lab and motor home. The ea jetpack desig known as the rocket belt appeared on several episodes Their prupose was

    can you please tell me what season and episode that is?
    i have rbt but can't find it by that name. https://pastebin.com/7uj6Dqp7

    Ark II was a separate series in the mid 1970's. Ray Bradbury Theatre was t he 1990's. IIRC the same production company in Vancouver that remade Outer Limits, then eventually Stargate SG-1.


    oh, you said
    Add Ray Bradbury Theatre to your watch list.

    after looking it up on wikipedia i think i remember seeing an episode or 2. it was a crummy show.

    Low budget Vancouver production for the USA network back in the 90's. Crummy by todays standards. Today I watched an episode that starts on Mars. The peo ple of Mars live underground due to a disaster affecting the planet's
    surface, and they are running low on resources. The military wants to invade
    Earth, but one of their generals opposes any attempts of invasion. Later on it is revealed his great grandfather was part of a scouting mission, and brought back several books to be studied. This general grew up reading pulp comic books from the 30's and 40's, and assumed they were training materials f or young men to grow up and be alien fighters. He tells his son of these
    great Earth warriors, they usually have names like Flash, Buck, or Rick, and they are very large and muscular with square jaws. If a soldier sees one of these types, kill them on sight.

    The speahead invasion ship full of generals lands in the middle of a small town. Instead of met with opposition, the town is having a carnival in their honor. They learn the town mistakes their landing ships aspart of the promotion for an invasion film being filmed in their town. The high
    commander tells everyone to stand down, but the one general is still
    paranoid. Over time, soldiers are getting drunk in bars, getting lured into
    a casino, and riding around in cars with the locals. He tells the high commander not to drop his guard, then the commander gets hit by a big car.
    The driver turns out to be the owner of the film company, and asks the
    general if he now has the ability to bargain so they can use the troops and ships as props. When the general agrees to sign the contract, he asks the producer what his name is. he says it is Richard, but he everyone calls him Rick.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, July 31, 2022 18:48:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jul 31 2022 04:07 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 10:53 pm



    i thought they tried that and stuff wouldn't grow normally.

    Hydroponics work in space. If terraforming fails, then people must live pressurized structures. Hydroponics do not require dirt. Before any col is created, a source of water would have to be discovered. From water y sustain life, create oxygen, rocket fuel, and fuel for hydrogen cells to produce electricity.

    no i mean i read or heard somewhere they tried growing plantlife in space an

    Nothing has been tested on Mars, but plants have been grown in the ISS, Mir, a nd Skylab stations.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, July 31, 2022 19:00:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sun Jul 31 2022 04:13 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 09:49 pm

    I would expect that people would trial this on Earth first. Making a sustainable community in the middle of the Sahara desert which is cut off completely from the rest of the world.

    All this is quite theortical. The closest we've come was the BioDome.

    i totally forgot about biodome/biosphere
    i guess it all fell apart, but they still learned a few things.

    They made the entire year in the dome, but admitted at one point they cheated and had broken the seal to bring more oxygen in. Earth's atmosphere is 21% oxygen, and theirs dropped to 14.2. The sphere couldnt process enough co2 into
    oxygen. People became lethargic, had trouble concentrating, and would stop
    in mid sentence to catch their breath. The crew also had morale issues
    because they had an over abundance of beets and sweet potatoes. They were running out of ways to make these taste appetizing over long periods of time. The crew felt like zoo animals from all the tourists tapping on the glass to t ake pictures of them.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, July 31, 2022 19:01:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jul 31 2022 04:16 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Jul 30 2022 02:25 pm

    That was an interesting experiment and many dosciveries were made, such a trying to create discrete arid zones and tropical zones in such a small place. Whatever was dry, didn't stay dry, and insects did not stay where they were supposed to be. In a pressurized colony, you would have to be religious in wiping down equipment to keep mold and mildew and other deca causing
    elements from taking root, so to speak.


    i think their biggest problem was oxygen loss.

    yes, that was major.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, August 01, 2022 09:09:22
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jul 31 2022 06:48 pm

    no i mean i read or heard somewhere they tried growing plantlife in space an

    Nothing has been tested on Mars, but plants have been grown in the ISS, Mir, a nd Skylab stations.

    yeah, but they don't grow well.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, August 01, 2022 09:10:22
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jul 31 2022 07:00 pm

    They made the entire year in the dome, but admitted at one point they cheated and had broken the seal to bring more oxygen in. Earth's atmosphere is 21% oxygen, and theirs dropped to 14.2. The sphere couldnt process enough co2 into oxygen. People became lethargic, had trouble concentrating, and would stop
    in mid sentence to catch their breath. The crew also had morale issues because they had an over abundance of beets and sweet potatoes. They were running out of ways to make these taste appetizing over long periods of time. The crew felt like zoo animals from all the tourists tapping on the glass to t ake pictures of them.

    they had more problems than that. the concrete was absorbing gasses and also many animals died.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Monday, August 01, 2022 10:23:00
    MRO wrote to Moondog <=-

    no i mean i read or heard somewhere they tried growing plantlife in space an

    Nothing has been tested on Mars, but plants have been grown in the ISS, Mir, a nd Skylab stations.

    yeah, but they don't grow well.

    You're wrong, as usual, as a quick/easy Google search will show.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Moondog on Monday, August 01, 2022 08:35:00
    Hello Moondog!

    ** On Sunday 31.07.22 - 19:00, Moondog wrote to MRO:

    i totally forgot about biodome/biosphere i guess it all
    fell apart, but they still learned a few things.

    [...] Earth's atmosphere is 21% oxygen, and theirs dropped to 14.2.
    [...] People became lethargic, had trouble concentrating,..
    [...] crew also had morale issues ..
    [...] The crew felt like zoo animals from all the tourists
    tapping on the glass to t ake pictures of them.

    Any real human trip to Mars will most certainly be a suicide
    mission.

    Re: the latter element, allowing people to access the location
    and take pictures.. seemed in contrevention to emulate
    isolation from outside contact.

    The basic elements for sustaining life (oxygene, food, shelter)
    on another planet are NOT likely to be met at all. So, why
    bother?

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, August 01, 2022 17:00:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Aug 01 2022 09:09 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jul 31 2022 06:48 pm

    no i mean i read or heard somewhere they tried growing plantlife in sp an

    Nothing has been tested on Mars, but plants have been grown in the ISS, M a nd Skylab stations.

    yeah, but they don't grow well.

    Without knowing the objectives the growing tests were conducted for, one
    cannot say whether they were success or failure. The tests I've heard of
    were ones where they tested their growth in micro gravity, however these were short term tests that lasted a few weeks or months, then returned on the
    space shuttle.

    ---
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  • From Belly@VERT/BRAZINET to Moondog on Tuesday, August 02, 2022 18:54:57
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 12:11 am

    Jason of Star Command was more of a swashbuckler action series. They recycled sets and sometimes Space Academy (the station, not the cast) would make an appearance. Bad guy was big hairy dude with one good eye and the other is covered by an eyepiece that glows red. Each week Jason would thwar the bad guy's plan to control the universe.

    Don't forget about James Doohan as the commander! Not his finest hour, I'm sure :)

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Ogg on Tuesday, August 02, 2022 19:48:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to Moondog on Mon Aug 01 2022 08:35 am

    Hello Moondog!

    ** On Sunday 31.07.22 - 19:00, Moondog wrote to MRO:

    i totally forgot about biodome/biosphere i guess it all
    fell apart, but they still learned a few things.

    [...] Earth's atmosphere is 21% oxygen, and theirs dropped to 14.2. [...] People became lethargic, had trouble concentrating,..
    [...] crew also had morale issues ..
    [...] The crew felt like zoo animals from all the tourists
    tapping on the glass to t ake pictures of them.

    Any real human trip to Mars will most certainly be a suicide
    mission.

    Re: the latter element, allowing people to access the location
    and take pictures.. seemed in contrevention to emulate
    isolation from outside contact.

    The basic elements for sustaining life (oxygene, food, shelter)
    on another planet are NOT likely to be met at all. So, why
    bother?


    I think the objective was to build a sustainable environnment we can bring along
    with us rather than adapt one.

    The concept of terraforming is to take an environent incapable of sustaining life, then re-engineer it so it could sustain life. This may take centuries even if we have all the ingredients. In scifi, terraforming is usually portrayed as being done on arid, lifeless rocks. In the 2014 series
    Defiance, Earth was devasted by probes designed to alter the planet for refugees escaping a dying star system.

    I was watching a PBS series where they reviewed different planets, and Venus could have been a sister planet to Earth if it had an organic moderator to regulate co2 and other chemical buildups in their thicker atmosphere. Even though they are in a position where the temperature should be 100 dgrees warmer, their thicker atmosphere could've kept the planet cooler instead of ma. king it a pressure cooker.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Belly on Wednesday, August 03, 2022 10:16:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Belly to Moondog on Tue Aug 02 2022 06:54 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 12:11 am

    Jason of Star Command was more of a swashbuckler action series. They recycled sets and sometimes Space Academy (the station, not the cast) wou make an appearance. Bad guy was big hairy dude with one good eye and the other is covered by an eyepiece that glows red. Each week Jason would th the bad guy's plan to control the universe.

    Don't forget about James Doohan as the commander! Not his finest hour, I'm s :)

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

    I did forget! Afew years earlier Doohan and thmost of the TOS cast worked on the Star Trek animated series. Some of the dialog sounds flat, and the
    reason I heard why was because the studio would mail scripts to the actors, th en they would record their lines on a tape and send it back to the studio. Doohan and Nichols had additional work doing voice acting for additional characters.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Friday, August 05, 2022 08:25:10
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Tue Aug 02 2022 07:48 pm


    I think the objective was to build a sustainable environnment we can bring along
    with us rather than adapt one.

    The concept of terraforming is to take an environent incapable of sustaining life, then re-engineer it so it could sustain life. This may take centuries even if we have all the ingredients. In scifi, terraforming is usually portrayed as being done on arid, lifeless rocks. In the 2014 series Defiance, Earth was devasted by probes designed to alter the planet for refugees escaping a dying star system.

    I was watching a PBS series where they reviewed different planets, and Venus could have been a sister planet to Earth if it had an organic moderator to regulate co2 and other chemical buildups in their thicker atmosphere. Even though they are in a position where the temperature should be 100 dgrees warmer, their thicker atmosphere could've kept the planet cooler instead of ma. king it a pressure cooker.


    A private for-profit company is going to embark on a project which takes centuries?

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don't burst out in riotous laughter. Companies want profit NOW. Who is going to invest in something that won't generate a return in their lifetime, let alone a century?
    The company will have to remain solvent, and not decide to refocus.
    I'm sick and tired of techno-utopians who talk out of their ass, and Elon is one of those. We can't even house people here in affordable housing, nor commit to any long term goals to save our own asses from climate change. The markets wants returns it can bank on.

    Building companies here in Australia are all folding because of the speculative boom coming to an end.

    Keep dreaming though...

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Friday, August 05, 2022 01:13:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Fri Aug 05 2022 08:25 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Ogg on Tue Aug 02 2022 07:48 pm


    I think the objective was to build a sustainable environnment we can brin along
    with us rather than adapt one.

    The concept of terraforming is to take an environent incapable of sustain life, then re-engineer it so it could sustain life. This may take centur even if we have all the ingredients. In scifi, terraforming is usually portrayed as being done on arid, lifeless rocks. In the 2014 series Defiance, Earth was devasted by probes designed to alter the planet for refugees escaping a dying star system.

    I was watching a PBS series where they reviewed different planets, and Venus could have been a sister planet to Earth if it had an organic moderator to regulate co2 and other chemical buildups in their thicker atmosphere. Even though they are in a position where the temperature sho be 100 dgrees warmer, their thicker atmosphere could've kept the planet cooler instead of ma. king it a pressure cooker.


    A private for-profit company is going to embark on a project which takes cen

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don't burst The company will have to remain solvent, and not decide to refocus.
    I'm sick and tired of techno-utopians who talk out of their ass, and Elon i
    can bank on.

    Building companies here in Australia are all folding because of the speculat

    Keep dreaming though...

    A friend of mine moved to the US from Zimbabwe. He and his wife sold off everything they had except for clothes and a few personal items. In an interplanetary venture, where's the money? It's in people trading their fortunes and possessions in turn for a trip to another world. It's in the price per pound it costs to transport heavy equipment and materials into
    orbit to place on a colony ship. In space and on the moon, the money is in mining materials to smelted in foundries and forged into a medium that
    orbital and moon based factories can craft into ships and shipyards. It's
    not much different than the ship yards that made ocean going ships, and the ou tfitter services that guided pioneers to new lands.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Thursday, August 04, 2022 07:30:00
    Moondog wrote to Belly <=-

    I did forget! Afew years earlier Doohan and thmost of the TOS cast
    worked on the Star Trek animated series. Some of the dialog sounds
    flat, and the reason I heard why was because the studio would mail
    scripts to the actors, th en they would record their lines on a tape
    and send it back to the studio. Doohan and Nichols had additional work doing voice acting for additional characters.


    Apparently, Leonard Nimoy threatened to walk if they didn't bring in some of the minor talents to share the voice stage. Majel Barrett would have ended
    up doing Uhura and Doohan would have had to do Sulu. A class act, he was.




    ... Onward, to meatspace!
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Friday, August 05, 2022 07:28:00
    Boraxman wrote to Moondog <=-

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don't burst out in riotous laughter. Companies want profit NOW.

    I think terraforming is on the next scale of human civilization. We'll need
    to be one people and focused on survival of the species to make it happen.


    ... Good {$Greeting_Time}, $User!
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, August 06, 2022 13:14:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Aug 05 2022 07:28 am

    Boraxman wrote to Moondog <=-

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don't burst out in riotous laughter. Companies want profit NOW.

    I think terraforming is on the next scale of human civilization. We'll need to be one people and focused on survival of the species to make it happen.


    ... Good {$Greeting_Time}, $User!

    Part of terraforming may require altering what we consider "human." There
    was a short-lived BBC series, I think it was called Outcasts, and it was
    about a colony on a very Earthlike world. Among the colonists were a group known as "pioneers" who came early on and were genetically altered so they could live off the land, while the other residents in "the fence" required greenhouses and livestock in pens and cages fed withstrains of grains from Earth. When the series begins, we learn the colony has been there for about ten years, and pioneers pretty much live off the reservation, and the impression is they're no longer welcome in the fence. Eventually we learn there was a plague that killed off several hundred inhabitants, and the pioneers were immune. The populace is told the disease was a side effect of
    the pioneers modification. The colony administrator seems to know much more than he leads others to believe, and there's alot that goes in the back
    alleys and under the table.

    The story progresses at a slow burn, but does progress in that we learn as
    time goes by, however it was cancelled before the 13 or so partial season episodes were aired. it aired in the mid 2000's so there were ere several
    oter slow burn mystery shows it had to compete with.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, August 07, 2022 11:12:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Aug 05 2022 07:28 am

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don't burst out in riotous laughter. Companies want profit NOW.

    I think terraforming is on the next scale of human civilization. We'll need to be one people and focused on survival of the species to make it happen.

    Dude, we haven't changed! We're still focused on profit, ego, acquisition, short term gains. Sure, we may actually develop technologies that may make it possible, but the political/sociological/economic realities won't make it happen.

    Technophiles (like Musk) always overlook this. We have the means to house everyone. WE have the means to feed everyone. The problem isn't that we don't know how to build houses, the problem is that our social functioning creates the deficiencies.

    So it is with terraforming. I cannot see how it is possible for us HUMANS to actually fund and support that project. It doesn't reconcile with what I observe here.

    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the cash and take a risk? And if they do go ahead, how are they going to recoup their costs? From colonists who'll be earning nothing? Or they'll be mining and forever in debt, debt peons in space?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, August 06, 2022 21:10:38
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 07 2022 11:12 am


    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the cash and take a risk? And if they do go ahead, how are they going to recoup their costs? From colonists who'll be earning nothing? Or they'll be mining and forever in debt, debt peons in space?


    we can't cure any diseases. we can't end war. we can't end world hunger.
    No way can we change ourselves or another planet. we are too stupid.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Sunday, August 07, 2022 07:53:00
    Moondog wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Part of terraforming may require altering what we consider "human."
    There was a short-lived BBC series, I think it was called Outcasts, and
    it was about a colony on a very Earthlike world. Among the colonists
    were a group known as "pioneers" who came early on and were genetically altered so they could live off the land, while the other residents in
    "the fence" required greenhouses and livestock in pens and cages fed withstrains of grains from Earth.

    I watched that show - took a while to get going, but I liked it.

    Netflix had a movie where Earth had a limited amount of time left before it would be uninhabitable, and they were trying to genetically modify people
    to be able to live on Titan unassisted. If memory serves, the program ended poorly and they realized that by changing humanity, they lost what it meant
    to be human.


    ... DON'T EAT CABBAGE
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, August 07, 2022 13:29:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Aug 06 2022 09:10 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 07 2022 11:12 am


    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the cash take a risk? And if they do go ahead, how are they going to recoup their costs? From colonists who'll be earning nothing? Or they'll be mining a forever in debt, debt peons in space?


    we can't cure any diseases. we can't end war. we can't end world hunger.
    No way can we change ourselves or another planet. we are too stupid.

    Civilization works because those who follow and agree to rules outnumber those
    who don't. Even in beehives and ant colonies there are mutants and workers that fly off to dead ends or cannot follow instruction, however the damage
    they do is minimal compared to their progress. For 75 years we've lived so
    far despite several nations having enough nukes to destroy the world several times over. We've made it so far. I doubt we'll ever unify as one species, but we are far from anarchy.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Sunday, August 07, 2022 13:55:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 07 2022 11:12 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Aug 05 2022 07:28 am

    When people talk of terraforming, I wonder how it is that others don burst out in riotous laughter. Companies want profit NOW.

    I think terraforming is on the next scale of human civilization. We'll ne to be one people and focused on survival of the species to make it happen

    Dude, we haven't changed! We're still focused on profit, ego, acquisition,

    Technophiles (like Musk) always overlook this. We have the means to house e

    So it is with terraforming. I cannot see how it is possible for us HUMANS t

    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the cash and
    in space?

    Since companies are not bound to treaties that nations make regarding colonization and claiming other worlds as territory, whoever establishes a colony and gets industry going is going to live like a king in that sphere of influence. Think of the overseas mining industry and the company store
    concept from the late 19th century and early 20th century. The only way to knock down these fiefdoms was to make the islands into US controlled territories. I doubt any nation would spend the money to manage or regulate
    a corporate colony. This might result in corporate controlled worlds. The
    map may not say it, but when you land you are breathing corporate air.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, August 07, 2022 20:35:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sun Aug 07 2022 07:53 am

    Moondog wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Part of terraforming may require altering what we consider "human." There was a short-lived BBC series, I think it was called Outcasts, and it was about a colony on a very Earthlike world. Among the colonists were a group known as "pioneers" who came early on and were genetically altered so they could live off the land, while the other residents in "the fence" required greenhouses and livestock in pens and cages fed withstrains of grains from Earth.

    I watched that show - took a while to get going, but I liked it.

    Netflix had a movie where Earth had a limited amount of time left before it would be uninhabitable, and they were trying to genetically modify people
    to be able to live on Titan unassisted. If memory serves, the program ended poorly and they realized that by changing humanity, they lost what it meant to be human.


    ... DON'T EAT CABBAGE

    Funny how that is a recurring theme in in some lines of scifi. I hadn't
    read it, but recall being told of a story where alines are coming to Earth to visit, and ahead of time they send us a message to inform us they will arrive in ten of our years. Like anyone who has a messy house, the residents of
    Earth begin cleaning up the place, hoping the visitors will not think they
    are not worthy of being part of a larger federation. Also during this time, they do what they can to end wars and starvation, and make progress in trying to make a better world for everyone.

    When the aliens arrive, they are somewhat disappointed. For years they've wat ched our TV and listend to radio signals that escaped the Earth, and were hoping for a challenging planet to help. They prided themselves in their charity to lesser species told us if all it takes for us to clean up our act
    is to impress another species, they no longer have a reason to give us all
    the gifts, medicine, technology and advice they had to offer.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Monday, August 08, 2022 20:43:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sun Aug 07 2022 01:55 pm

    Dude, we haven't changed! We're still focused on profit, ego, acquisition,

    Technophiles (like Musk) always overlook this. We have the means to house e

    So it is with terraforming. I cannot see how it is possible for us HUMANS t

    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the cash and
    in space?

    Since companies are not bound to treaties that nations make regarding colonization and claiming other worlds as territory, whoever establishes a colony and gets industry going is going to live like a king in that sphere of influence. Think of the overseas mining industry and the company store concept from the late 19th century and early 20th century. The only way to knock down these fiefdoms was to make the islands into US controlled territories. I doubt any nation would spend the money to manage or regulate a corporate colony. This might result in corporate controlled worlds. The map may not say it, but when you land you are breathing corporate air.


    I don't believe they would be allowed to claim planets and asteroid as their own, and I hope they don't.

    If the future of space colonisation is that companies will essentially become interplantery dicatatorships, lording it over thier colonists, then I would prefer we stayed on Earth and prevented this dystopian future from developing. But I don't think it is economically viable, you will have exploit labour awfully to get away with it, and a lot of people will not volunteer when they realise what they are giving up to go into space.

    For the moment, space will be for tourists like Bezos. Lets hope next time he goes up, he doesn't come back down.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Monday, August 08, 2022 08:07:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Since companies are not bound to treaties that nations make regarding colonization and claiming other worlds as territory, whoever
    establishes a colony and gets industry going is going to live like a
    king in that sphere of influence.

    That reminds me of a bit from Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series.
    Corporations because multi-national when they crossed international borders, then became "transnational". One of the megacorps ended up "buying" a
    pacific rim island, which caused some legal conundrums.



    ... Fear is the mind killer. - Paul Muad'Ib
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 13:44:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Aug 08 2022 08:43 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sun Aug 07 2022 01:55 pm

    Dude, we haven't changed! We're still focused on profit, ego, acquisition,

    Technophiles (like Musk) always overlook this. We have the means to house e

    So it is with terraforming. I cannot see how it is possible for us HUMANS t

    Which company is going to pay for it? Who is going to stump up the ca and
    in space?

    Since companies are not bound to treaties that nations make regarding colonization and claiming other worlds as territory, whoever establishes colony and gets industry going is going to live like a king in that spher of influence. Think of the overseas mining industry and the company stor concept from the late 19th century and early 20th century. The only way knock down these fiefdoms was to make the islands into US controlled territories. I doubt any nation would spend the money to manage or regul a corporate colony. This might result in corporate controlled worlds. T map may not say it, but when you land you are breathing corporate air.


    I don't believe they would be allowed to claim planets and asteroid as their

    If the future of space colonisation is that companies will essentially becom
    is economically viable, you will have exploit labour awfully to get away wi

    For the moment, space will be for tourists like Bezos. Lets hope next time


    Unless there's a board or shareholders, a company is a dictatorship. There
    are such things as benevolent dictators who provide a level of comfort and opportunity to make profits to their people. I agree being a complete despot will not bring in the talented people needed to maintain and improve a
    colony. As a colony grows it may appear to be less of a dictatorship,
    however in the end there will be someone who is either active or silent in
    the colony's affairs that is getting their piece of the action.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 17:12:33
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Fri Aug 05 2022 08:25 am

    A private for-profit company is going to embark on a project which takes cen

    Wine production, and by that I mean _good_ wine production (not what most English speakers consider wine these days) is pretty much just that.

    In Spain we have this saying that one sets a winery so his descendants make a profit from it. Vines take quite a long time to get mature enough to produce top tier grapes. Before that point they kind of suck. If I plant vines today, I will be dead before they start producing their A grapes.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 20:06:00
    In Spain we have this saying that one sets a winery so his descendants make a profit from it. Vines take quite a long time to get mature enough to produce top tier grapes. Before that point they kind of suck. If I plant vines today, I will be dead before they start producing their A grapes.

    In California we say "Opening a winery is a great way to take a large fortune and turn it into a small fortune" haha.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 21:01:00
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Tue Aug 09 2022 05:12 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Fri Aug 05 2022 08:25 am

    A private for-profit company is going to embark on a project which takes

    Wine production, and by that I mean _good_ wine production (not what most English speakers consider wine these days) is pretty much just that.

    In Spain we have this saying that one sets a winery so his descendants make profit from it. Vines take quite a long time to get mature enough to produce top tier grapes. Before that point they kind of suck. If I plant vines today will be dead before they start producing their A grapes.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Good comparison. I live in Soutwest Michigan, and the soil, hills, and
    weather off of Lake Michigan is ideal for growing standard grapes and wine grapes. One small town near me has close to 12 wineries in it's proximity. The beer brewers are growing hops here as well, and there are tour bus
    services that drive over from Chicago to perform "grape and grain" tours.

    When my parents bought their house, there were already Conchord grapes on the property. The previous renter was not a farmer, and let the grapes grow out
    of control. My father worked a full time factory job, and farmed part of our land and his parent's land after work. The orchards and grapes were all bulldozed away, and I would spend my afternoons digging and pulling steel
    fence posts that were left over. We did produce one barrel of wine before getting rid of them. Conchord grapes are better suited for grape juice, so
    the wine did not turn out well.

    Another neighbor planned to grow grapes, and bought some vine chutes from France. He must not have read up on what needs to be done, because he
    directly planted them. When the first settlers brought European grapes to
    the US, they would die during the first season. An insect species native to t he US would devour the roots. The grapes native to the US did not suffer
    from these bugs. The trick was to raise native species, then graft the European species to their roots or stalks. A friend from school found out
    some of the hilly sandy land that wouldn't grow corn or beans well was
    perfect for grapes. He owns a winery, but his prime income is selling grapes and juices to other wineries.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 21:11:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Tue Aug 09 2022 08:06 pm

    In Spain we have this saying that one sets a winery so his descendants make a profit from it. Vines take quite a long time to get mature enoug to produce top tier grapes. Before that point they kind of suck. If I plant vines today, I will be dead before they start producing their A grapes.

    In California we say "Opening a winery is a great way to take a large fortun

    In SW Michigan it is opening a micro brewery. Up the road from someone purchased a plot of land overlooking a small lake, and built a brwery and tasting room. I heard he invested $4 million. His brew master was a wine making dropout which foundbeer making was less season dependent. They
    offered a good product with a decent price, however they lacked the
    marketting skills and their tasting room was on the edge of the grape an grains
    tour route. They sold it off to someone local who brought in a more local crowd and more promotion and live music on weekends. The neighbor had them shut down due to the township noise ordinance on weekends. They will
    continue tasting, but are planning on opening another tasting room in a place with friendlier neighbors. From the road, the music in not that loud. The lake reflects some sound though.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Thursday, August 11, 2022 21:45:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Aug 09 2022 01:44 pm

    Unless there's a board or shareholders, a company is a dictatorship. There are such things as benevolent dictators who provide a level of comfort and opportunity to make profits to their people. I agree being a complete despot will not bring in the talented people needed to maintain and improve a
    colony. As a colony grows it may appear to be less of a dictatorship, however in the end there will be someone who is either active or silent in the colony's affairs that is getting their piece of the action.


    This is the odd thing about Capitalism. People say it belongs in a Democratic Free Society, but Capitalist Companies are about as close to a Communistic syste as you can get today.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Thursday, August 11, 2022 21:48:53
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Tue Aug 09 2022 05:12 pm

    Wine production, and by that I mean _good_ wine production (not what most English speakers consider wine these days) is pretty much just that.

    In Spain we have this saying that one sets a winery so his descendants make a profit from it. Vines take quite a long time to get mature enough to produce top tier grapes. Before that point they kind of suck. If I plant vines today, I will be dead before they start producing their A grapes.

    --

    That is a pretty specific small scale case, where the goal is to benefit your descendants. Nevertheless we often see later generations screwing it up.

    Terraforming a planet is of a vastly different scale.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, August 11, 2022 12:08:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to esc on Wed Aug 10 2022 09:11 pm

    In SW Michigan it is opening a micro brewery. Up the road from someone purchased a plot of land overlooking a small lake, and built a brwery and tasting room. I heard he invested $4 million. His brew master was a wine making dropout which foundbeer making was less season dependent. They offered a good product with a decent price, however they lacked the marketting skills and their tasting room was on the edge of the grape an grains
    tour route. They sold it off to someone local who brought in a more local crowd and more promotion and live music on weekends. The neighbor had them

    this literally sounds like almost every micro brewery startup in SE wisconsin. ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Thursday, August 11, 2022 13:10:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Thu Aug 11 2022 09:45 pm


    This is the odd thing about Capitalism. People say it belongs in a Democratic Free Society, but Capitalist Companies are about as close to a Communistic syste as you can get today.

    i think you are mixing business with politics.

    business entities are just about making money and they have to obey their country's laws.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Thursday, August 11, 2022 17:16:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Thu Aug 11 2022 09:45 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Aug 09 2022 01:44 pm

    Unless there's a board or shareholders, a company is a dictatorship. The are such things as benevolent dictators who provide a level of comfort an opportunity to make profits to their people. I agree being a complete despot will not bring in the talented people needed to maintain and impro a
    colony. As a colony grows it may appear to be less of a dictatorship, however in the end there will be someone who is either active or silent i the colony's affairs that is getting their piece of the action.


    This is the odd thing about Capitalism. People say it belongs in a Democrat

    In the case of China, their social system is communist, but their economic system is hybrid capitalism. Companies are allowed to act as a free enterprise, however the government is a silent partner that shaves their
    share no matter how well you do.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thursday, August 11, 2022 21:19:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Aug 11 2022 12:08 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to esc on Wed Aug 10 2022 09:11 pm

    In SW Michigan it is opening a micro brewery. Up the road from someone purchased a plot of land overlooking a small lake, and built a brwery and tasting room. I heard he invested $4 million. His brew master was a win making dropout which foundbeer making was less season dependent. They offered a good product with a decent price, however they lacked the marketting skills and their tasting room was on the edge of the grape an grains
    tour route. They sold it off to someone local who brought in a more loc crowd and more promotion and live music on weekends. The neighbor had th

    this literally sounds like almost every micro brewery startup in SE wiscons

    Interesting, but makes sense. People who know brewing well aren't always the best business people. They know beer, but lack the business and hospitality skills. Lots of foodies open short-lived restaurants. They don't understand the larger scale production, or have an ego, cannot keep down costs to make a profit. The old-school gun shop owners are the crabbiest, grouchy
    non-friendly people you'll ever meet. Some hate first time customers because they may not be as enthusiastic or as learned in firearms and ammunition.
    This scares off new shooters or they buy elsewhere. The newer dealers want
    to make their shops more customer friendly. A local archery instructor
    bought out an older archery shop's building and inventory, and remodeled the place to add more lights and added indoor archery lanes. His goal was to
    give an Apple Store experience to new archers.

    I worked for a small computer store in the late 90's and we had a tech we nicknamed Crusty Bob because he was very course in how he dealt with
    customers. We kept him in the back of the shop and he was only allowed to
    deal with certain more experienced customers. We set up assembly and setup ch ecklists for building new systems, and he would refuse to fill them out. If
    a new machine came back with a problem, he would blame the customer of opening
    the box and fiddling with connections. When a pc left the building, the
    sales manager would put an anti-tamper sticker that would tell us if a machine was opened. We would get back a pc because a floppy drive didn't work, and
    the label was not disturbed. He may have assembled it properly at first, but when cleaning up cables he might've flipped the data cable or forgot t he
    power connection. If he followed the checklist that would've been caught in the final test inspection.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to MRO on Friday, August 12, 2022 22:19:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Aug 11 2022 01:10 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Thu Aug 11 2022 09:45 pm


    This is the odd thing about Capitalism. People say it belongs in a Democratic Free Society, but Capitalist Companies are about as close to a Communistic syste as you can get today.

    i think you are mixing business with politics.

    business entities are just about making money and they have to obey their country's laws.

    Yes, I am. Deliberately. The fact that I walk into a 'business' shouldn't mean that democracy is left at the door.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Gamgee on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 13:06:11
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Ogg on Fri Jul 22 2022 07:46 am

    Ogg wrote to MRO <=-

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event.

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16,
    and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were those "faked" too?

    He did say "near side".
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #38:
    Don't drink and drive, but when you do, call Saul.
    Norco, CA WX: 93.8øF, 30.0% humidity, 5 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Belly on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 13:06:48
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Belly to Ogg on Fri Jul 22 2022 06:17 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to MRO on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:55 pm

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event. All it takes is ONE successful
    unmanned landing by a 3rd-party or unbiased country/enterprise
    to visit the original landing area. It's almost like every
    attemp has been sabotaged to fail.

    What are you smoking? No landings since Apollo 11? Seriously?

    He did say "near side".
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #3:
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 13:14:08
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Jul 23 2022 02:35 pm

    You're actually believing in the conspiracy that it DID happen. and you are ignoring the facts that there are many lies, half truths and oddities about the moon landing. not to mention that it's a technological feat that was almost impossible for that time.

    I had a grand parent, now passed, that absolutely positively was an engineer that helped get the Apollo missions successfully completed. And he owned both a mission coin and a portion of a moon rock along with all his architectural and engineering drawings as momentos, not that he thought he needed to retain any evidence. *Thousands* of people were actively involved in the process, all the successes and failures. It was impossible to "fake" the results in an attempt to somehow fool the engineers invovled.

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it. It's weird that you can't accept that.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #2:
    We flipped a coin, OK? You and me. You and me! Coin flip is sacred! - Jesse Norco, CA WX: 94.4øF, 26.0% humidity, 8 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 15:18:00
    Digital Man wrote to Gamgee <=-

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event.

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16,
    and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were those "faked" too?

    He did say "near side".

    Yes.... <confused look> All manned and unmanned landings (except for
    maybe one Chinese in 2019-ish) have been on the near side.



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 15:53:06
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Tue Aug 16 2022 01:14 pm

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it.

    I think it's a little weird that people think we didn't and there was a conspiracy to fake it, and kept secret for this long. I've heard some people say Russia was watching, and they would have noticed if we didn't make it to the moon. Surely they would have made a big deal out of it if we hadn't made it.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Gamgee on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 17:18:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 03:18 pm

    Digital Man wrote to Gamgee <=-

    ** On Thursday 21.07.22 - 15:30, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    also the moon landing was faked.

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event.

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were those "faked" too?

    He did say "near side".

    Yes.... <confused look> All manned and unmanned landings (except for
    maybe one Chinese in 2019-ish) have been on the near side.

    I didn't know that. I thought there was some significance to the specificity of "near side". Moon landings are clearly something I know very little about. But they did happen. :-)
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #34:
    The back-up synchro.net nameserver and CVS repository is hosted by Deuce
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 17:19:38
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 03:53 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Tue Aug 16 2022 01:14 pm

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it.

    I think it's a little weird that people think we didn't and there was a conspiracy to fake it, and kept secret for this long. I've heard some people say Russia was watching, and they would have noticed if we didn't make it to the moon. Surely they would have made a big deal out of it if we hadn't made it.

    Yup. And the thousands of Americans that were involved in these massive projects would have made a big deal too.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #33:
    This guy [Gale], it's like scarface had sex with Mr. Rogers. - Hank Schrader Norco, CA WX: 92.6øF, 24.0% humidity, 15 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 21:08:18
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Tue Aug 16 2022 01:14 pm


    I had a grand parent, now passed, that absolutely positively was an engineer that helped get the Apollo missions successfully completed. And he owned both a mission coin and a portion of a moon rock along with all his architectural and engineering drawings as momentos, not that he thought he needed to retain any evidence. *Thousands* of people were actively involved in the process, all the successes and failures. It was impossible to "fake" the results in an attempt to somehow fool the engineers invovled.

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it. It's weird that you can't accept that.

    i'm just saying there's a lot of strange things that happened surrounding the moonlanding. There's many odd things that don't make sense. Nothing is impossible. and thousands of people have been fooled before. also it's illegal to have a moon rock! why is that?
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 21:09:05
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 03:53 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Tue Aug 16 2022 01:14 pm

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it.

    I think it's a little weird that people think we didn't and there was a conspiracy to fake it, and kept secret for this long. I've heard some people say Russia was watching, and they would have noticed if we didn't make it to the moon. Surely they would have made a big deal out of it if we hadn't made it.


    if you live long enough to see the truth, you might not even believe it then. certainly something fishy was up.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 21:43:00
    Digital Man wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It is interesting that there hasn't been one successful
    subsequent successful landing on the near side (even unmanned)
    since the Apollo 11 event.

    Well, you mean besides the Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16, and Apollo 17 missions (all manned)? Or were those "faked" too?

    He did say "near side".

    Yes.... <confused look> All manned and unmanned landings (except for
    maybe one Chinese in 2019-ish) have been on the near side.

    I didn't know that. I thought there was some significance to the specificity of "near side". Moon landings are clearly something I
    know very little about. But they did happen. :-)

    Indeed they did! Yes, the "near side" is the part we can see from
    Earth, it's always lit by the sun (moon doesn't spin in relation to
    Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never
    sees the light of the sun. It would be very difficult to see you on the
    Dark Side of the Moon, regardless of Pink Floyd's promise... ;-)



    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Digital Man on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 23:10:00
    Yup. And the thousands of Americans that were involved in these massive projects would have made a big deal too.

    That's the biggest problem with conspiracy theories. There would need to be reams of people all colluding with one another to keep a secret this big.

    How would they find people to agree to do this? How would they vet these people? How would they conduct interviews and keep this massive secret under wraps?

    The inability of humans to keep secrets is all the evidence anyone needs to debunk conspiracy theories.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 19:41:41
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 03:53 pm

    I think it's a little weird that people think we didn't and there was a conspiracy to fake it, and kept secret for this long. I've heard some people say Russia was watching, and they would have noticed if we didn't make it to the moon. Surely they would have made a big deal out of it if we hadn't made it.

    Nightfox

    The Russians were watching, and further to this, contacted the USA to congratulate them on their achievement.

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 07:37:00
    MRO wrote to Digital Man <=-

    I had a grand parent, now passed, that absolutely positively was an engineer that helped get the Apollo missions successfully completed. And he owned both a mission coin and a portion of a moon rock along with all his architectural and engineering drawings as momentos, not that he thought he needed to retain any evidence. *Thousands* of people were actively involved in the process, all the successes and failures. It was impossible to "fake" the results in an attempt to somehow fool the engineers invovled.

    Just because *you* don't understand how it was possible and accomplished doesn't make it impossible. It wasn't impossible and we did it. It's weird that you can't accept that.

    i'm just saying there's a lot of strange things that happened
    surrounding the moonlanding.

    That's not what you've been "just saying" up to this point. You have
    been saying that it flat-out didn't happen. Changing your tune now?

    There's many odd things that don't make sense.

    Things that don't make sense *TO* *YOU*. That's because you're under-educated.

    Nothing is impossible.

    Wrong again.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:33:50
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 09:43 pm

    Indeed they did! Yes, the "near side" is the part we can see from
    Earth, it's always lit by the sun (moon doesn't spin in relation to Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never sees the light of the sun. It would be very difficult to see you on the Dark Side of the Moon, regardless of Pink Floyd's promise... ;-)

    That's not true. at all.

    The moon has phases as it orbits earth, in which only part of the near side of the moon is lit, and part of the far side of the moon is lit. during a new moon, the far side of the moon is lit, and the near side is not.

    Same with a solar eclipse.

    DaiTengu

    ... Average is as close to the bottom as it is to the top.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:50:43
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 11:10 pm

    That's the biggest problem with conspiracy theories. There would need to be reams of people all colluding with one another to keep a secret this big.

    How would they find people to agree to do this? How would they vet these people? How would they conduct interviews and keep this massive secret under wraps?

    The inability of humans to keep secrets is all the evidence anyone needs to debunk conspiracy theories.

    it's not hard to fool a lot of people if you keep your circle of people in the knowing small. and to keep them quiet all you need is one convincing demonstration of what would happen if you talked.

    secrets are kept all the time. the stuff that is leaked is usually meant to be leaked.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:51:27
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Wed Aug 17 2022 07:41 pm


    The Russians were watching, and further to this, contacted the USA to congratulate them on their achievement.

    they were watching that empty rocket go up and something that was waiting in orbit go down.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 09:23:55
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 09:43 pm

    Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never sees the light of the sun.

    Never sees the light of the sun? Wouldn't the far side of the moon get light from the sun during a solar eclipse (or other times when the moon is anywhere between the earth and the sun)?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Gamgee on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 07:37:00
    Hello Gamgee!

    ** On Tuesday 16.08.22 - 21:43, Gamgee wrote to Digital Man:

    [..] The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never
    sees the light of the sun.

    Only true during a full moon.

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  • From Belly@VERT/BRAZINET to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 13:34:55
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to Belly on Tue Aug 16 2022 01:06 pm

    What are you smoking? No landings since Apollo 11? Seriously?

    He did say "near side".

    What about Apollo 12, Apollo 14, Apollo 15, Apollo 16, Apollo 17, Chang'e 3, and Chang'e 5? Did those not count? Chang'e 5 even lifted off and returned samples.

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

    ---
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  • From Belly@VERT/BRAZINET to Gamgee on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 13:36:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 03:18 pm

    Yes.... <confused look> All manned and unmanned landings (except for
    maybe one Chinese in 2019-ish) have been on the near side.

    Absolutely. That one was Chang'e 4.

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

    ---
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  • From Belly@VERT/BRAZINET to Gamgee on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 13:39:34
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 09:43 pm

    Indeed they did! Yes, the "near side" is the part we can see from
    Earth, it's always lit by the sun (moon doesn't spin in relation to
    Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never sees the light of the sun. It would be very difficult to see you on the Dark Side of the Moon, regardless of Pink Floyd's promise... ;-)

    No, no, no! There is no 'dark side' of the Moon. Just a near and far side. The Moon is tidally locked to Earth, so the same side always faces us, but the far side gets just as much sunlight as the near side does, as it orbits Earth. One might even argue that the far side gets MORE sunlight, since it is never eclipsed by Earth, as occasionally happens to the near side.

    o
    (O)
    BeLLy

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 14:43:00
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Indeed they did! Yes, the "near side" is the part we can see from
    Earth, it's always lit by the sun (moon doesn't spin in relation to Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never sees the light of the sun. It would be very difficult to see you on the Dark Side of the Moon, regardless of Pink Floyd's promise... ;-)

    That's not true. at all.

    The moon has phases as it orbits earth, in which only part of
    the near side of the moon is lit, and part of the far side of the
    moon is lit. during a new moon, the far side of the moon is lit,
    and the near side is not.

    You're absolutely right, not sure where my mind was when I wrote that...
    It would be correct to say though, that we never can see the "far side"
    of the moon from Earth. Thanks for correcting that.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 14:44:00
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never sees the light of the sun.

    Never sees the light of the sun? Wouldn't the far side of the
    moon get light from the sun during a solar eclipse (or other
    times when the moon is anywhere between the earth and the sun)?

    Yes, absolutely. My brain was malfunctioning there for a minute. ;-)



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Belly on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 14:46:00
    Belly wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Indeed they did! Yes, the "near side" is the part we can see from
    Earth, it's always lit by the sun (moon doesn't spin in relation to
    Earth). The other side of the moon is always dark (and cold) and never
    sees the light of the sun. It would be very difficult to see you on the Dark Side of the Moon, regardless of Pink Floyd's promise... ;-)

    No, no, no! There is no 'dark side' of the Moon. Just a near and
    far side. The Moon is tidally locked to Earth, so the same side
    always faces us, but the far side gets just as much sunlight as
    the near side does, as it orbits Earth. One might even argue that
    the far side gets MORE sunlight, since it is never eclipsed by
    Earth, as occasionally happens to the near side.

    Yes, agreed completely. I may have been listening to Pink Floyd when I
    wrote that, and all reason left me for a bit... ;-)



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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 21:41:00
    it's not hard to fool a lot of people if you keep your circle of people
    in the knowing small. and to keep them quiet all you need is one convincing demonstration of what would happen if you talked.

    If only it were as easy as they make it seem in the movies.

    secrets are kept all the time. the stuff that is leaked is usually meant to be leaked.

    I appreciate your conjecture here ;) but my experience tells me otherwise.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Thursday, August 18, 2022 01:19:11
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Wed Aug 17 2022 09:41 pm

    it's not hard to fool a lot of people if you keep your circle of people in the knowing small. and to keep them quiet all you need is one convincing demonstration of what would happen if you talked.

    If only it were as easy as they make it seem in the movies.


    you never met my family.

    and it's true, dead men tell no tales.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Thursday, August 18, 2022 21:40:49
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Wed Aug 17 2022 10:51 am

    The Russians were watching, and further to this, contacted the USA to congratulate them on their achievement.

    they were watching that empty rocket go up and something that was waiting in orbit go down.

    You have not a single shred of evidence that it was faked.

    This nonsense has gone long enough. Surely you're taking the piss...

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Thursday, August 18, 2022 14:58:17
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Thu Aug 18 2022 09:40 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Wed Aug 17 2022 10:51 am

    The Russians were watching, and further to this, contacted the USA to congratulate them on their achievement.

    they were watching that empty rocket go up and something that was waiting in orbit go down.

    You have not a single shred of evidence that it was faked.

    This nonsense has gone long enough. Surely you're taking the piss...

    you just have to connect the dots.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Friday, August 19, 2022 21:44:01
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Aug 18 2022 02:58 pm

    You have not a single shred of evidence that it was faked.

    This nonsense has gone long enough. Surely you're taking the piss...

    you just have to connect the dots.

    That is not evidence. That is just you interpreting some facts, and a lot of your misunderstanding a particular way.

    You have a hypothesis, which you suspect may be true. Then if that is the case, there would be evidence to support it. There should be documentation, confessions, leaked information which points to a conspiracy to fake it.

    The fact that NOTHING like that has come forth, tells me you connected the dots wrong. What you say is incongruent with reality. The complete lack of evidence of any program to fake the landing is best explained by the fact there wasn't an attempt to fake the landings.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Friday, August 19, 2022 11:08:01
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Aug 19 2022 09:44 pm

    of your misunderstanding a particular way.

    You have a hypothesis, which you suspect may be true. Then if that is the case, there would be evidence to support it. There should be documentation, confessions, leaked information which points to a conspiracy to fake it.

    The fact that NOTHING like that has come forth, tells me you connected the dots wrong. What you say is incongruent with reality. The complete lack of evidence of any program to fake the landing is best explained by the fact


    there's tons of evidence.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Friday, August 19, 2022 20:32:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    You have a hypothesis, which you suspect may be true. Then if that is the case, there would be evidence to support it. There should be documentation, confessions, leaked information which points to a conspiracy to fake it.

    The fact that NOTHING like that has come forth, tells me you connected the dots wrong. What you say is incongruent with reality. The complete lack of evidence of any program to fake the landing is best explained by the fact

    there's tons of evidence.

    And yet..... you can't provide any.

    You're an idiot.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Friday, August 19, 2022 23:12:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to MRO on Fri Aug 19 2022 08:32 pm

    there's tons of evidence.

    And yet..... you can't provide any.

    We all know it's enough to just say there's evidence. His philosophy is you can Google it yourself.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Saturday, August 20, 2022 21:37:29
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Aug 19 2022 11:08 am

    of your misunderstanding a particular way.

    You have a hypothesis, which you suspect may be true. Then if that is the case, there would be evidence to support it. There should be documentation, confessions, leaked information which points to a conspiracy to fake it.

    The fact that NOTHING like that has come forth, tells me you connected the dots wrong. What you say is incongruent with reality. The complete lack of evidence of any program to fake the landing is best explained by the fact


    there's tons of evidence.

    "Something seems sus to me" isn't evidence.

    What evidence of a conspiracy or program to fake the landings is there? Is there a single leaked document?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, August 20, 2022 10:48:32
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Aug 20 2022 09:37 pm

    there's tons of evidence.

    "Something seems sus to me" isn't evidence.


    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.
    the behavior and actions of nasa before and after.

    tons of shit.

    you seriously want leaked documents? like they would document faking the moon landing.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:14:13
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Aug 20 2022 10:48 am

    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.

    That doesn't change the fact that it's a 'fact' (as you rightly said).

    Nuclear fision doesn't make sense to me; doesn't mean it isn't real.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #45:
    Tough love, all right? Here goes: You 2 suck at peddling meth. period. - Saul Norco, CA WX: 81.8øF, 59.0% humidity, 7 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Saturday, August 20, 2022 18:40:00
    MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

    there's tons of evidence.

    "Something seems sus to me" isn't evidence.

    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.

    So show us some, with links.

    the behavior and actions of nasa before and after.

    Describe that behavior, and back it up with documented facts.

    tons of shit.

    You keep saying that, but don't actually show anything.

    It's you who's full of tons of shit.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Sunday, August 21, 2022 00:26:34
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Sat Aug 20 2022 12:14 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Aug 20 2022 10:48 am

    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.

    That doesn't change the fact that it's a 'fact' (as you rightly said).

    Nuclear fision doesn't make sense to me; doesn't mean it isn't real.


    i didn't mean it just doesn't make sense to me; it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. most people just blindly follow.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Saturday, August 20, 2022 23:43:00
    you seriously want leaked documents? like they would document faking the moon landing.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Sunday, August 21, 2022 20:34:56
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Aug 20 2022 10:48 am

    "Something seems sus to me" isn't evidence.


    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.
    the behavior and actions of nasa before and after.

    tons of shit.

    you seriously want leaked documents? like they would document faking the moon landing.

    Yeah, they would organise something as complex as a faked moon landing involving thousands of people without so much as a single document. Incredible.

    You've got nothing.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Sunday, August 21, 2022 16:14:57
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Sun Aug 21 2022 12:26 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Sat Aug 20 2022 12:14 pm

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Aug 20 2022 10:48 am

    there's all kinds of odd facts that dont make sense.

    That doesn't change the fact that it's a 'fact' (as you rightly said).

    Nuclear fision doesn't make sense to me; doesn't mean it isn't real.


    i didn't mean it just doesn't make sense to me; it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. most people just blindly follow.

    It made sense to all the physicists and engineers that were involved, including my grand parent. So yeah, the moon landings actually happened. No blind faith required.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #46:
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    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Sunday, August 21, 2022 21:38:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Sat Aug 20 2022 11:43 pm

    you seriously want leaked documents? like they would document faking the moon landing.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. :)

    too bad
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Sunday, August 21, 2022 21:38:43
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sun Aug 21 2022 08:34 pm


    Yeah, they would organise something as complex as a faked moon landing involving thousands of people without so much as a single document. Incredible.

    You've got nothing.

    you're right i have nothing. where's the telemetry data? where's the original moon landing tapes? we dont have it.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Sunday, August 21, 2022 21:40:04
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Sun Aug 21 2022 04:14 pm


    i didn't mean it just doesn't make sense to me; it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. most people just blindly follow.

    It made sense to all the physicists and engineers that were involved, including my grand parent. So yeah, the moon landings actually happened. No blind faith required.

    you might find out in your life time or maybe your grandchildren will find out that something fishy happend there and it was probably faked entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Sunday, August 21, 2022 22:22:00
    entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add
    up. ---

    I'm genuinely curious, can you list out the occurrences? What is it that you're claiming is fishy?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to DaiTengu on Sunday, August 21, 2022 21:17:23
    On 8/17/22 08:33, DaiTengu wrote:
    That's not true. at all.

    The moon has phases as it orbits earth, in which only part of the
    near side of the moon is lit, and part of the far side of the moon is
    lit. during a new moon, the far side of the moon is lit, and the near
    side is not.

    Same with a solar eclipse.

    The part that is shown in a "full moon" is the only part that ever gets sunlight... the moon rotates on its own access at the same rate it
    travels around the earth. When you see part of the moon in darkness,
    it's the Earth's shadow on the moon.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Tracker1 on Sunday, August 21, 2022 21:19:07
    On 8/21/22 21:17, Tracker1 wrote:
    On 8/17/22 08:33, DaiTengu wrote:
    That's not true. at all.

    The moon has phases as it orbits earth, in which only part of the
    near side of the moon is lit, and part of the far side of the moon is
    lit. during a new moon, the far side of the moon is lit, and the near side is not.

    Same with a solar eclipse.

    The part that is shown in a "full moon" is the only part that ever gets sunlight... the moon rotates on its own access at the same rate it
    travels around the earth. When you see part of the moon in darkness,
    it's the Earth's shadow on the moon.

    NM... I was mixing near/far with solar position.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Tracker1 on Monday, August 22, 2022 09:29:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:17 pm

    The part that is shown in a "full moon" is the only part that ever gets sunlight... the moon rotates on its own access at the same rate it travels around the earth. When you see part of the moon in darkness,
    it's the Earth's shadow on the moon.

    What?

    When we have a "new moon" the other side of the moon is getting sunlight. the whole moon gets lit up over the course of a month, but because it's tidally locked we only see one side of it.

    How would moon phases work if only the front side of the moon were getting lit up?

    DaiTengu

    ... Nationalise crime, and make sure it doesn't pay.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Tracker1 on Monday, August 22, 2022 08:36:03
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:17 pm

    the moon rotates on its own access

    I think you mean axis?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Monday, August 22, 2022 11:09:16
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Sun Aug 21 2022 10:22 pm

    entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up. ---

    I'm genuinely curious, can you list out the occurrences? What is it that you're claiming is fishy?

    not really i dont have the energy for it. i've talked about it here in the past.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Monday, August 22, 2022 11:25:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Mon Aug 22 2022 08:36 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:17 pm

    the moon rotates on its own access

    I think you mean axis?

    nope
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Tracker1 on Monday, August 22, 2022 07:47:00
    Hello Tracker1!

    ** On Sunday 21.08.22 - 21:17, Tracker1 wrote to DaiTengu:

    .. When you see part of the moon in darkness, it's the
    Earth's shadow on the moon.

    Wrong.

    The shadow is due to the sun, not the earth. The only time the
    earth's shadow hits the moon is during a lunar eclipse.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Monday, August 22, 2022 13:04:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to esc on Mon Aug 22 2022 11:09 am

    I'm genuinely curious, can you list out the occurrences? What is it
    that you're claiming is fishy?

    not really i dont have the energy for it. i've talked about it here in the past. ---

    And multiple people have explained how your "stuff that doesn't add up" actually adds up.

    Space suits weren't "tinfoil", which seems to be your primary gripe. There is actual evidence of things that were left on the moon by all the apollo missions (mirrors that distance-finding lasers are able to bounce off of, for instance). Oh, not to mention the 2009 images from the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter
    https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html

    There are actually sharper, more recent pictures too. it seems to be collected here:
    https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/revisited/index.html

    I fully expect, if you respond to this, it to go something along the lines of "blah blah blah, don't believe NASA blah blah"
    You simply just don't WANT to believe that humans have been on the moon, even though the evidence for having done so is overwhelming. We could drop a person on the moon, with a 4K HD camera right next to one of the Apollo landers, and you'd say "That's not a person, that's a robot, and that stuff was left there by robots" We could take a picture of Neil Armstrong's footprints, and you'd claim it was "fake" or CGI, or that it was just some robot wearing a moon boot that left it.

    DaiTengu

    ... I don't deserve this, but I have arthritis and I don't deserve that either

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Monday, August 22, 2022 11:56:22
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:40 pm

    you might find out in your life time or maybe your grandchildren will find out that something fishy happend there and it was probably faked entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.

    I won't be holding my breath.

    More likely, in my life time, we'll return to the moon again and locate and broadcast many of the artifacts we left behind the last time we were there.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #74:
    SSH = Secure Shell
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Tracker1 on Monday, August 22, 2022 11:59:29
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:17 pm

    On 8/17/22 08:33, DaiTengu wrote:
    That's not true. at all.

    The moon has phases as it orbits earth, in which only part of the
    near side of the moon is lit, and part of the far side of the moon is lit. during a new moon, the far side of the moon is lit, and the near side is not.

    Same with a solar eclipse.

    The part that is shown in a "full moon" is the only part that ever gets sunlight... the moon rotates on its own access at the same rate it
    travels around the earth. When you see part of the moon in darkness,
    it's the Earth's shadow on the moon.

    https://www.yalescientific.org/2015/05/mythbusters-is-there-really-a-dark-side-of-the-moon/
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #30:
    Damn, chick's got an ass like an onion - makes me want to cry. - Hank Schrader Norco, CA WX: 80.0øF, 64.0% humidity, 5 mph SSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Monday, August 22, 2022 20:46:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Mon Aug 22 2022 01:04 pm


    not really i dont have the energy for it. i've talked about it here in the past. ---

    And multiple people have explained how your "stuff that doesn't add up" actually adds up.


    not really, just people that blindly follow.



    Space suits weren't "tinfoil", which seems to be your primary gripe. There is actual evidence of things that were left on the moon by all the apollo missions (mirrors that distance-finding lasers are able to bounce off of,

    they were essentially tin foil garbage, as were most of the equipment.
    nobody in their right mind would enter space using that stuff. i've been a few feet away from it. everyone i went there with agreed.


    I fully expect, if you respond to this, it to go something along the lines of "blah blah blah, don't believe NASA blah blah"
    You simply just don't WANT to believe that humans have been on the moon, even though the evidence for having done so is overwhelming. We could drop a person on the moon, with a 4K HD camera right next to one of the Apollo landers, and you'd say "That's not a person, that's a robot, and that stuff was left there by robots" We could take a picture of Neil Armstrong's footprints, and you'd claim it was "fake" or CGI, or that it was just some robot wearing a moon boot that left it.


    so why havent we had a man on the moon since the 70s? makes no sense.
    if we had the ability we would be up there playing around all the time.

    and whenever there's a photograph of the earth it's been played with by nasa artists.

    You'll see i'm correct in time, if you live long enough.

    There are certainly many things about our space missions that don't add up. people want to believe it happened, but I feel there are too many things i've read that raises doubt in me.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Monday, August 22, 2022 20:46:37
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Mon Aug 22 2022 11:56 am

    Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Sun Aug 21 2022 09:40 pm

    you might find out in your life time or maybe your grandchildren will find out that something fishy happend there and it was probably faked entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.

    I won't be holding my breath.

    More likely, in my life time, we'll return to the moon again and locate and broadcast many of the artifacts we left behind the last time we were there.

    don't hold your breath for THAT.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Digital Man on Monday, August 22, 2022 21:00:00
    Digital Man wrote to MRO <=-

    you might find out in your life time or maybe your grandchildren will find out that something fishy happend there and it was probably faked entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.

    I won't be holding my breath.

    More likely, in my life time, we'll return to the moon again and
    locate and broadcast many of the artifacts we left behind the
    last time we were there.

    Well, you don't have to wait long. The Artemis I flight is scheduled
    for about a week from now. That is unmanned, and will orbit the moon,
    and return (a 42 day mission). Then, in May 2024, a manned flight
    (Artemis II) will do the same (a 10 day mission). Sometime in 2025, a 4-person crew (Artemis III) will land 2 people (one of them a woman) on
    the surface of the moon, and return (a 30 day mission).

    Since MRO likely doesn't believe this, here are some links:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program

    https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/

    I know.... they're probably all faked websites. ;-)



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Monday, August 22, 2022 21:12:00
    MRO wrote to esc <=-

    entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.

    I'm genuinely curious, can you list out the occurrences? What is it that you're claiming is fishy?

    not really i dont have the energy for it. i've talked about it
    here in the past.

    Haha! Who's surprised at this answer? Can't answer a simple question.


    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 07:24:00
    MRO wrote to Digital Man <=-

    you might find out in your life time or maybe your grandchildren will find out that something fishy happend there and it was probably faked entirely or partially. there's too many odd occurances that don't add up.

    More likely, in my life time, we'll return to the moon again and locate and broadcast many of the artifacts we left behind the last time we were there.

    don't hold your breath for THAT.

    Hey doofus! Watch the Artemis I launch in about a week. Let's see what
    you have to say after that.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dr. What@VERT/OLDSCH to Ogg on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 09:13:00
    Ogg wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    The shadow is due to the sun, not the earth. The only time the
    earth's shadow hits the moon is during a lunar eclipse.

    Um... No. I wonder if out school systems are worse than I expect now.

    By the time I was 5 (keep in mind that I was always interested in space exploration), I understood how all this worked.

    Sun -> Earth -> Moon - in this configuration, depending on where the moon is in relation to the Earth, the moon will move from waxing crescent to full to waning crescent to New. This is due to the Earth blocking the sunlight. So the shadow on the Moon is caused by the Earth.

    Sun -> Moon -> Earth - in this configuration, depdending on where the moon is in relation to the Earth, is where we get eclipses. The moon, blocks the light from the Sun. In this case, she Moon is casting a shadow on the Earth.


    ... Insanity is just a state of mind.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 08:54:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 22 2022 08:46 pm

    so why havent we had a man on the moon since the 70s? makes no sense.

    I don't think we've had a real need to go back to the moon. Makes sense to me..

    if we had the ability we would be up there playing around all the time.

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 13:04:54
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Tue Aug 23 2022 09:13 am

    Um... No. I wonder if out school systems are worse than I expect now.


    you mean google?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 13:07:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Aug 23 2022 08:54 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 22 2022 08:46 pm

    so why havent we had a man on the moon since the 70s? makes no sense.

    I don't think we've had a real need to go back to the moon. Makes sense to me..

    why not? why did we go in the first place. sounds like you are drinking the koolaid, dude.

    if we had the ability we would be up there playing around all the time.

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    all kinds of things. like we could practice colonizing on other planets.
    we could practice building and growing things in space.

    so you believe that we actually went there with that flimsy junk and you also believe that there's no reason to go back after 50 years.

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.
    you really let them mindfuck you good.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 12:36:45
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 01:07 pm

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.

    As far as I can tell, there has been no convincing evidence to the contrary presented in the last 50+ years. And I think that's plenty of time for someone to hvae presented good evidence, if there was any. I'd think at least someone would have admitted something by now if they knew it was faked.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 15:04:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Digital Man on Tue Aug 16 2022 11:10 pm

    Yup. And the thousands of Americans that were involved in these massive projects would have made a big deal too.

    That's the biggest problem with conspiracy theories. There would need to be reams o

    How would they find people to agree to do this? How would they vet these people? Ho

    The inability of humans to keep secrets is all the evidence anyone needs to debunk

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

    Actually, the issue with conspiracy theories is that they are usually non-falsable.
    ie. there is no easy way to prove they are wrong.

    I can formulate the hipothesis that the Spanish Socialist Party promised the ETA
    terrorist organization they would have political representation if the Socialist Party
    won the next election, and that is the reason why ETA announced they were laying down
    arms just before the election (to help the Socialists make it). It is not an unreasonable theory and laymen cannot prove the hipothesis wrong easily. I cannot
    prove it right either, but when formulated it may cast doubts on events.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 16:28:59
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 01:07 pm

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.
    you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Many people, from many countries, have performed the laser range-finding experiment with the mirrors on the moon.

    Over time the mirrors have gotten a bit dusty, but it still can be performed today.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjbdH1y_ds

    DaiTengu

    ... Dead people are cool

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 15:47:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Aug 23 2022 08:54 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 22 2022 08:46 pm

    so why havent we had a man on the moon since the 70s? makes no sense.

    I don't think we've had a real need to go back to the moon. Makes sense to

    if we had the ability we would be up there playing around all the time.

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    Nightfox

    Other than the fact we could go to the moon, we could not sustain a colony there at that time. We spent billions of dollars, and discovered we have
    more to learn before we could place even a short term colony in place. Moon dust over an extended period of time would act as microscopic razor blades, w earing away at fabrics, damaging seals, and would be detrimental if inhaled
    in larger quantities. In the long run Mars would be less harsh to live on.


    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 16:18:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 03:47 pm

    Other than the fact we could go to the moon, we could not sustain a colony there at that time. We spent billions of dollars, and discovered we have more to learn before we could place even a short term colony in place. Moon dust over an extended period of time would act as microscopic razor blades, w earing away at fabrics, damaging seals, and would be detrimental if inhaled in larger quantities. In the long run Mars would be less harsh to live on.

    I think we're far from needing a colony on another planet right now, and even being able to get to the moon or Mars, I'm not sure we have the technology to make the environment more livable and safe for us.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 02:02:20
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Aug 23 2022 12:36 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 01:07 pm

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.

    As far as I can tell, there has been no convincing evidence to the contrary presented in the last 50+ years. And I think that's plenty of time for someone to hvae presented good evidence, if there was any. I'd think at least someone would have admitted something by now if they knew it was faked.

    that's a lot of blind faith and assumptions.

    have you ever seen the video of the astronauts describing space? one guy says it's as black as velvet. one says it's full of stars.
    also that last video i posted pointed out strange video oddities.

    and the shit that keeps getting repeated "there's not reason to go back". that's a product of a manipulation. of course there's a reason to go back.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 02:04:36
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to esc on Tue Aug 23 2022 03:04 pm

    Actually, the issue with conspiracy theories is that they are usually non-falsable. ie. there is no easy way to prove they are wrong.

    I can formulate the hipothesis that the Spanish Socialist Party promised the ETA terrorist organization they would have political representation if the Socialist Party won the next election, and that is the reason why ETA announced they were laying down arms just before the election (to help the Socialists make it). It is not an unreasonable theory and laymen cannot prove the hipothesis wrong easily. I cannot prove it right either, but when formulated it may cast doubts on events.

    --

    the thing is 98% of people don't want to think. they don't question. they want to be told something and they believe it. Since i've started school and lot of what i was told was proven wrong about a lot of things. you can't blindly follow and not question. it's what holds us all back.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 02:05:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue Aug 23 2022 04:28 pm

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you. you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Many people, from many countries, have performed the laser range-finding experiment with the mirrors on the moon.

    Over time the mirrors have gotten a bit dusty, but it still can be performed today.

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 22:02:11
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 01:07 pm

    I don't think we've had a real need to go back to the moon. Makes sense to me..

    why not? why did we go in the first place. sounds like you are drinking the koolaid, dude.

    if we had the ability we would be up there playing around all the time.

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    all kinds of things. like we could practice colonizing on other planets.
    we could practice building and growing things in space.

    so you believe that we actually went there with that flimsy junk and you also believe that there's no reason to go back after 50 years.

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.
    you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Practice? We can practice on the Earth. Excavating, mining, building, all can be done here.

    This really is too funny!

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Dr. What on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 22:07:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Tue Aug 23 2022 09:13 am

    The shadow is due to the sun, not the earth. The only time the
    earth's shadow hits the moon is during a lunar eclipse.

    Um... No. I wonder if out school systems are worse than I expect now.

    By the time I was 5 (keep in mind that I was always interested in space exploration), I understood how all this worked.

    Sun -> Earth -> Moon - in this configuration, depending on where the moon is in relation to the Earth, the moon will move from waxing crescent to full to waning crescent to New. This is due to the Earth blocking the sunlight. So the shadow on the Moon is caused by the Earth.

    Sun -> Moon -> Earth - in this configuration, depdending on where the moon is in relation to the Earth, is where we get eclipses. The moon, blocks the light from the Sun. In this case, she Moon is casting a shadow on the Earth.


    Ironic. The person complaining about the school system get basic science wrong.

    Am I reading this right? Are you seriously suggesting that when the moon is almost between the Earth and the Sun, and you only see a sliver, that it is the Earth shadow, which somehow is pointing TOWARDS the sun which makes most of the moon dark?

    You've never seen or heard of a Lunar eclipse?

    The level of ignorance displayed by people here is astonishing.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 08:31:00
    Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    Mining. The moon is rich in resources.
    Ore processing. No atmosphere makes solar energy actually useful.
    Low-G pharmacuticals. Gravity makes it harder to make some drugs.
    And more.

    The issue still is the amount of resources it takes to get off Earth and they need to figure out how to get the processed materials back on Earth (without breaking them).


    ... I was on a roll, till I slipped on the butter.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 07:43:00
    MRO wrote to DaiTengu <=-

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you. you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Many people, from many countries, have performed the laser range-finding experiment with the mirrors on the moon.

    Over time the mirrors have gotten a bit dusty, but it still can be performed today.

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait,
    we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange,
    isn't it?

    Look up the NASA Artemis program, you un-educated stooge.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 10:27:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Aug 23 2022 04:18 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Tue Aug 23 2022 03:47 pm

    Other than the fact we could go to the moon, we could not sustain a col there at that time. We spent billions of dollars, and discovered we hav more to learn before we could place even a short term colony in place. Moon dust over an extended period of time would act as microscopic razo blades, w earing away at fabrics, damaging seals, and would be detrimen if inhaled in larger quantities. In the long run Mars would be less har to live on.

    I think we're far from needing a colony on another planet right now, and eve

    Nightfox


    The Space Race was essential to the Cold War. In 12 years of the USSR
    putting a satllite in space, the US put a man on the mmon and repeated it several times. True, we did not need a colony. The only motive to do it
    back then is if the Soviets put a man there, and to flex our econmic and techn ologicial might. Most of studies we need to perform in microgravity can be done from the ISS.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 09:14:24
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:04 am

    the thing is 98% of people don't want to think. they don't question. they

    Questioning is one thing (and is generally good), but you can also take it further, into uninformed disbelief and conspiracy territory.

    The thing is that not everyone can be experts in everything. Like many people, I don't work in the aerospace industry and don't know all the details of how space missions work, etc.. Some things may seem weird to us, but without a good understanding of it, it could be easy to misconstrue and misinterpret things and come up with a conspiracy theory that may not be true.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 09:16:04
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?

    No, it's not strange. It's like if you have an old car that you haven't driven in 50 years, it's not likely that the engine will run without work. If they haven't taken their rockets back to the moon (and maybe haven't built new ones), then it's probably not likely that they'll work well enough to get back there.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Dr. What on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 19:16:00
    Hello Dr. What!

    ** On Tuesday 23.08.22 - 09:13, Dr. What wrote to Ogg:

    ... So the shadow on the Moon is caused by the Earth.

    A popular misconception. You seem to be among those popular.

    ;)


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 13:15:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it? ---

    But we are. Monday (Aug 29), Artemis I is scheduled to launch from the 39B Launch Complex aboard the new SLS rocket. The Orion space capsule, built for humans. It will spend a few days travelling to the moon, and eventually enter orbit there, about 60 miles above the surface, for 6 days.

    After a mission of about 4-6 weeks -- orbiting the moon and collecting data -- Orion will spash down off the coast of Baja California.

    If all goes as expected, that will put us on track to land humans on the moon again in 3 years (2025)

    The Apollo missions followed the standard "Fast, Cheap, Good: Pick 2" rule. They were done fast and .. somewhat good, at great expense in order to beat Russia. The missions were "good enough" to get people to the moon and back safely a handful of times, but a lot of things weren't documented, a lot of parts were hacked together or custom fit for each mission. Thousands and thousands of parts were custom built in a very compartmentalized manner. many of the people who built those parts are long dead, and didn't document the process very well, if at all. The Apollo missions were incredibly expensive. the government wanted to stop throwing so much money at it, and NASA wanted to move on to other projects. In hindsight, after the issues both Apollo 13 and 15 had, we were incredibly lucky no one was killed.

    Orion and the SLS has a myriad of safetey features and redundancies that the Saturn V and Apollo modules did not. Orion and SLS has been built using the "cheap" and "good" options over the last 11 years. The solid rocket boosters are very similar to the solid rocket boosters from the space shuttle, but with an extra propellant segment (5 segments instead of 4). We're using what we've learned over the last 50 years to go back to the moon, and to build a permanent base there.

    DaiTengu

    ... This tagline's just for you.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to DaiTengu on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 12:24:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 01:15 pm

    The Apollo missions followed the standard "Fast, Cheap, Good: Pick 2" rule. They were done fast and .. somewhat good, at great expense in order to beat Russia. The missions were "good enough" to get people to the moon and back safely a handful of times, but a lot of things weren't documented, a lot of parts were hacked together or custom fit for each mission. Thousands and thousands of parts were custom built in a very compartmentalized manner. many of the people who built those parts are long dead, and didn't document the process very well, if at all. The Apollo missions were incredibly expensive. the government wanted to stop throwing so much money at it, and NASA wanted to move on to other projects. In hindsight, after the issues both Apollo 13 and 15 had, we were incredibly lucky no one was killed.

    Yes, I remember hearing part of a speech from John F. Kennedy in the early 1960s where he said he'd like the US to put a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s; I imagine NASA probably found themselves in a time crunch and were probably doing their best to accomplish that, to finally do it in 1969.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 14:56:02
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue Aug 23 2022 04:28 pm

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you. you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Many people, from many countries, have performed the laser range-finding experiment with the mirrors on the moon.

    Over time the mirrors have gotten a bit dusty, but it still can be performed today.

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?

    Not strange: It's dangerous and expensive with diminishing rewards. We don't go to the remotist parts of Antarctica very often either, for similar reasons.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #71:
    SMB = Synchronet Message Base (e.g. smblib)
    Norco, CA WX: 90.4øF, 47.0% humidity, 8 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 19:54:40
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you. you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Many people, from many countries, have performed the laser range-finding experiment with the mirrors on the moon.

    Over time the mirrors have gotten a bit dusty, but it still can be performed today.

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?

    Did you drop out of school at the 4th grade level, or was it 5th?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:18:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Aug 23 2022 04:18 pm

    would be detrimental if inhaled in larger quantities. In the long run Mars would be less harsh to live on.

    I think we're far from needing a colony on another planet right now, and even being able to get to the moon or Mars, I'm not sure we have the technology to make the environment more livable and safe for us.

    Hold up. hold up.

    Did we NEED to go to the moon? and put a 'mirror' on the moon?
    Don't you think more studies and exercises in space would make these colonies possible?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:19:39
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 10:02 pm


    all kinds of things. like we could practice colonizing on other planets. we could practice building and growing things in space.

    so you believe that we actually went there with that flimsy junk and you also believe that there's no reason to go back after 50 years.

    and you believe there's a mirror on the moon because people told you.
    you really let them mindfuck you good.

    Practice? We can practice on the Earth. Excavating, mining, building, all can be done here.

    This really is too funny!

    earth is not space dude. glad you find it funny. they have trouble growing plants in space amongst other things.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:22:02
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Wed Aug 24 2022 08:31 am

    Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-

    Why? What would we need to be doing on the moon all the time?

    Mining. The moon is rich in resources.
    Ore processing. No atmosphere makes solar energy actually useful.
    Low-G pharmacuticals. Gravity makes it harder to make some drugs.
    And more.

    The issue still is the amount of resources it takes to get off Earth and they need to figure out how to get the processed materials back on Earth (without breaking them).

    and werent they talking about extracting elements from the moon surface to create oxygen and other things we need to establish a colony?

    we could be up there perfecting and practicing for when we colonize other worlds. but nope, 'no reason'.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:22:36
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:14 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:04 am

    the thing is 98% of people don't want to think. they don't question. they

    Questioning is one thing (and is generally good), but you can also take it further, into uninformed disbelief and conspiracy territory.

    The thing is that not everyone can be experts in everything. Like many

    I just want to know. i dont like seeing holes in information.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:24:02
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:16 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?

    No, it's not strange. It's like if you have an old car that you haven't driven in 50 years, it's not likely that the engine will run without work. If they haven't taken their rockets back to the moon (and maybe haven't built new ones), then it's probably not likely that they'll work well enough to get back there.

    you just went full retard. why would i suggest using the same rockets from the 70s.

    so why havent they built new rockets?
    you dont see the holes? it all makes perfect sense to you?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:27:05
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 01:15 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:05 am

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it? ---

    But we are. Monday (Aug 29), Artemis I is scheduled to launch from the 39B Launch Complex aboard the new SLS rocket. The Orion space capsule, built for humans. It will spend a few days travelling to the moon, and eventually enter orbit there, about 60 miles above the surface, for 6 days.

    why would we even need to do that? according to these moon believers there's no reason to go back there.

    After a mission of about 4-6 weeks -- orbiting the moon and collecting data -- Orion will spash down off the coast of Baja California.

    why would it need to collect data? didn't we already do that? there's spaceman showprints on the moon to this day according to you people. apparently nothing has changed.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:28:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 12:24 pm


    Yes, I remember hearing part of a speech from John F. Kennedy in the early 1960s where he said he'd like the US to put a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s; I imagine NASA probably found themselves in a time crunch and were probably doing their best to accomplish that, to finally do it in 1969.


    presidents say all kinds of shit. that doesn't mean it happens.
    obama said we were going to cure cancer.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:28:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:56 pm

    Not strange: It's dangerous and expensive with diminishing rewards. We don't go to the remotist parts of Antarctica very often either, for similar reasons.

    why is it dangerous? according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off. there's tons of rewards and tons of things we could learn from being on the moon.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 18:54:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 08:28 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 02:56 pm

    Not strange: It's dangerous and expensive with diminishing rewards. We don't go to the remotist parts of Antarctica very often either, for similar reasons.

    why is it dangerous?

    Is that a serious question?

    according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off.

    Yes, but not without risk. A pretty significant risk.

    there's tons of rewards and tons of things we could learn from being
    on the moon.

    And we learned a lot from being there already. And we've learned a lot from the unmanned missions since. The moon isn't that diverse of an environment, so I suspect we'll quickly learn almost everything "new" there is to learn when we return, but likely not much more than we can and have learned with unmanned missions. Like Mars, we can and have learned a ton with unmanned missions.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #22:
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
    Norco, CA WX: 80.9øF, 61.0% humidity, 5 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 21:20:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 06:54 pm

    Not strange: It's dangerous and expensive with diminishing rewards. We don't go to the remotist parts of Antarctica very often either, for similar reasons.

    why is it dangerous?

    Is that a serious question?

    according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off.

    Yes, but not without risk. A pretty significant risk.


    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got people back quite easily in the 70s. it's now 2022 and it should be as easy as telling these hundreds of genius scientists that it's time to go up again.

    there's tons of rewards and tons of things we could learn from being
    on the moon.

    And we learned a lot from being there already. And we've learned a lot from the unmanned missions since. The moon isn't that diverse of an environment, so I suspect we'll quickly learn almost everything "new" there is to learn when we return, but likely not much more than we can and have learned with unmanned missions. Like Mars, we can and have learned a ton with unmanned missions.


    so apparently most people have been brainwashed
    [1] yes we did go to the moon in the 70s
    [2] there is NO reason to go back and it's too dangerous to try.

    sounds strange, doesn't it?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 20:59:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:20 pm

    [2] there is NO reason to go back and it's too dangerous to try.

    I don't think anyone has said it's too dangerous to try again. You've been the one repeatedly saying they went up with tin foil which was too dangerous and we shouldn't have been able to do so.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, August 24, 2022 23:36:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 24 2022 08:59 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:20 pm

    [2] there is NO reason to go back and it's too dangerous to try.

    I don't think anyone has said it's too dangerous to try again. You've

    been
    the one repeatedly saying they went up with tin foil which was too dangerous and we shouldn't have been able to do so.

    Nightfox

    yeah they have.
    you too have conflicting beliefs. you think we went there but 50 years later we can't pull it off. or we just shouldnt because there's no reason. there are many reasons.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 00:06:45
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 08:27 pm

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we
    can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?
    ---

    But we are. Monday (Aug 29), Artemis I is scheduled to launch from
    the 39B Launch Complex aboard the new SLS rocket. The Orion space
    capsule, built for humans. It will spend a few days travelling to the
    moon, and eventually enter orbit there, about 60 miles above the
    surface, for 6 days.

    why would we even need to do that? according to these moon believers there's no reason to go back there.

    There is a reason now. A moon base is a great jumping off point for manned expeditions to Mars and other places in the solar system. We can practice generating oxygen, water, etc. on the moon before we go to Mars and have to do it there.

    After a mission of about 4-6 weeks -- orbiting the moon and collecting
    data -- Orion will spash down off the coast of Baja California.

    why would it need to collect data? didn't we already do that? there's spaceman showprints on the moon to this day according to you people. apparently nothing has changed. ---

    Because it's a brand new spacecraft. Data will need to be collected on how it performs. It's also advanced by 50 years, so it can collect data on things we hadn't dreamed about 50 years ago.

    And I posted the damn pictures from the Apollo landing sites. Let me guess, you didn't even look because it didn't fit your narrative.

    DaiTengu

    ... The average raindrop falls at 7 miles per hour.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 00:08:18
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 08:28 pm

    why is it dangerous? according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off. there's tons of rewards and tons of things we could learn from being on the moon. ---

    Maybe if you took the time to read the rest of my message about the Artemis launch, other than the first two short sentences, you'd know.

    DaiTengu

    ... Degeneration and evolution are not the same thing.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 00:15:29
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:20 pm

    why is it dangerous?

    Is that a serious question?

    according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off.

    Yes, but not without risk. A pretty significant risk.


    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got people back quite easily in the 70s. it's now 2022 and it should be as easy as telling these hundreds of genius scientists that it's time to go up again.

    It wasn't easy. at all. Apollo 1 burst into flames during a test, 3 weeks before its launch, killing all 3 astronauts. We're insanely lucky no on else died during the Apollo missions.

    DaiTengu

    ... There's nothing moister. Than an oyster!

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 01:18:56
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 12:06 am


    why would we even need to do that? according to these moon believers there's no reason to go back there.

    There is a reason now. A moon base is a great jumping off point for manned expeditions to Mars and other places in the solar system. We can practice generating oxygen, water, etc. on the moon before we go to Mars and have to do it there.


    OHHHH.. NOW there is a reason? it just jumped up right and smaked us in the face. never was a reason before, but now there is!


    why would it need to collect data? didn't we already do that? there's spaceman showprints on the moon to this day according to you people. apparently nothing has changed. ---

    Because it's a brand new spacecraft. Data will need to be collected on how it performs. It's also advanced by 50 years, so it can collect data on things we hadn't dreamed about 50 years ago.

    so we need a manned craft to do that? i thought we had drones and robots and shit. and we havent done with with robots in 50 years too?

    And I posted the damn pictures from the Apollo landing sites. Let me guess, you didn't even look because it didn't fit your narrative.

    most nasa photos are fucked with by editing software. people like you make excuses for THAT as well.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 01:20:44
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 12:15 am

    telling these hundreds of genius scientists that it's time to go up again.

    It wasn't easy. at all. Apollo 1 burst into flames during a test, 3 weeks before its launch, killing all 3 astronauts. We're insanely lucky no on else died during the Apollo missions.


    makes no sense now that they would fake the moon landing in some form because of those failures, right. makes no sense at all.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 07:41:00
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    and werent they talking about extracting elements from the moon surface
    to create oxygen and other things we need to establish a colony?

    Yup. They had a bunch of nice ideas. Good theories based on what we actually knew. They just needed to be proven out.

    we could be up there perfecting and practicing for when we colonize
    other worlds. but nope, 'no reason'. ---

    Nope. No reason. They could better spend that money on social programs to buy votes to stay in power. They can't have the space program generate more innovation, which lead to new products that benefited people.


    ... The world is coming to an end. Please log off properly.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Dr. What@VERT/CFBBS to Boraxman on Thursday, August 25, 2022 07:41:00
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Ironic. The person complaining about the school system get basic
    science wrong.

    It's only ironic to someone who can't even do a simple experiment with a light bulb and a basketball.

    Am I reading this right?

    No. I can assure you that you aren't since you have demonstrated over many messages that you are incapable of reading something you disagree with and actually comprehending the message.


    ... Today is cancelled due to lack of interest!
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Thursday, August 25, 2022 07:18:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dr. What to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 07:41 am

    we could be up there perfecting and practicing for when we colonize other worlds. but nope, 'no reason'. ---

    Nope. No reason. They could better spend that money on social programs to buy votes to stay in power. They can't have the space program generate more innovation, which lead to new products that benefited people.


    here's a big wall of text

    Inventions we use every day that were actually created for space exploration Josie Green24/7 Wall Street









    Despite sending humans to Earth's orbit and the moon, the idea of humans surviving in outer space must seem like science fiction. Creating an environment that can sustain human life in the almost total absence of gravity, as well as no electrical outlets or oxygen, takes a lot of experimentation. That's been the job of teams of dedicated scientists who have facilitated some of the most unforgettable moments in space exploration.

    24/7 Tempo reviewed dozens of modern products that exist because of advancements in the field of space exploration. We compiled 30 common items that were invented for use in the race for space.

    Unlike modern inventions we no longer use, these inventions are employed daily to save lives, improve environmental sustainability, and keep humans healthy.

    1. Artificial limbs
    Innovations originally designed for space vehicles, including artificial muscle systems, robotic sensors, diamond-joint coatings, and temper foam, make artificial human limbs more functional, durable, comfortable and life-like.

    2. Scratch-resistant lenses
    After NASA developed scratch-resistant astronaut helmets, the agency gave a license to Foster-Grant Corporation to continue experimenting with scratch-resistant plastics, which now comprise most sunglasses and prescription lenses.

    3. Insulin pump
    Needing to monitor astronauts' vital signs in space, the Goddard Space Flight Center created monitoring systems that have been adapted to regulate blood sugar levels and release insulin as needed.

    4. Firefighting equipment
    The polymers created for use in space suits have been valuable in creating flame-retardant, heat-resistant suits for firefighters. Newer suits also feature circulating coolant to keep firefighters from succumbing to heat and advanced breathing systems modeled after astronaut life support systems.

    5. DustBusters
    During the Apollo moon landings, NASA partnered with Black & Decker to invent various battery-powered tools for drilling and taking rock samples in space. This led to the creation of the ultra-light, compact, cordless DustBuster.

    6. LASIK
    Technology used to track astronauts' eyes during periods in space in order to assess how humans' frames of reference are affected by weightlessness has become essential for use during LASIK surgery. The device tracks a patient's eye positions for the surgeon.

    7. Shock absorbers for buildings
    Shock absorbers designed to protect equipment during space shuttle launches are now used to protect bridges and buildings in areas prone to earthquakes.

    8. Solar cells
    Out of a need to power space missions, NASA has invented, and consistently improved, photovoltaic cells, sharing the advancements with other companies to accelerate the technology.

    9. Water filtration
    In the 1970s, NASA developed filtration systems that utilized iodine and cartridge filters to ensure that astronauts had access to safe, tasteless water. This filtering technology is now standard.

    10. Better tires
    After the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company invented the material used in NASA's Viking Lander parachute shrouds, the company began using it in its everyday radial tires. The material is stronger than steel and adds thousands of miles of life to the tires.

    11. Wireless headsets
    Along with two airline pilots who'd invented a prototype of a wireless headset, NASA built a light, hands-free communication system that would allow astronauts to communicate with teams on Earth. The technology was utilized in the Mercury and Apollo missions.

    12. Adjustable smoke detector
    In partnership with the Honeywell Corporation, NASA improved smoke detector technology in the 1970s, creating a unit with adjustable sensitivity to avoid constant false alarms.

    13. Invisible braces
    After NASA and Ceradyne invented a clear material that could protect radar equipment without blocking the radar's signal, Unitek Corporation/3M teamed up with Ceradyne, using the material to invent invisible braces.

    14. Freeze-dried foods
    During long space missions where every ounce of weight and inch of space aboard a shuttle must be maximized, freeze-dried foods have become a staple. Freeze-dried foods are incredibly light, and they retain their nutritional value. Once reconstituted, they are also easier and more pleasant to eat than former meal sources that were packed into squeeze tubes.

    15. Camera phones
    In the 1990s, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory invented a light, miniature imaging system that required little energy in order to take high quality photographs from space. This technology has become standard in cell phone and computer cameras.

    16. CAT scans
    NASA's digital signal technology, originally used to recreate images of the moon during the Apollo missions, is the underlying technology that makes CAT scans and MRIs possible.

    17. Baby formula
    A nutritious, algae-based vegetable oil invented by NASA scientists who were searching for a recycling agent to use during long space missions is now an additive in many infant formulas. It contains two essential fatty acids that cannot be synthesized by the human body.

    18. Lifeshears
    The pyrotechnic mechanism used to detach a space shuttle from its rocket boosters after launch is the same used in Lifeshears, but in a smaller scale. Lifeshears are a tool that can be used in emergency situations to cut into cars or collapsed buildings to rescue people trapped inside.

    19. Grooved pavement
    The requirements for landing space shuttles led NASA scientists to do extensive research on minimizing hydroplaning - when vehicles slide uncontrollably on a wet surface - on runways. They discovered that cutting grooves into runways helps channel water away from the runway and significantly reduces accidents. Many highways and airports now have grooved pavement.

    20. Air purifier
    In the sealed, artificial environment of a spacecraft, attempts to grow plants have led to ethylene buildup. NASA invented an air purifier for the International Space Station that is now used widely on Earth - everywhere from restaurants, to hospitals, to refrigerators - to remove ethylene, which hastens decay, as well as other particulates and pathogens.

    21. Memory foam
    Memory foam was originally invented as a pad for astronaut seats that would mold to their bodies during the high forces of takeoff and landing, then return to a neutral state. This eliminated the need to customize seats to individual astronauts' body sizes.

    22. Workout machines
    Because prolonged exposure to zero-gravity leads to bone loss and muscle atrophy, NASA created workout machines to enable astronauts to maintain physical fitness while in space.

    23. Home insulation
    NASA began experimenting with insulation technology for the Apollo space crafts and suits, leading to the invention of common construction insulation.

    24. Infrared ear thermometers
    Infrared ear thermometers, which allow for instant temperature capture without the risk of picking up pathogens and causing cross-infection, utilize the same technology developed for assessing the temperature of distant planets.

    25. Ice-resistant airplanes
    Ice is a real threat for shuttles in space, and NASA has devised multiple electronic solutions to prevent ice formation on spacecrafts, some of which are now used on commercial aircraft.

    26. Portable computer
    The first portable computer, the Grid Compass, was used on multiple shuttle missions in the 1980s. Nicknamed SPOC (Shuttle Portable On-Board Computer), the computer could communicate with onboard devices and was used to launch satellites off space shuttles.

    27. LEDs
    Intended for use to help in growing plants aboard space shuttles, NASA's LED technology has been utilized in the development of LED medical devices that relax muscles and relieve pain in soldiers, cancer patients, and those with Parkinson's disease.

    28. 3D food printing
    The ability to cook food on long space missions is no longer impossible with the invention of 3D food printers. This technology is now being refined for commercial use for the production of chocolates and other confections as well as to create nutritious foods for diabetics and others with specific dietary needs.

    29. Computer mouse
    While searching for a way to increase interaction with onboard computers and allow users to perform tasks like manipulate data, NASA and Stanford researchers developed the first mouse.
    (not sure if this one mouse one is correct --jas)

    30. Athletic shoes
    A shock-absorbent rubber molding designed for astronauts' helmets inspired what is now a common feature in the soles of modern athletic shoes.

    --snip---

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/07/08/space-race-inventions-we-use-every-day-were-created-for-space-exploration/39580591/

    nope, no reason to go back to the moon! no reason at all!
    i hope some of you are seeing what i mean and trying to open up your mind a bit. there are many strange things that do not make sense with what nasa is doing. overwritten video, missing data, conflicting accounts in interviews.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Thursday, August 25, 2022 07:22:37
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Thu Aug 25 2022 07:41 am

    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Ironic. The person complaining about the school system get basic science wrong.

    It's only ironic to someone who can't even do a simple experiment with a light bulb and a basketball.

    Am I reading this right?

    No. I can assure you that you aren't since you have demonstrated over many messages that you are incapable of reading something you disagree with and actually comprehending the message.


    lets all watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz01pTvuMa0&ab_channel=NationalScienceTeachingAssociation

    https://preview.tinyurl.com/2jhpfemu
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 10:13:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 01:18 am

    There is a reason now. A moon base is a great jumping off point for
    manned expeditions to Mars and other places in the solar system. We
    can practice generating oxygen, water, etc. on the moon before we go
    to Mars and have to do it there.


    OHHHH.. NOW there is a reason? it just jumped up right and smaked us in the face. never was a reason before, but now there is!

    Yes, that's how progress works. We didn't have the technology, knowledge, or ability to send a manned mission to Mars. Now we're almost to that point, and using the moon as a jumping-off point seemed like a good idea, and a nice place for running experiements needed for a manned Mars mission.

    As mentioned previously we stopped going to the moon because:

    1. it was expensive as hell.
    2. it was dangerous - it was only a matter of time before someone was going to die (which I explained already)
    3. we accomplished everything we wanted to at the time.

    Basically the risks/cost outweighed the reward.


    The reasons we're going back:

    1. thoughts were thought, ideas were had, and new experiments were divised. Things people had not thought of 50 years ago are now possible!

    2. Technology has advanced 50 years. it is now safer to send manned missions to the moon (we hope!). we have things like launch abort systems and many new safety systems!

    The rewards now outweigh the risks, and people have decided it's worth throwing money at.


    Because it's a brand new spacecraft. Data will need to be collected on
    how it performs. It's also advanced by 50 years, so it can collect
    data on things we hadn't dreamed about 50 years ago.

    so we need a manned craft to do that? i thought we had drones and robots and shit. and we havent done with with robots in 50 years too?

    The launch on monday is not manned. the data collected will tell us how the craft performs, and whether or not it's safe to actually put humans into it for a flight.

    And I posted the damn pictures from the Apollo landing sites. Let me
    guess, you didn't even look because it didn't fit your narrative.

    most nasa photos are fucked with by editing software. people like you make excuses for THAT as well. ---

    cleanup and color correction, sure. They're not drawing fake paths or putting fake landers on images though. Photographers fuck with wedding photos too, are you going to say those are fake?






    DaiTengu

    ... There is an order of things in this universe. Apollo, stardate 3468.1.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 10:26:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 01:20 am

    It wasn't easy. at all. Apollo 1 burst into flames during a test, 3
    weeks before its launch, killing all 3 astronauts. We're insanely
    lucky no on else died during the Apollo missions.

    makes no sense now that they would fake the moon landing in some form because of those failures, right. makes no sense at all. ---

    To the more conspiratorially minded people, it may. After spending all that money and getting to that point, it was probably easier/cheaper to actually continue on with the missions rather than try and switch gears, create a giant coverup, and "fake" the moon landings. Tens of thousands of people would have to keep that secret, and data would continue to have to be fabricated to this day.

    DaiTengu

    ... Spaceballs: The Tagline

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 08:41:39
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Wed Aug 24 2022 11:36 pm

    you too have conflicting beliefs. you think we went there but 50 years later we can't pull it off. or we just shouldnt because there's no reason. there are many reasons.

    I think the main reason we went there the first time was that we were in a space race with Russia and we wanted to prove we could do it.

    And I never said we can't pull it off, or even that we shouldn't. I just don't think we've had a big need to go back to the moon.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 10:45:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:13 am


    OHHHH.. NOW there is a reason? it just jumped up right and smaked us in the face. never was a reason before, but now there is!

    Yes, that's how progress works. We didn't have the technology, knowledge,

    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 10:50:28
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:26 am

    makes no sense now that they would fake the moon landing in some form because of those failures, right. makes no sense at all. ---

    To the more conspiratorially minded people, it may. After spending all

    i'm not into conspiracies. i just see a lot of holes in information and odd things. you are blindly putting faith, believing people took that junk, went to the moon, landed and did all that junk and made it back alive. and nasa people were on camera saying we could not do it again if we wanted to.

    and they said the tapes were wiped and the telemetry data was wiped. the most important fucking thing in their lifetimes and they wrote over the tapes.
    There's morons here saying that makes perfect sense and why wouldn't they. maybe benny hill was on or hee haw and they needed a tape in a pinch to record it.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 13:05:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:45 am

    Yes, that's how progress works. We didn't have the technology,
    knowledge,

    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling

    Yes, progress. Technology has progressed over 50 years. Our knowledge of the solar system has progressed (to the point where space mining might be feasable sometime in the next 50 years), our desire to explore more places outside of low earth orbit has progressed.

    DaiTengu

    ... Some people confuse boredom with security.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From fusion@VERT/CFBBS to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 14:54:00
    On 24 Aug 2022, MRO said the following...

    maybe we should go up there and dust off the mirrors. oh wait, we can't pull off what we did 50 years ago. that's strange, isn't it?

    we also don't have programmers talented enough to pull off replacing the (same era) IRS tax systems. advancement doesn't necessarily mean improvement/ease.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 13:55:44
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:50 am

    To the more conspiratorially minded people, it may. After spending
    all

    i'm not into conspiracies. i just see a lot of holes in information and odd things. you are blindly putting faith, believing people took that junk, went to the moon, landed and did all that junk and made it back alive. and nasa people were on camera saying we could not do it again if we wanted to.

    Context matters. We could not do it again with the same equipment if we wanted to, because we don't have the capability to recreate that equipment. Things were poorly documented. For example, The hundreds holes for the injector plate on the F-1 rocket engine were hand-drilled. Many bits and pieces were assembled like that, and the people that have the knowledge to recreate those pieces are either long dead, or have forgotten most of it. reverse engineering 50+ year old technology to recreate it is a step backwards. That said, a group of young NASA engineers did reverse engineer the F-1 engine about 10 years ago. That's where they found the hand-drilled injector plates.

    Rocket technology has advanced a lot since then. Much more complex, multi-stage combustion chambers provide a greater thrust-to-weight ratio. The Saturn V was powered by 5 F1 engines, providing 7.5 million pounds of thrust at sea level,

    The SLS that's scheduled to launch monday is powered by 4 RS-254 engines, along with the solid rocket boosters, that give it 8.8 million pounds of thrust at takeoff. The SLS can carry over 50% more weight to the moon that the Saturn V could, all while being smaller and lighter. The price tag on the SLS's full develpment is about 1/2 of what we spent on development of the Saturn V, ($23 billion vs $51.8 billion adjusted for inflation).

    When it comes down to it, you're arguing semantics. The evidence that we went to the moon, landed people there and brought them home is overwhelming. The "holes in information" and "odd things" have logical, reasonable explanations. Of course you'll say they aren't "reasonable" because you simply don't want to believe it. You want to believe that there's been a 50 year conspiracy, and that governments and space agencies all over the world have kept the secret that no one landed on the moon. That thousands and thousands of people who worked on these projects (and still work on these projects) all over the world kept that secret. That, somehow, is far more believable to you.

    No, you're not a conspiracy theorist at all.

    DaiTengu

    ... Do something unusual today. Pay a bill.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From faeempress@VERT/KUMPUTE to Gamgee on Thursday, August 25, 2022 11:28:00
    (Artemis II) will do the same (a 10 day mission). Sometime in 2025, a 4-person crew (Artemis III) will land 2 people (one of them a woman) on
    First woman on the moon! Awesome! I love it!



    ... Great minds think alike; small minds run together

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 12:06:37
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Wed Aug 24 2022 09:20 pm

    Not strange: It's dangerous and expensive with diminishing rewards. We don't go to the remotist parts of Antarctica very often either, for similar reasons.

    why is it dangerous?

    Is that a serious question?

    according to you guys we have the technology to pull it off.

    Yes, but not without risk. A pretty significant risk.


    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got people back quite easily in the 70s.

    Have you not seen movie: Apollo 13? It was anything but "easy".
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 14:32:00
    DaiTengu wrote to MRO <=-

    i'm not into conspiracies. i just see a lot of holes in information and odd things. you are blindly putting faith, believing people took that junk, went to the moon, landed and did all that junk and made it back alive. and nasa people were on camera saying we could not do it again if we wanted to.

    Context matters. We could not do it again with the same
    equipment if we wanted to, because we don't have the capability
    to recreate that equipment. Things were poorly documented. For
    example, The hundreds holes for the injector plate on the F-1
    rocket engine were hand-drilled. Many bits and pieces were
    assembled like that, and the people that have the knowledge to
    recreate those pieces are either long dead, or have forgotten
    most of it. reverse engineering 50+ year old technology to
    recreate it is a step backwards. That said, a group of young
    NASA engineers did reverse engineer the F-1 engine about 10 years
    ago. That's where they found the hand-drilled injector plates.

    Rocket technology has advanced a lot since then. Much more
    complex, multi-stage combustion chambers provide a greater thrust-to-weight ratio. The Saturn V was powered by 5 F1 engines, providing 7.5 million pounds of thrust at sea level,

    The SLS that's scheduled to launch monday is powered by 4 RS-254
    engines, along with the solid rocket boosters, that give it 8.8
    million pounds of thrust at takeoff. The SLS can carry over 50%
    more weight to the moon that the Saturn V could, all while being
    smaller and lighter. The price tag on the SLS's full develpment
    is about 1/2 of what we spent on development of the Saturn V,
    ($23 billion vs $51.8 billion adjusted for inflation).

    When it comes down to it, you're arguing semantics. The evidence
    that we went to the moon, landed people there and brought them
    home is overwhelming. The "holes in information" and "odd
    things" have logical, reasonable explanations. Of course you'll
    say they aren't "reasonable" because you simply don't want to
    believe it. You want to believe that there's been a 50 year
    conspiracy, and that governments and space agencies all over the
    world have kept the secret that no one landed on the moon. That
    thousands and thousands of people who worked on these projects
    (and still work on these projects) all over the world kept that
    secret. That, somehow, is far more believable to you.

    No, you're not a conspiracy theorist at all.

    Well written. I think it's pretty obvious to all of us participating in
    this discussion, that 'MRO' is indeed a conspiracy nut-job, and that
    he's probably laughing his ass off as he trolls everybody to drag this
    out longer.

    It's not possible for a (semi) mature adult to be as stupid as he is attempting to pass himself off as. He won't listen and we're wasting
    our time trying to convince him of anything. Suggest we all stop
    feeding the troll...



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Thursday, August 25, 2022 16:12:34
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 02:32 pm

    Well written. I think it's pretty obvious to all of us participating in this discussion, that 'MRO' is indeed a conspiracy nut-job, and that
    he's probably laughing his ass off as he trolls everybody to drag this out longer.

    The thought that he was trolling us has crossed my mind as I was writing out paragraphs worth of information, but I got to flex a few brain muscles I hadn't used in awhile, so it felt nice.

    It's not possible for a (semi) mature adult to be as stupid as he is attempting to pass himself off as. He won't listen and we're wasting
    our time trying to convince him of anything. Suggest we all stop
    feeding the troll...

    Oh it is. I've had conversations with actual adult humans who really believe the earth is flat. Who believe that space doesn't exist, and no matter what information I pepper them with, they claim it's either "faked" or "done some other way" or that I'm "lying".

    I recently did a youtube video where I reacted to someone claiming the earth was flat because of ... radio waves.

    https://youtu.be/jZzLBwOFi0E

    DaiTengu

    ... I must follow them. I am their leader.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Thursday, August 25, 2022 14:21:42
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 02:32 pm

    It's not possible for a (semi) mature adult to be as stupid as he is attempting to pass himself off as. He won't listen and we're wasting
    our time trying to convince him of anything. Suggest we all stop
    feeding the troll...

    I don't think I've ever seen anyone convince MRO of anything. The longer you try to debate with him, the higher the chances of him going off and calling you a retard, autistic, or similar. Then he'll likely say something like he's tired of talking about it and wants to move on.

    He has talked about this fake moon landing conspiracy before, and it's all the same stuff again this time. I think it has dragged out longer this time than last time.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 15:05:56
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Thu Aug 25 2022 04:12 pm

    I recently did a youtube video where I reacted to someone claiming the earth was flat because of ... radio waves.

    https://youtu.be/jZzLBwOFi0E

    People who come up with that kind of reasoning seem to have the thinking that if they don't understand something, then it must not be true, and their misunderstanding and misinterpretation of reality leads them to believe what they believe.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thursday, August 25, 2022 21:59:37
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 08:41 am

    I think the main reason we went there the first time was that we were in a space race with Russia and we wanted to prove we could do it.

    so that was a good reason?

    I just
    don't think we've had a big need to go back to the moon.

    but if we need to measure dicks with russia, we should, right?

    it's not because of all the innovations from space development? they dont mean anything?
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 22:01:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 01:55 pm

    odd things. you are blindly putting faith, believing people took that junk, went to the moon, landed and did all that junk and made it back alive. and nasa people were on camera saying we could not do it again if we wanted to.

    Context matters. We could not do it again with the same equipment if we wanted to, because we don't have the capability to recreate that equipment.

    there was no changing of context. they said they lost the telemetry data and could not do it again if they wanted to.

    that's another thing you moon believers overlook and give a pass too. one of the most important things and they lost the data. and overwrote the video tapes.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Thursday, August 25, 2022 22:05:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 12:06 pm


    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got people back quite easily in the 70s.

    Have you not seen movie: Apollo 13? It was anything but "easy".

    no, i dont get my information from movies meant for entertainment, and neither should you.

    if they did get people there and back it was relatively easy considering the techonology and hardware. they should have had a very narrow chance of pulling it off.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thursday, August 25, 2022 22:06:37
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 03:05 pm

    People who come up with that kind of reasoning seem to have the thinking that if they don't understand something, then it must not be true, and their misunderstanding and misinterpretation of reality leads them to believe what they believe.

    that's how most people's brains work.
    each of us are in our own reality.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Thursday, August 25, 2022 21:06:00
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Well written. I think it's pretty obvious to all of us participating in this discussion, that 'MRO' is indeed a conspiracy nut-job, and that
    he's probably laughing his ass off as he trolls everybody to drag this
    out longer.

    The thought that he was trolling us has crossed my mind as I was
    writing out paragraphs worth of information, but I got to flex a
    few brain muscles I hadn't used in awhile, so it felt nice.

    Understood, and appreciated.

    It's not possible for a (semi) mature adult to be as stupid as he is attempting to pass himself off as. He won't listen and we're wasting
    our time trying to convince him of anything. Suggest we all stop
    feeding the troll...

    Oh it is. I've had conversations with actual adult humans who
    really believe the earth is flat. Who believe that space doesn't
    exist, and no matter what information I pepper them with, they
    claim it's either "faked" or "done some other way" or that I'm
    "lying".

    I recently did a youtube video where I reacted to someone
    claiming the earth was flat because of ... radio waves.

    https://youtu.be/jZzLBwOFi0E

    Wow. Staggering. Just can't really comprehend that somebody is
    actually that stupid and can still breathe.

    Thanks. ;-)



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Thursday, August 25, 2022 21:07:00
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It's not possible for a (semi) mature adult to be as stupid as he is attempting to pass himself off as. He won't listen and we're wasting
    our time trying to convince him of anything. Suggest we all stop
    feeding the troll...

    I don't think I've ever seen anyone convince MRO of anything.
    The longer you try to debate with him, the higher the chances of
    him going off and calling you a retard, autistic, or similar.
    Then he'll likely say something like he's tired of talking about
    it and wants to move on.

    Yep, same thing I've seen from him.

    He has talked about this fake moon landing conspiracy before, and
    it's all the same stuff again this time. I think it has dragged
    out longer this time than last time.

    Probably so, there have been a few more people involved so he's had a
    harder time "convincing" anybody. LOL.



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Thursday, August 25, 2022 23:58:25
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Digital Man on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:05 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 12:06 pm


    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got people back quite easily in the 70s.

    Have you not seen movie: Apollo 13? It was anything but "easy".

    no, i dont get my information from movies meant for entertainment, and neither should you.

    The movie was based on the non-fiction book ("Lost Moon") written by the commander of the Apollo 13 mission and the major events in the film are undisputed facts. Going to and landing on the moon was not "easy" by any measurement.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #4:
    David St. Hubbins: He died in a bizarre gardening accident...
    Norco, CA WX: 70.2øF, 84.0% humidity, 0 mph SE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From Jared@VERT/JUMPLEFT to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 08:31:21
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 24 2022 20:27:05

    about 60 miles above the surface, for 6 days.
    why would we even need to do that? according to these moon believers there's no reason to go back there.

    One of the primary goals of the Artemis 1 mission is identifying exact locations for the future permanent lunar colony. A 'dry-run' so to speak for testing systems, operations and the logistics of building and operating a remote outpost. The ISS has taught us lots over the 20 years it's been in LEO, but there's a lot we won't know until we actually try building a colony.

    why would it need to collect data? didn't we already do that? there's spaceman showprints on the moon to this day
    according
    to you people. apparently nothing has changed.

    Despite going to the moon alot for Apollo; there was a lot we didn't do. Apollo missions focused on the near-side of the moon, the one that's always facing us - the south pole has some very interesting features including what appears to be large metal deposits suitable for mining.

    We're going back. This time to stay.

    Jared

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ It's just a jump to the left (and a step the right)...
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Friday, August 26, 2022 03:16:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 11:58 pm

    The movie was based on the non-fiction book ("Lost Moon") written by the commander of the Apollo 13 mission and the major events in the film are undisputed facts. Going to and landing on the moon was not "easy" by any

    books based on real events and movies stretch the truth and add things for entertainment. they should be treated as entertainment.

    regardless, there is no reason that we didn't send people back to the moon in all of that time. it should be a simple operation by now. it shouldn't be dangerous. we could have benefitted from many advancements.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Jared on Friday, August 26, 2022 03:56:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Jared to MRO on Fri Aug 26 2022 08:31 am

    Despite going to the moon alot for Apollo; there was a lot we didn't do. Apollo missions focused on the near-side of the moon, the one that's always facing us - the south pole has some very interesting features including what appears to be large metal deposits suitable for mining.

    We're going back. This time to stay.

    now that we finally have the technology to do so.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 07:22:00
    MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-

    People who come up with that kind of reasoning seem to have the thinking that if they don't understand something, then it must not be true, and their misunderstanding and misinterpretation of reality leads them to believe what they believe.

    that's how most people's brains work.

    Wrong.

    You think that because........ you're stupid.

    each of us are in our own reality.

    Well, you certainly are, but where you are is not.... reality.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 07:26:00
    MRO wrote to Digital Man <=-

    The movie was based on the non-fiction book ("Lost Moon") written by the commander of the Apollo 13 mission and the major events in the film are undisputed facts. Going to and landing on the moon was not "easy" by any

    books based on real events and movies stretch the truth and add
    things for entertainment. they should be treated as
    entertainment.

    regardless, there is no reason that we didn't send people back to
    the moon in all of that time. it should be a simple operation by
    now. it shouldn't be dangerous. we could have benefitted from
    many advancements.

    Your simple and slow brain doesn't understand big-picture kinds of
    things. Two of the main reasons we haven't been back are POLITICS and MONEY/COSTS. You can't build and operate rockets with no funding,
    doofus.


    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Friday, August 26, 2022 08:48:45
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 09:06 pm

    I recently did a youtube video where I reacted to someone
    claiming the earth was flat because of ... radio waves.

    https://youtu.be/jZzLBwOFi0E

    Wow. Staggering. Just can't really comprehend that somebody is
    actually that stupid and can still breathe.

    There's a couple flat earthers that argued with me in the comments section. It was hilarious.

    DaiTengu

    ... Old fishermen never die, they just smell that way.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:08:58
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Thu Aug 25 2022 10:01 pm

    Context matters. We could not do it again with the same equipment if
    we wanted to, because we don't have the capability to recreate that
    equipment.

    there was no changing of context. they said they lost the telemetry data and could not do it again if they wanted to.

    that's another thing you moon believers overlook and give a pass too. one of the most important things and they lost the data. and overwrote the video tapes. ---

    Yeah, that sucks. It's not as surprising as you make it out to be, however. It wasn't "one of the most important things". the telemetry data was not required to go back to the moon (or else we wouldn't be flying Artemis on Monday, or whenever if finally launches).

    the recording canisters were expensive and sometimes hard to come by. They were frequently re-used.

    While I wish they had treated the Apollo engineering telemetry like movie studios treated cellulose film, they didn't. We're stuck with grainy footage broadcast over TV.

    DaiTengu

    ... There's never a good time to score an own goal.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Digital Man on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:15:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 11:58 pm



    The movie was based on the non-fiction book ("Lost Moon") written by the commander of the Apollo 13 mission and the major events in the film are undisputed facts. Going to and landing on the moon was not "easy" by any measurement. --

    "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too"

    - John F Kennedy Sept 12. 1962

    DaiTengu

    ... If you don't go to people's funerals, they won't come to yours.

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to DaiTengu on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:03:50
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Fri Aug 26 2022 08:48 am

    There's a couple flat earthers that argued with me in the comments section. It was hilarious.

    Several years ago, there was a guy on AgoraNet who asked what people thought about flat earth theory (he seemed to be a flat earther). Nobody else agreed, and he quickly stopped posting about it.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:09:20
    On 8/24/22 19:20, MRO wrote:

    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got
    people back quite easily in the 70s. it's now 2022 and it should
    be as easy as telling these hundreds of genius scientists that
    it's time to go up again.

    LOL... easily... that's some funny shit right there.

    https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/319/remembering-test-pilots-who-lost-their-lives/

    https://www.space.com/26593-apollo-11-moon-landing-scariest-moments.html

    https://www.space.com/17250-apollo-13-facts.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apollo_missions
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:10:26
    On 8/24/22 21:36, MRO wrote:

    yeah they have.
    you too have conflicting beliefs. you think we went there but 50 years later we
    can't pull it off. or we just shouldnt because there's no reason. there are many reasons.

    Then you should be able to raise the funding for it, without issue.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:24:49
    On 8/25/22 20:05, MRO wrote:
    they should have had a very narrow chance of pulling it off.

    Aircraft don't really exist... people don't go up in the sky... it's all
    a conspiracy.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 12:26:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Aug 25 2022 09:59 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Aug 25 2022 08:41 am

    I think the main reason we went there the first time was that we were in space race with Russia and we wanted to prove we could do it.

    so that was a good reason?

    I just
    don't think we've had a big need to go back to the moon.

    but if we need to measure dicks with russia, we should, right?

    it's not because of all the innovations from space development? they dont me

    In retrospective, dick measuring is too simplistic a term for the space race.

    Launching Sputnik proved the Soviets could also launch intercontinental missiles. This made having bombers carrying nukes less critical. Any
    increase in space technology equated to some advantage that could be
    exploited in war. A base on the moon that could sustain itself would negate mutual assured destruction because it is offworld. The ability to build space stations could equate to building orbital launch platforms that would give
    the enemy less of a chance to reciprocate or counter attack.

    The only reason the Soviets built the Buran, their version of a space
    shuttle, is because some scientists snow-jobbed some generals into believing
    a shuttle could carry a bombload, dip into the atmosphere to drop them, then p ower up and climb back into orbit. About ten years ago Russia admitted to pla cing a 23mm auto cannon on their Salyut 3 station. That was a fine example
    of why it was in the US' best interest to be ahead of the Russians in the
    space race.

    ---
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  • From Jared@VERT/JUMPLEFT to MRO on Friday, August 26, 2022 08:45:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Dr. What on Thu Aug 25 2022 07:18:49

    nope, no reason to go back to the moon! no reason at all!

    The list of potentials this time is *huge* too; over the last few years the developments in aerospace have really pushed the boundaries - by freeing up what was becomming routine (even for human rated flight) and outsourcing it, NASA has been able to push ahead with what it should be doing - pushing the boundaries further.

    I foresee the major developments coming from a permenently occupied lunar colony is seeing space opening more to folks who aren't professional astronauts - a lunar colony will need much the same things as the bases we operate in Antartica, folks will need feeding, waste will need processing, buildings will need building, mining for water and resources will need to occur, communications, networking and tech support will play massive roles - adapting what has been the domain of highly trained folks is where we'll see the most developments.

    Even on Artemis 1 several radiation vests are being tested which have obvious medical applications for imaging and perhaps more targeted cancer treatments into the future. 3d printed buildings made from some kind of concrete formed from the regolith or other resources I think we'll see trickle down to construction here on earth too.

    Taking a step back from just the Artemis programme; the private sector isn't far behind too with a version of Starship planned for lunar landings - still potentially taking humans before Artemis 3 is ready.

    Sure NASA has made some *interesting* decisions; scaling back the gateway platform doesn't make sense to me; but at least it's still part of the plan in some form. SLS in itself still needs proving, it's been a long time since the companies involved have done something on this scale, and while they have before, it's a whole new generation of engineers and ideas that haven't.

    I never thought I'd have an opportunity to live off world in my lifetime. That may be about to change - that is exciting.

    Jared

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ It's just a jump to the left (and a step the right)...
  • From Jared@VERT/JUMPLEFT to DaiTengu on Friday, August 26, 2022 09:12:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Thu Aug 25 2022 16:12:34

    I recently did a youtube video where I reacted to someone claiming the earth was flat because of ... radio waves.

    *facepalm*

    Jared

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ It's just a jump to the left (and a step the right)...
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Friday, August 26, 2022 22:40:23
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Fri Aug 26 2022 09:08 am

    data and could not do it again if they wanted to.

    that's another thing you moon believers overlook and give a pass too. one of the most important things and they lost the data. and overwrote the video tapes. ---

    Yeah, that sucks. It's not as surprising as you make it out to be, however. It wasn't "one of the most important things". the telemetry data was not required to go back to the moon (or else we wouldn't be flying Artemis on Monday, or whenever if finally launches).

    see, you're making excuses. i'm saying going to the moon was one of the most important things. they lost everything. and you are making excuses again about the data. people from nasa said that data being lost was a bad thing in interviews.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Friday, August 26, 2022 22:42:03
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to DaiTengu on Fri Aug 26 2022 09:03 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Fri Aug 26 2022 08:48 am

    There's a couple flat earthers that argued with me in the comments section. It was hilarious.

    Several years ago, there was a guy on AgoraNet who asked what people thought about flat earth theory (he seemed to be a flat earther). Nobody else agreed, and he quickly stopped posting about it.

    Nightfox

    there's nothing wrong with entertaining and exploring these ideas.
    by nature though, humans are bullies and if you aren't one of them you need to be pushed out.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Friday, August 26, 2022 22:42:42
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Fri Aug 26 2022 09:09 am

    On 8/24/22 19:20, MRO wrote:

    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got
    people back quite easily in the 70s. it's now 2022 and it should
    be as easy as telling these hundreds of genius scientists that
    it's time to go up again.

    LOL... easily... that's some funny shit right there.


    none of the sites you listed are notable.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Friday, August 26, 2022 22:43:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Fri Aug 26 2022 09:10 am

    On 8/24/22 21:36, MRO wrote:

    yeah they have.
    you too have conflicting beliefs. you think we went there but 50 years later we
    can't pull it off. or we just shouldnt because there's no reason. there are many reasons.

    Then you should be able to raise the funding for it, without issue.

    sure, i'm all about fund raising, i'll just go do that.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Saturday, August 27, 2022 13:48:25
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Fri Aug 26 2022 10:40 pm

    Yeah, that sucks. It's not as surprising as you make it out to be,
    however. It wasn't "one of the most important things". the telemetry
    data was not required to go back to the moon (or else we wouldn't be
    flying Artemis on Monday, or whenever if finally launches).

    see, you're making excuses. i'm saying going to the moon was one of the most important things. they lost everything. and you are making excuses again about the data. people from nasa said that data being lost was a bad thing in interviews. ---

    It _was_ one of the most important things. The "Telemetry data" (which is mostly engineering video, not really facts/fictures/ sensor readings/etc/) was part of a giant mountain of data and information collected during the Apollo missions.

    "everything" was not lost/destroyed/overwritten. Just some stuff that, in hindsight, really should have been kept.

    It was absolutely a bad thing that it isn't available anymore. BUT it's not hte end of the world, and it doesn't even crack the top 10 reasons why we haven't gone back to the moon in the last 50 years.

    DaiTengu

    ... A feature is a bug with seniority.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Saturday, August 27, 2022 23:01:10
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Sat Aug 27 2022 01:48 pm

    see, you're making excuses. i'm saying going to the moon was one of the most important things. they lost everything. and you are making excuses again about the data. people from nasa said that data being lost was a bad thing in interviews. ---

    It _was_ one of the most important things. The "Telemetry data" (which is mostly engineering video, not really facts/fictures/ sensor readings/etc/) was part of a giant mountain of data and information collected during the Apollo missions.

    "everything" was not lost/destroyed/overwritten. Just some stuff that, in hindsight, really should have been kept.

    It was absolutely a bad thing that it isn't available anymore. BUT it's not

    from the video i watched that was a bit dated, i dont remember when the video was from, but the guy wasnt wearing 70's or 80's clothes, the nasa scientist said they lost the telemetry data and other stuff and they could not go back the moon at this point if they wanted. that's a big thing.

    like i said nasa did a lot of weird things. eradicating evidence is one of them.

    hte end of the world, and it doesn't even crack the top 10 reasons why we haven't gone back to the moon in the last 50 years.

    there is no reason. other than we couldn't until now.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sunday, August 28, 2022 10:30:00
    from the video i watched that was a bit dated, i dont remember when the video s from, but the guy wasnt wearing 70's or 80's clothes, the nasa scientist sai
    they lost the telemetry data and other stuff and they could not go back the mo
    at this point if they wanted. that's a big thing.

    I think they were using that excuse during certain points in time when the government didn't want to spend much/any money on the space program. So,
    when someone asked, they would make up an excuse and claim they could not go back if they wanted.

    As a lot of what they would have used would have been physics and
    calculations. Claiming that these things were "lost," to me, would mean
    that no one they had around was smart enough to interpret them and/or
    recreate them. If the claim was true, that is.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Dude! We have the power supreme!" - Butthead

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Hustler@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Monday, August 29, 2022 07:41:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Thu Aug 25 2022 02:21 pm

    He has talked about this fake moon landing conspiracy before, and it's all the same stuff again this time. I think it has dragged out longer this time than last time.

    The thing is if you use a computer the technology all started with NASA and Appolo. So I guess we all use "fake" PC's. huh??

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Monday, August 29, 2022 10:23:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Aug 26 2022 10:42 pm

    Several years ago, there was a guy on AgoraNet who asked what people
    thought about flat earth theory (he seemed to be a flat earther).

    there's nothing wrong with entertaining and exploring these ideas.

    For comedy purposes, maybe.. We know the earth isn't flat, so there isn't much point in seriously trying to argue that the earth is flat.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Hustler on Monday, August 29, 2022 10:26:59
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Hustler to Nightfox on Mon Aug 29 2022 07:41 am

    He has talked about this fake moon landing conspiracy before, and
    it's all the same stuff again this time. I think it has dragged out
    longer this time than last time.

    The thing is if you use a computer the technology all started with NASA and Appolo. So I guess we all use "fake" PC's. huh??

    Huh? As far as I know, computer technology didn't start with NASA.. For modern computers, Alan Turing has been considered one of the first people to contribute ideas, with his Turing Machine. And I just checked online (as I don't remember all the details), and it looks like the first programmable computer was the 'Colossus', in 1943.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Hustler on Monday, August 29, 2022 17:02:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Hustler to Nightfox on Mon Aug 29 2022 07:41 am


    The thing is if you use a computer the technology all started with NASA and Appolo. So I guess we all use "fake" PC's. huh??

    no, that's not how computers started.
    I listed all the technology we created due to space exploration.
    it was a retort to people saying we had no reason to go to space again.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Monday, August 29, 2022 17:16:54
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Aug 29 2022 10:23 am

    Several years ago, there was a guy on AgoraNet who asked what people
    thought about flat earth theory (he seemed to be a flat earther).

    there's nothing wrong with entertaining and exploring these ideas.

    For comedy purposes, maybe.. We know the earth isn't flat, so there isn't much point in seriously trying to argue that the earth is flat.

    no, not for comedy. you see how people blindly believe incorrect 'facts' that are regurgitated.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to MRO on Monday, August 29, 2022 19:11:00
    we can't cure any diseases. we can't end war. we can't end world hunger. No way can we change ourselves or another planet. we are too stupid.
    ---

    Isnt that the truth!!! Too stupid and too Greedy!!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... 640K ought to be enough for anybody. -Bill Gates, 1981.
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:03:21
    On 8/26/22 20:42, MRO wrote:
    there shouldnt be significant risk. we went to the moon and got
    people back quite easily in the 70s. it's now 2022 and it should
    be as easy as telling these hundreds of genius scientists that
    it's time to go up again.

    LOL... easily... that's some funny shit right there.

    none of the sites you listed are notable.

    Feel free to cite your own reputable sources, and they should probably
    include multiple insider leakers that can be confirmed to have worked
    for NASA and/or the federal government at the time.

    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence required.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to MRO on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 14:47:24
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Hustler on Mon Aug 29 2022 05:02 pm

    it was a retort to people saying we had no reason to go to space again.

    I don't recall seeing anyone here say that.

    What I *have* seen said is that we haven't had significant reason to put humans on the Moon again; reasons significant enough to overcome the cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to Mars and the Moon and humans to the ISS.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #46:
    One day I feel I'm on top of the world, and the next it's falling in on me Norco, CA WX: 95.7øF, 32.0% humidity, 11 mph SE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 17:10:39
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Tue Aug 30 2022 12:03 pm


    Feel free to cite your own reputable sources, and they should probably include multiple insider leakers that can be confirmed to have worked
    for NASA and/or the federal government at the time.

    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence required.

    it's not my job to educate the ignorant.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:39:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Hustler on Mon Aug 29 2022 05:02 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Hustler to Nightfox on Mon Aug 29 2022 07:41 am


    The thing is if you use a computer the technology all started with NASA Appolo. So I guess we all use "fake" PC's. huh??

    no, that's not how computers started.
    I listed all the technology we created due to space exploration.
    it was a retort to people saying we had no reason to go to space again.

    Computers pre-existed the space program. The push miniaturize them was due to
    the confines of a space capsule. Computers were big, and could fill entire buildings. Discrete transistors were common up until the 1970's, because the economy of scale wasn't there yet. For example, an operational
    amplifier IC has 32 transistors. If a single transistor failed, the supply chain guy would freak out because replacing that one part was perceived as throwing away 32 working transistors. Of course, they're all in the same package and are useless, but the procuremnt folk didn't see it that way. Moore's Law came out in 1965, yet folk didn't buy into it until engineers needed to stuff more transistors into smaller containers.

    The Apollo guidance computer could do the work of system that would've been cl ose to the size of a car. By using IC's they put that all in a case the size of a large desktop tower. 10 years later the guys at Intel and Texas Instruments shrunk it so it could be done in a tabletop calculator.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 23:50:36
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Tracker1 on Tue Aug 30 2022 05:10 pm

    Feel free to cite your own reputable sources, and they should probably
    include multiple insider leakers that can be confirmed to have worked
    for NASA and/or the federal government at the time.

    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence
    required.

    it's not my job to educate the ignorant.

    Odd, a lot of us have spent significant time trying to educate you. I think the fact of the matter is you have no reputable sources, and you can't back up your claims with anything other than "it looks fishy to me"

    DaiTengu

    ... The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 03:17:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue Aug 30 2022 11:50 pm

    Odd, a lot of us have spent significant time trying to educate you. I think the fact of the matter is you have no reputable sources, and you can't back up your claims with anything other than "it looks fishy to me"


    i have just seen cut and paste stuff from people that are blind believers. these people aren't fit to educate anybody.

    and i have a right to say it looks fishy to me. and for quite some time i have pointed out some very odd occurances with nasa that make no sense.

    they did a good job with this coverup, even endoctronated the young and uneducated to continue to carry on the lies.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 08:41:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 31 2022 03:17 am

    i have just seen cut and paste stuff from people that are blind believers. these people aren't fit to educate anybody.

    You seem to be repeating a lot of the same stuff I've heard from other people who say the moon landing seemed fishy. Cut and paste stuff from you as well. Are you just blindly believing the conspiracy stuff?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Thursday, September 01, 2022 00:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 31 2022 08:41 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 31 2022 03:17 am

    i have just seen cut and paste stuff from people that are blind believe these people aren't fit to educate anybody.

    You seem to be repeating a lot of the same stuff I've heard from other peopl

    Nightfox

    I never put much faith in moon landing conspiricists. Even before History Channel and Natgeo existed, news show such as 60 minutes or dateline would int erview the conspiracy theory folks. Not sure why, but most of them lived in what looked like a scrap yard or a futue filming site for Hoarders, and they had built elaborate devices out of scrap materials to prove their hypothesis'.

    One such device was to prove the cameras used by the astronauts could not have
    been operable with the gloves the astronauts wore. The device was a
    plexiglas box witha rubber glove heavily wrapped in duct tape, and it used a hand operated bellows to extract the air from the box. Supposedly the duct tape covered glove would react the same way a real space glove would in a vacuum, and be too inflexible to push buttons or move levers. It all sounded plausible until a former NASA employee who owned an actual moon suit glove built his own vacuum box and used an actual NASA modified camera to debunk
    the debunker.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thursday, September 01, 2022 03:55:22
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 31 2022 08:41 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Wed Aug 31 2022 03:17 am

    i have just seen cut and paste stuff from people that are blind believers. these people aren't fit to educate anybody.

    You seem to be repeating a lot of the same stuff I've heard from other people who say the moon landing seemed fishy. Cut and paste stuff from you as well. Are you just blindly believing the conspiracy stuff?

    the only thing i cut and pasted was the list of technological advancements that we had thanks to space exploration.

    DISPROVING your statement that there was no reason to go back.

    I don't follow any conspiracies. that being said, in the last year or so many 'conspiracies' about many things have been proven to be true.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, September 01, 2022 03:57:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 12:18 am

    vacuum, and be too inflexible to push buttons or move levers. It all sounded plausible until a former NASA employee who owned an actual moon suit glove built his own vacuum box and used an actual NASA modified camera to debunk
    the debunker.

    isnt it illegal to own that stuff?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to Digital Man on Thursday, September 01, 2022 08:38:00
    cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to Mars and

    Isnt the Robot technology just amazing!! I have watched tons of youtube videos on Robots and AI and its almost scary a little bit... Really cool stuff though..

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... I think I am, therefore, I am... I think.
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Irish_Monk on Thursday, September 01, 2022 08:22:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to Digital Man on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:38 am

    cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to Mars and

    Isnt the Robot technology just amazing!! I have watched tons of youtube videos on Robots and AI and its almost scary a little bit... Really cool stuff though..

    that dog shaped robot is scarey as hell. the one that can shoot.
    that's going to be our terminators.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Moondog on Thursday, September 01, 2022 10:04:08
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 12:18 am

    a hand operated bellows to extract the air from the box. Supposedly the duct tape covered glove would react the same way a real space glove would in a vacuum, and be too inflexible to push buttons or move levers. It all sounded plausible until a former NASA employee who owned an actual moon suit glove built his own vacuum box and used an actual NASA modified camera to debunk the debunker.

    Yeah, the problem is that the conspiracy theorists won't watch that video, and they'll just go on believing what they want.

    They conviently ignore the mountains of evidence that refute their hypothesis, and will jump up and down, and shout loudly about the tiny little bit that does.

    DaiTengu

    ... Some men are discovered; others are found out.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Thursday, September 01, 2022 08:53:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 03:55 am

    the only thing i cut and pasted was the list of technological advancements that we had thanks to space exploration.

    DISPROVING your statement that there was no reason to go back.

    Yes, we can get technological advancements with space missions, but (as has been mentioned), at what risk and cost? Is it worth the costs and risks of going to the moon to get these advancements right now?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Thursday, September 01, 2022 11:30:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Sep 01 2022 03:57 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 12:18 am

    vacuum, and be too inflexible to push buttons or move levers. It all sounded plausible until a former NASA employee who owned an actual moon s glove built his own vacuum box and used an actual NASA modified camera to debunk
    the debunker.

    isnt it illegal to own that stuff?

    He may not have owned it but had access to it. When I was in pre-school we
    had a guest come in who was the parent of another student. He worked for
    NASA, and brought a pair of gloves and boots for show and tell. I can't
    recall if he was an engineer or an astronaut (I was 4 years old.) They were heavy AF. I recall him saying the suit was 200 pounds though. His son
    stepped into the boots and couldn't lift his legs. The gloves were handed around, and they were also very robust in construction.

    This was around 74. The program was still going on, and he was probably
    doing tours of schools with the gloves and boots on loan from NASA.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Thursday, September 01, 2022 12:03:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Irish_Monk on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:22 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to Digital Man on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:38 am

    cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to Mars and

    Isnt the Robot technology just amazing!! I have watched tons of youtube videos on Robots and AI and its almost scary a little bit... Really cool stuff though..

    that dog shaped robot is scarey as hell. the one that can shoot.
    that's going to be our terminators.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

    There is already a non-profit advocating for the permanent ban of robot soldiers. I
    think it is called "Stop Killer Robots" or something of the sort.

    I don't think they are going to have any success since we humans love to produce stuff
    to kill humans faster. And automated machine for killing humans is the government's
    wet dream.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thursday, September 01, 2022 12:53:54
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:53 am

    Yes, we can get technological advancements with space missions, but (as has been mentioned), at what risk and cost? Is it worth the costs and risks of going to the moon to get these advancements right now?


    if we never had them before, yes it is.

    just the advancement in heat resistant material that is now used in firefighter clothing has saved lives.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Thursday, September 01, 2022 12:54:29
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 11:30 am

    He may not have owned it but had access to it. When I was in pre-school we had a guest come in who was the parent of another student. He worked for NASA, and brought a pair of gloves and boots for show and tell. I can't recall if he was an engineer or an astronaut (I was 4 years old.) They were heavy AF. I recall him saying the suit was 200 pounds though. His son stepped into the boots and couldn't lift his legs. The gloves were handed around, and they were also very robust in construction.

    This was around 74. The program was still going on, and he was probably doing tours of schools with the gloves and boots on loan from NASA.

    he was probably a liar.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Thursday, September 01, 2022 13:04:05
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 12:03 pm


    There is already a non-profit advocating for the permanent ban of robot soldiers. I think it is called "Stop Killer Robots" or something of the sort.

    I don't think they are going to have any success since we humans love to produce stuff to kill humans faster. And automated machine for killing humans is the government's wet dream.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLDOvPIgxDE&ab_channel=AsItIsNews

    according to this video you can get knockoffs on aliexpress
    looks like you can get some on amazon for 800 bucks.

    imagine 1000 of these things with all kinds of weapons running around shooting people. they air drop these little shits and everyone's dead in half an hour.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Thursday, September 01, 2022 16:39:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:53 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 03:55 am

    the only thing i cut and pasted was the list of technological advanceme that we had thanks to space exploration.

    DISPROVING your statement that there was no reason to go back.

    Yes, we can get technological advancements with space missions, but (as has

    Nightfox

    In order to learn and grow, one can only do so much while viewing from
    inside a cradle. Ships sit safely moored in harbors. That is not ships are for.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Thursday, September 01, 2022 17:45:25
    On 8/30/22 15:10, MRO wrote:
    Feel free to cite your own reputable sources, and they should probably
    include multiple insider leakers that can be confirmed to have worked
    for NASA and/or the federal government at the time.

    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence required.

    it's not my job to educate the ignorant.
    It *IS* your job to back up your claims with credible evidence.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Irish_Monk on Thursday, September 01, 2022 21:18:34
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to Digital Man on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:38 am

    cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to Mars and

    Isnt the Robot technology just amazing!! I have watched tons of youtube videos on Robots and AI and its almost scary a little bit... Really cool stuff though..

    It is. I actually work on the develpoment of a robot taxi for my occupation. Shit's getting real.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #51:
    Suddenly you were gone from all the lives you left your mark upon
    Norco, CA WX: 81.2øF, 52.0% humidity, 0 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Thursday, September 01, 2022 20:42:00
    Mro said to Digital Man: <=-

    so apparently most people have been brainwashed
    [1] yes we did go to the moon in the 70s
    [2] there is NO reason to go back and it's too dangerous to try.

    It's strange that you have three points but only numbered two of them. I'm going to fix the numbering and giving my own thoughts:

    [1] Yes, we went to the moon. Multiple times. This is an established
    historical FACT, one that is documented including photos *and* videos.

    [2] I do disagree that we don't have a reason to go back. Eventually, we
    will need to set up at least a base on the moon to make it easier to strike out, whether it is to Mars, one of Jupiter's moons, or to another solar
    system. We need to survey what's there and find a good place to eventually build a foundation. We aren't talking about something that can be done in years, nor decades. We are talking about time in centuries, we should
    already be moving forward on this.

    [3] Yes, it is damned dangerous to strap a rocket to anything. You're
    talking about millions of tons of literal explosives. Hell, it's dangerous
    to put an airplane up into the sky, but we still put up hundreds per hour. Things that put us into (or above) the sky are filled with danger. It's a matter of mitigating the risk.


    -- Bex <3
    Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to realize
    the fact that you're a god damn moron.
    - The Dude, "The Big Lebowski"
    -*- ASTG 1.8

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Thursday, September 01, 2022 20:56:00
    Mro said to DaiTengu: <=-

    Yes, that's how progress works. We didn't have the technology,
    knowledge,

    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling

    Nice "Die Hard" But seriously, how do you think that science and technology progress? Ever heard of the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants"?


    -- Bex <3
    "What's brunch?"
    "You'll love it. it's not quite breakfast, it's not quite...lunch,
    but it comes with a slice of
    upe at the end. You don't get exactly
    what you want for breakfast, but you get a good meal!"
    --Marge and Jaque
    -*- ASTG 1.8

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Thursday, September 01, 2022 21:05:00
    Mro said to DaiTengu: <=-


    i'm not into conspiracies.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [Deep breath] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    -- Bex <3
    "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right
    thing to do. The hard part is doing it."
    - General H. Norman Schwarzkopf
    -*- ASTG 1.8

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to faeempress on Thursday, September 01, 2022 21:14:00
    faeempress said to Gamgee: <=-

    (Artemis II) will do the same (a 10 day mission). Sometime in 2025, a 4-person crew (Artemis III) will land 2 people (one of them a woman) on
    First woman on the moon! Awesome! I love it!

    Hooray! I knew we would get there eventually.


    -- Bex <3
    Friendship that insists upon agreement on all matters is not worth the name. Friendship to be real must ever sustain the weight of honest differences, however sharp they be. -Mahatma Gandhi
    -*- ASTG 1.8

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Friday, September 02, 2022 00:05:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 12:03 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Irish_Monk on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:22 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to Digital Man on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:38 am

    cost and risk associated. Instead, we've been sending robots to M and

    Isnt the Robot technology just amazing!! I have watched tons of youtub videos on Robots and AI and its almost scary a little bit... Really co stuff though..

    that dog shaped robot is scarey as hell. the one that can shoot.
    that's going to be our terminators.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

    There is already a non-profit advocating for the permanent ban of robot sold think it is called "Stop Killer Robots" or something of the sort.

    I don't think they are going to have any success since we humans love to pro to kill humans faster. And automated machine for killing humans is the gover wet dream.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    There used to be a Discovery network TV program from 2007 caled Future
    Weapons, and they highlighted a tracked robot intended to carry an M-249 SAW o r a M24 rifle system. IIRC they took examples of the product to test in IRaq or Afghanistan without the rifle mounted, and ran into other porblems they didn't anticipate. Truck convoys run radio jammers to prevent IEDS form
    being remotely detonated. Between the jammers other RF sources, the tracked platform could not be reliably piloted without other sources of RF
    interfering with it.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Digital Man on Thursday, September 01, 2022 23:15:00
    It is. I actually work on the develpoment of a robot taxi for my occupation. Shit's getting real.

    Really? Which one?

    I work in autonomy simulation. My company supports most of the major OEMs doing everything from basic ADAS to full autonomy. We're entering a pretty cool era. In fact I think in 20 years we'll think back in horror to the fact that all these people were hurtling around with tons of metal at 70mph while playing with their phones. It'll feel like the wild west.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Moondog on Thursday, September 01, 2022 23:17:00
    There used to be a Discovery network TV program from 2007 caled Future Weapons, and they highlighted a tracked robot intended to carry an M-249 SAW o r a M24 rifle system. IIRC they took examples of the product to test in IRaq or Afghanistan without the rifle mounted, and ran into
    other porblems they didn't anticipate. Truck convoys run radio jammers
    to prevent IEDS form being remotely detonated. Between the jammers
    other RF sources, the tracked platform could not be reliably piloted without other sources of RF interfering with it.

    This is the problem with "leader follower" technology. Which is what a lot of folks in government seem to think we need to build. Ugh, don't get me started haha.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Friday, September 02, 2022 02:29:31
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Thu Sep 01 2022 04:39 pm


    In order to learn and grow, one can only do so much while viewing from inside a cradle. Ships sit safely moored in harbors. That is not ships are for.


    without change something inside us sleeps and seldom awakens.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Friday, September 02, 2022 02:30:02
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Thu Sep 01 2022 05:45 pm


    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence required.

    it's not my job to educate the ignorant.
    It *IS* your job to back up your claims with credible evidence.


    last i checked that's not my fucking job pal. we're not in court of law.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 02:32:38
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to Mro on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:42 pm

    It's strange that you have three points but only numbered two of them. I'm going to fix the numbering and giving my own thoughts:

    no thanks, fuck off. and dont know ya.

    Didn't read the rest of your snarky msg, but again, fuck off with a bowling pin in your ass sideways.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 02:33:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to Mro on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:56 pm

    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling

    Nice "Die Hard" But seriously, how do you think that science and technology

    you depend on google too much. that quote isn't from die hard, try hard.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 02:34:41
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to Mro on Thu Sep 01 2022 09:05 pm

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [Deep breath] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [types name into twitlist.cfg] seeya, tryhard.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to esc on Friday, September 02, 2022 07:42:00
    pretty cool era. In fact I think in 20 years we'll think back in horror
    to the fact that all these people were hurtling around with tons of
    metal at 70mph while playing with their phones. It'll feel like the wild west.

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes soon. Will hopefully save a lot of lives.

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Read messages, not taglines
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Irish_Monk on Friday, September 02, 2022 07:40:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:42 am

    pretty cool era. In fact I think in 20 years we'll think back in horror to the fact that all these people were hurtling around with tons of metal at 70mph while playing with their phones. It'll feel like the wild west.

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes soon. Will hopefully save a lot of lives.


    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like he's going to hit me and flashing his brights on me.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to MRO on Friday, September 02, 2022 09:49:00
    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like
    he's going to hit me and flashing his brights on me.

    Not good, I sometimes just pull over and let them go. Then I move on with my life and completely forget about it. Unfortunately, thats the person who will either kill/hurt himself one day or someone else. Not good!!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 08:42:00
    bex wrote to Mro <=-

    Yes, that's how progress works. We didn't have the technology,
    knowledge,
    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling

    Nice "Die Hard" But seriously, how do you think that science and technology progress? Ever heard of the phrase "standing on the
    shoulders of giants"?

    ___________________
    /| /| | |
    ||__|| | Please do |
    / O O\__ NOT |
    / \ feed the |
    / \ \ trolls |
    / _ \ \ ______________|
    / |\____\ \ ||
    / | | | |\____/ ||
    / \|_|_|/ \ __||
    / / \ |____| ||
    / | | /| | --|
    | | |// |____ --|
    * _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
    *-- _--\ _ \ // |
    / _ \\ _ // | /
    * / \_ /- | - | |
    * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________



    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Irish_Monk on Friday, September 02, 2022 10:22:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to MRO on Fri Sep 02 2022 09:49 am

    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like he's going to hit me and flashing his brights on me.

    Not good, I sometimes just pull over and let them go. Then I move on with my life and completely forget about it. Unfortunately, thats the person who will either kill/hurt himself one day or someone else. Not good!!

    well i just get a good look at the person. if it's a 20-30s white guy in a suit i just get off the gas and i roll until i drive him insane.

    i have been shot at for no reason, though. someone on the other side of the interstate shot at me when i was going home from a bar.

    we both were going fast and black people don't know how to shoot so i wasn't really in danger.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 09:34:05
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to Mro on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:42 pm

    [2] I do disagree that we don't have a reason to go back. Eventually, we will need to set up at least a base on the moon to make it easier to strike out, whether it is to Mars, one of Jupiter's moons, or to another solar system. We need to survey what's there and find a good place to

    I think it is a good goal to go to the moon. When I said I didn't think we had a reason to go back, I just meant within the last 50 years (in response to the conspiracy people asking why we haven't gone back yet). I don't think it has had much importance in the past 50 years, but I think it will have more importance and benefit in the future.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to bex on Friday, September 02, 2022 08:58:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to Mro on Thu Sep 01 2022 08:42 pm

    Mro said to Digital Man: <=-

    so apparently most people have been brainwashed
    [1] yes we did go to the moon in the 70s
    [2] there is NO reason to go back and it's too dangerous to try.

    It's strange that you have three points but only numbered two of them. I'm going to fix the numbering and giving my own thoughts:

    [1] Yes, we went to the moon. Multiple times. This is an established historical FACT, one that is documented including photos *and* videos.

    [2] I do disagree that we don't have a reason to go back. Eventually, we will need to set up at least a base on the moon to make it easier to strike out, whether it is to Mars, one of Jupiter's moons, or to another solar system. We need to survey what's there and find a good place to eventually build a foundation. We aren't talking about something that can be done in years, nor decades. We are talking about time in centuries, we should already be moving forward on this.

    [3] Yes, it is damned dangerous to strap a rocket to anything. You're talking about millions of tons of literal explosives. Hell, it's dangerous to put an airplane up into the sky, but we still put up hundreds per hour. Things that put us into (or above) the sky are filled with danger. It's a matter of mitigating the risk.


    -- Bex <3
    Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to realize
    the fact that you're a god damn moron.
    - The Dude, "The Big Lebowski"
    -*- ASTG 1.8

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    The word "propellant" is used for fuel. That is when it is properly metered and the burn rate is predictable. When something changes these parameters,
    it becomes an explosive.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Friday, September 02, 2022 09:31:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Moondog on Thu Sep 01 2022 11:17 pm

    There used to be a Discovery network TV program from 2007 caled Future Weapons, and they highlighted a tracked robot intended to carry an M-24 SAW o r a M24 rifle system. IIRC they took examples of the product to test in IRaq or Afghanistan without the rifle mounted, and ran into other porblems they didn't anticipate. Truck convoys run radio jammers to prevent IEDS form being remotely detonated. Between the jammers other RF sources, the tracked platform could not be reliably piloted without other sources of RF interfering with it.

    This is the problem with "leader follower" technology. Which is what a lot o

    In the movies and video games the idea of autonomous weapons ranges from cool to horrifying. In reality I find it horrifying because the ways used to identify an enemy can be false positives. If your friend or foe
    identification system can be jammed or confused, or if you rely on visual clues, I hope the robot is smart enough to ask for help if it is not 100% certain. In the Ukraine, both sides share common hardware ranging from
    trucks to armor to fighter jets. The only way to knwo where the enemy is is know where your people aren't. As the enemy approaches, an enemy on the
    wrong side of the lines can be very dangerous. An armor unit that is ahead
    of it'sgoal may appear to be retreating enemies.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Irish_Monk on Friday, September 02, 2022 09:49:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:42 am

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes soon. Will hopefully save a lot of lives.

    Sometimes I'll be going 80mph on the highways here and there are occasionally people who will pass, and some that weave in and out of the traffic, just trying to get further ahead.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Friday, September 02, 2022 12:09:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to bex on Fri Sep 02 2022 09:34 am

    I think it is a good goal to go to the moon. When I said I didn't think we had a reason to go back, I just meant within the last 50 years (in response to the conspiracy people asking why we haven't gone back yet). I don't think it has had much importance in the past 50 years, but I think it will have more importance and benefit in the future.

    that is some dumb shit to say dude. if we made all those advancements before, why cant we do them again. and if we couldnt do it in that gap, why go back now? oh you're okay with going back now, right?

    i don't think you're right in the head.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Friday, September 02, 2022 11:08:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Sep 02 2022 12:09 pm

    before, why cant we do them again. and if we couldnt do it in that gap, why go back now? oh you're okay with going back now, right?

    i don't think you're right in the head.

    Going to the moon is fine and all, but I think there are probably more important issues we could be focusing on than going to the moon right now. But don't pay attention to me, I guess I'm not right in the head.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Digital Man on Friday, September 02, 2022 21:26:00
    Yes, really, zoox.com :-)

    Interesting! I may hit you up on DM on Facebook if that's ok :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Saturday, September 03, 2022 06:17:30
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 06:53 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Digital Man on Thu Sep 01 2022 11:15 pm

    It is. I actually work on the develpoment of a robot taxi for my occupation. Shit's getting real.

    Really? Which one?

    Yes, really, zoox.com :-)

    those things look pretty cool. i would be worried about the human element.
    if there's a human driver it's more of a deterrant to misbehaving. also people would leave garbage and god knows what in them.

    i think we need self driving cars to save lives. there's too many drunk drivers, reckless drivers and people who don't know how to drive period.

    i would just like to lay down while my car drives me to work.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Saturday, September 03, 2022 10:48:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Irish_Monk on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:40 am

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time
    comes soon. Will hopefully save a lot of lives.

    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like he's going to hit me and flashing his brights on me. ---

    I'll bet $50 that asshole had Illinois plates.

    DaiTengu

    ... Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Saturday, September 03, 2022 11:27:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Sat Sep 03 2022 10:48 am

    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like he's going to hit me and flashing his brights on me. ---

    I'll bet $50 that asshole had Illinois plates.

    DaiTengu

    ... Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    yeah many times it has been. they dont realize that where i live people want you to hit them so they can get the insurance payout.

    the woman i live with came from illinois and tried her shitty driving up here and her car was totaled in about a month. in the last 2 years she has been in 2 more accidents that i know of. i told her she's supposed to look both ways when she turns and she says i'm wrong. i said when you follow behind a car you need to have enough time to stop and have 1 car length between when going 55mph. she says i'm wrong.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to DaiTengu on Saturday, September 03, 2022 15:39:00
    I'll bet $50 that asshole had Illinois plates.

    Thats too funny right there!!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... I'm not a complete idiot... Several parts are missing!
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Irish_Monk on Saturday, September 03, 2022 17:47:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to DaiTengu on Sat Sep 03 2022 03:39 pm

    I'll bet $50 that asshole had Illinois plates.

    Thats too funny right there!!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    rush hour in chicago is frightening. people cut people off when you can't fit
    a piece of paper inbetween the cars.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Saturday, September 03, 2022 14:10:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Moondog on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:07 pm

    In the movies and video games the idea of autonomous weapons ranges fro cool to horrifying. In reality I find it horrifying because the ways used to identify an enemy can be false positives. If your friend or fo identification system can be jammed or confused, or if you rely on visu clues, I hope the robot is smart enough to ask for help if it is not 10 certain. In the Ukraine, both sides share common hardware ranging from trucks to armor to fighter jets. The only way to knwo where the enemy is is know where your people aren't. As the enemy approaches, an enem on the wrong side of the lines can be very dangerous. An armor unit that is ahead of it'sgoal may appear to be retreating enemies.

    I suspect we as a species will never agree to fully autonomous weapon system

    The one exception is those systems that acquire incoming and try shooting it

    I can see that happening in that situation. Some items do not belong in no
    fly zones or sensitive areas, or multiple safeguards are in place to reduce
    the chances of a friendly fire. If an AI detects a cruise missile flying towards a government building, it would know that shouldn't be there. If Cessna wanders into protected airspace in a non-aggressive flight path, it would allow an attempt to contact the pilot to change course before firing.


    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Saturday, September 03, 2022 14:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to MRO on Sat Sep 03 2022 10:48 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Irish_Monk on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:40 am

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time
    comes soon. Will hopefully save a lot of lives.

    i'm doing like 90 to work and some asshole is driving up my ass like he going to hit me and flashing his brights on me. ---

    I'll bet $50 that asshole had Illinois plates.

    DaiTengu

    ... Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    Damn FIPS! I had one in a Hellcat coming close to a bumper impact, weaving back and forth in the lane trying to pass me on either the shoulder or other l ane which is solid with cars and no passing. Dude tried to make his move and neary hit a box truck. He pulled hard right and bashed in the guard rail.
    His steering was really wobbly now, and when he pulled into a drive to a
    gated community, he crashed nose first into a barrier wall made of railroad ties and cinder blocks. By the time I found a spot I could pull over and
    call the police, a car had already arrived. Chances are the police was
    chasing him, hence the wreckless driving.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Saturday, September 03, 2022 18:57:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to DaiTengu on Sat Sep 03 2022 02:18 pm


    Damn FIPS! I had one in a Hellcat coming close to a bumper impact, weaving back and forth in the lane trying to pass me on either the shoulder or other l ane which is solid with cars and no passing. Dude tried to make his move and neary hit a box truck. He pulled hard right and bashed in the guard rail.
    His steering was really wobbly now, and when he pulled into a drive to a gated community, he crashed nose first into a barrier wall made of railroad


    arent you in the midwest? there's people stealing hellcats with airtags. they tag the car and come back and steal it. i've seen a video where they bust in and get it into neutral and a car behind him pushes him and he steers.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Irish_Monk on Sunday, September 04, 2022 05:03:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:42 am

    pretty cool era. In fact I think in 20 years we'll think back in horror to the fact that all these people were hurtling around with tons of metal at 70mph while playing with their phones. It'll feel like the wil west.

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes soon

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Read messages, not taglines

    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport. Governments worldwide are forcing the situation to explode faster because scarcity of transport would mean the government would get more powerful (ie. chances for taxed licenses for industrial transport and the like).

    Besides, given the current state of self-driving technology, I would consider the imposition of self-driving cars a step backwards, since it would place transport in the hands of corporations which would run your car from a network of edge servers. If you have heard complaints about corporations owning your computer instead of you owning your computer, this is just the same idea.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sunday, September 04, 2022 05:10:43
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 09:31 am

    In the movies and video games the idea of autonomous weapons ranges from coo to horrifying. In reality I find it horrifying because the ways used to identify an enemy can be false positives. If your friend or foe identification system can be jammed or confused, or if you rely on visual clues, I hope the robot is smart enough to ask for help if it is not 100% certain. In the Ukraine, both sides share common hardware ranging from trucks to armor to fighter jets. The only way to knwo where the enemy is is know where your people aren't. As the enemy approaches, an enemy on the wrong side of the lines can be very dangerous. An armor unit that is ahead of it'sgoal may appear to be retreating enemies.


    The South Korean experimental ones walk around with the safeties on. If they find something that looks like an enemy, they will acquire a lock on it but will only open fire if set to hot mode.

    They are currently using them for border patrol. The idea is that if they find something, somebody in HQ will decide whether to switch the safeties off or not on the spot.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 09:04:00
    Besides, given the current state of self-driving technology, I would consider the imposition of self-driving cars a step backwards, since it would place transport in the hands of corporations which would run your car from a network of edge servers. If you have heard complaints about corporations owning your computer instead of you owning your computer, this is just the same idea.

    Good point, Didnt think about it that way. Even though I might not be one to believe every "conspiracy," I also dont trust the government very much, and thats why I believe people should be able to ask questions and research things they dont believe the government is being honost with us.

    Im definitely not as smart as most people on these NETS, but I did get into watching Documentarys, (its actually all I really can watch even to this day) and the thing that I believe that caused more problems than anything, is when they allowed Corporate companies to give money to parties they basically want to invest in. All this causes, is now the elected person "owes" that company, which I believe should be a conflict of interest.

    And allowing people to be in government and flip flop from government positions right back over to the Corporate company they actually worked for the whole time changing laws for them in the first place.

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Great minds think alike; small minds run together
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 08:14:49
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Irish_Monk on Sun Sep 04 2022 05:03 am

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes soon

    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport. Governments worldwide are forcing the situation to explode faster because scarcity of transport would mean the government would get more powerful (ie. chances for taxed licenses for industrial transport and the like).


    in my country that shit wont fly. people only take so much bullshit until they turn. look at joe biden. nobody likes that mothefucker and only the most delusional can make excuses for him.

    americans love to take their cars out and drive around like idiots. i dont see that going away. furthermore, the bus system can't go everywhere. i need to drive to my employer, taking pubic transportation is not possible.

    when i was at my old job, for a number of years i took public transportation. my employer paid for it so i was like what the hell. in the morning i would get there early but it was still an hour drive to go 11 miles. i was also the only guy riding the bus most of the time. getting home was twice the time.

    that city supposely won awards for its great public transportation.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, September 04, 2022 08:12:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Sep 03 2022 06:57 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to DaiTengu on Sat Sep 03 2022 02:18 pm


    Damn FIPS! I had one in a Hellcat coming close to a bumper impact, weavi back and forth in the lane trying to pass me on either the shoulder or ot l ane which is solid with cars and no passing. Dude tried to make his mo and neary hit a box truck. He pulled hard right and bashed in the guard rail.
    His steering was really wobbly now, and when he pulled into a drive to a gated community, he crashed nose first into a barrier wall made of railro


    arent you in the midwest? there's people stealing hellcats with airtags. th
    I'm in SW Michigan. From the shore of Lake Michigan we can see Chicago (at least Sears Tower and city skyline) from 60 miles away due west.

    SWM is a tourist area. Wineries and Micro Breweries and Distillerys have
    taken over. FIPS have summer homes and invade every weekend. I94 is loaded with FIP cars and there is a long line going into Waren Dunes State Park.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 08:25:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Irish_Monk on Sun Sep 04 2022 05:03 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 07:42 am

    pretty cool era. In fact I think in 20 years we'll think back in hor to the fact that all these people were hurtling around with tons of metal at 70mph while playing with their phones. It'll feel like the west.

    You get passed only doing 70mph around here!! Hopefully that time comes s

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Read messages, not taglines

    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport. Governments worldwi are forcing the situation to explode faster because scarcity of transport wo mean the government would get more powerful (ie. chances for taxed licenses industrial transport and the like).

    Besides, given the current state of self-driving technology, I would conside the imposition of self-driving cars a step backwards, since it would place transport in the hands of corporations which would run your car from a netwo of edge servers. If you have heard complaints about corporations owning your computer instead of you owning your computer, this is just the same idea.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    Can a corporation do a better job maintaining a fleet of autonomous vehicles compare to a city or county government? The rent a car industry seems to always have more modern cars in good shape.

    Personally, I like having a personal car that won't get shut off because the company's network can't see it due to poor cell reception or lack of related cell partnerships.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 08:40:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Sun Sep 04 2022 05:10 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to esc on Fri Sep 02 2022 09:31 am

    In the movies and video games the idea of autonomous weapons ranges from to horrifying. In reality I find it horrifying because the ways used to identify an enemy can be false positives. If your friend or foe identification system can be jammed or confused, or if you rely on visual clues, I hope the robot is smart enough to ask for help if it is not 100% certain. In the Ukraine, both sides share common hardware ranging from trucks to armor to fighter jets. The only way to knwo where the enemy is know where your people aren't. As the enemy approaches, an enemy on the wrong side of the lines can be very dangerous. An armor unit that is ahe of it'sgoal may appear to be retreating enemies.


    The South Korean experimental ones walk around with the safeties on. If they find something that looks like an enemy, they will acquire a lock on it but will only open fire if set to hot mode.

    They are currently using them for border patrol. The idea is that if they fi something, somebody in HQ will decide whether to switch the safeties off or on the spot.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    In situations such as gruard duty or watching checkpoints, and AI would have
    to be situationally aware of everything around it. Something that looks like
    a main threat could easily be a distraction or diversion to what is really happening. One car parked suspiciously could tie up an AI trying to figure
    out it's next move while another vehicle or people set up an ambush or push
    on the checkpoint.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, September 04, 2022 13:38:12
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:12 am

    th
    I'm in SW Michigan. From the shore of Lake Michigan we can see Chicago (at least Sears Tower and city skyline) from 60 miles away due west.

    SWM is a tourist area. Wineries and Micro Breweries and Distillerys have taken over. FIPS have summer homes and invade every weekend. I94 is loaded with FIP cars and there is a long line going into Waren Dunes State Park.

    i have no idea what a fucking fip is.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 14:39:00
    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport.

    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the second biggest investment someone will make (after the home) and it's one that is exceedingly likely to be a financial loss, and it's something people spend a trivial amount of time actually using (vs other large expenses).

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns their own transportation but I don't think that's because it's needed...a future where I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, and take a nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination later, without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home run.

    I say this as a "car guy" that has several cars, it's one of my biggest hobbies.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Sunday, September 04, 2022 17:40:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm


    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the second biggest investment someone will make (after the home) and it's one that is exceedingly likely to be a financial loss, and it's something people spend a trivial amount of time actually using (vs other large expenses).



    my cars didn't cost that much and i spend a lot of time using them.
    they take me to my jobs and to get food.

    i couldn't support myself without a vehicle.

    if you get your money's worth it's not a financial loss.

    I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, and take a nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination later, without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home run.

    fuck that shit. i dont want to live in that kind of world.

    I say this as a "car guy" that has several cars, it's one of my biggest hobbies.

    it may be your hobby but it's not your way of life.

    i've gone without a car in the past. it's pure hell. shopping, going to work, doing errands. it fucking sucks. i dont want to get in a strangers car. public transportation is disgusting and time consuming.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Sunday, September 04, 2022 17:26:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:14 am

    in my country that shit wont fly. people only take so much bullshit until th

    americans love to take their cars out and drive around like idiots. i dont s

    when i was at my old job, for a number of years i took public transportation my employer paid for it so i was like what the hell. in the morning i would

    that city supposely won awards for its great public transportation.

    There is certainly a point there.

    Government here has been pushing for people to give up private transport for ages, but the alternatives they offer just don't cut it. By this, I don't mean they work worse, but that they just don't function - ie. the Junta would have you give your car up and take the bus when you want a trip from the village to the city, except there is no bus line for the trip to begin with.

    Since they have made no progress erradicating cars, what they are doing instead is making private vehicless less usable so people turns to other means of transport. Ideas such as taxing certain roads so you don't dream of driving them down, closing streets to vehicles, etc. are thrown around. Still they don't offer a working alternative once the routes are closed to cars so the end result isn't that people takes public transport, but that people stops circulating through afected areas.

    I think it is no coincidence that the war on cars has become more gruesome just after BP's announcement that peak oil has been reached. I suspect administrations worthwhile are smelling the coffee and that they know they can't manage protestors on the streets angry because diesel prices have multiplied by two or three, so their plan is to get people used not to have transport before fuel becomes unaffordable. I don't even think electric cars are a planned substitute - they know they cannot replace combustion engines for *everybody* with those - but they happen to be the carrot on the horizon to keep people walking forward as affordable cars are extinguished.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sunday, September 04, 2022 17:39:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:25 am

    Can a corporation do a better job maintaining a fleet of autonomous vehicles compare to a city or county government? The rent a car industry seems to always have more modern cars in good shape.

    Personally, I like having a personal car that won't get shut off because the company's network can't see it due to poor cell reception or lack of related cell partnerships.

    I use plenty rental vehicles, so my opinion would be that a private rental fleet is more likely to be maintained than one operated by the administration. owever, that is not what I am talking about.

    I am talking about the day in which manually driven vehicles become forbidden to the public for general use, and the public is expected to use automatic cars instead. The pretext would be simple: "Automatic cars are safer and manual cars get people killed." It is a very easy sell from the political point of view (asuming they can make autonomous cars that actually work).

    However, the only thing you need to realize how disasterous such a thing would be for the end consumer is to have a look at how the software industry and the whole Whatever-as-a-Service model is faring. Software and hardware developed by actors hostile to the nations using them. Mission critical code written by identured workers in countries you would be uncapable of pointing at in a map. Functions the hardware includes which are locked behind paywalls and license agreements.

    It is said that a technophile is a guy who likes to put microchips everywhere in his life, and loves the idea that his fridge, toaster and lightbulbs are automated. It is also said that engineers know how really shitty this stuff gets so they have the toaster in chains just in case it decides to act funky. When you see professional misson critical code written as:

    if (true) {

    statement
    statement

    }

    or as

    while (true) {

    if (condition()) { break }

    statement

    }

    then nobody is going to convince you that the people writing that code is going to be better at driving your car automatically than you XD


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Sunday, September 04, 2022 17:54:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport.

    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the second biggest ing (vs other large expenses).


    You are not going to be able to afford even Transport-as-a-Service, by the look of it.

    It is not the vehicle itself which is gonna become insanely expensive (actually, it _might_), but the power to move you from point A to point B, and that is something you are going to have to pay regardless of who owns the vehicle.

    Also, for a number of people, lacking a privately owned vehicle would be absolutely terrible. To this day I have seen no offer from any Transport-as-a-Service agency that would lend me a car to deliver orders made to my store without eating all my profit away. Not to mention I cannot get a pizza delivered to my house, so my bet is nobody would deliver a car to my place either.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Sunday, September 04, 2022 16:08:54
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns their own transportation but I don't think that's because it's needed...a future where I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, and take a nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination later, without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home run.

    I'd be curious to see (or make) a cost analysis of owning a car vs. not owning one and using ride/taxi services. I wonder how it would cost to continually use ride services and public transportation vs. owning a car. Owning your own car is very convenient; I like being able to get in my car and go wherever I want, when I want.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Sunday, September 04, 2022 16:30:15
    On 9/2/22 00:30, MRO wrote:
    The greater the claim of conspiracy, the greater the evidence
    required.

    it's not my job to educate the ignorant.>>>> It *IS* your job
    to back up your claims with credible evidence.

    last i checked that's not my fucking job pal. we're not in court
    of law.

    Then the assumption must be that you're full of shit and don't know what
    the hell you are talking about. Fair enough.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to esc on Monday, September 05, 2022 21:55:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the second biggest investment someone will make (after the home) and it's one that is exceedingly likely to be a financial loss, and it's something people spend a trivial amount of time actually using (vs other large expenses).

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns their own transportation but I don't think that's because it's needed...a future where I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, and take a nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination later, without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home run.

    I say this as a "car guy" that has several cars, it's one of my biggest hobbies.

    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not car centric.

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the space and infrastructure that cars require.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Monday, September 05, 2022 06:30:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to esc on Sun Sep 04 2022 04:08 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns their transportation but I don't think that's because it's needed...a future where I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, take a nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination later, without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home run.

    I'd be curious to see (or make) a cost analysis of owning a car vs. not owni nt; I like being able to get in my car and go wherever I want, when I want.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

    They ran one in Spain already. Bottom line is:

    * It is cheaper to own your own means of transport as long as it is modest (used car, low end car, motorbike).
    * Public transport and transport-as-a-service is the middle of the road option. * Any private car that is not a budget car is more expensive than the alternatives.

    I have done the numbers myself. With my current car + insurance + maintenance, and asuming the car survives 10 years (likely) I am paying less per day for my car use than what a single taxi trip would cost for any of the regular trips I do.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Monday, September 05, 2022 06:38:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 10:49 pm

    nearby there are people who have no vehicles. they have to shop for food in I have 2 cars, i can drive someplace and get better food and more food for a
    transportation you are fucked. only hipsters like it. real people can't s ---

    Pretty much.

    Even for the sort of short, regular trips a loser without social life takes (from home to work, and the other way around only), my friends had all to get private transport because transport-as-a-service is not cost-efficient and public transport won't take them to their workplaces.

    Unless transport-as-a-service gets cheaper, the administration sets proper bus lines, or they move industrial parks to the center of the city so people does not have to take a meaningful trip from home to the factory, no option at all will satisfy but the humblest of transportation requerinments.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Monday, September 05, 2022 09:41:00
    esc wrote to Arelor <=-

    The point is moot. We are past peak oil since 2019 so I predict in the near future people won t be able to afford private transport.

    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the
    second biggest investment someone will make (after the home) and
    it's one that is exceedingly likely to be a financial loss, and
    it's something people spend a trivial amount of time actually
    using (vs other large expenses).

    Yes, I think it is so terrible.

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns
    their own transportation but I don't think that's because it's
    needed...a future where I can press a button on my phone and the
    car shows up, I get in, and take a nap or use my computer or
    something and then arrive at my destination later, without having
    to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like a home
    run.

    I say this as a "car guy" that has several cars, it's one of my
    biggest hobbies.

    Strange. For most any "car guy" that I ever knew, doing at least *some*
    of the maintenance, and actually *DRIVING* the car were major points in
    *being* a car guy. I generally enjoy driving, a lot.

    Also, your scenario above makes one a slave to the entity that owns and operates the automatic car, whether that's a private enterprise or a government. Either way is a scary thing, to me. I'm not eager to give
    away still more of my freedom and become dependent on something else.



    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Monday, September 05, 2022 10:05:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to esc on Mon Sep 05 2022 09:55 pm


    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.


    you're very wrong. infact, cars changed and improved society for the better. in the usa we even have our weekend due to car manufacturing.

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    cars made everyting easier and better.


    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not car centric.

    our entire world revolves around oil production, much of that going into our vehicles.

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the space and infrastructure that cars require.

    we already have that. we can also dedicate a lane just to autonomous vehicles. they did that in my region anyways for foxcon.

    so i take it you don't OWN a vehicle?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Monday, September 05, 2022 12:09:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Sep 04 2022 01:38 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:12 am

    th
    I'm in SW Michigan. From the shore of Lake Michigan we can see Chicago least Sears Tower and city skyline) from 60 miles away due west.

    SWM is a tourist area. Wineries and Micro Breweries and Distillerys have taken over. FIPS have summer homes and invade every weekend. I94 is loaded with FIP cars and there is a long line going into Waren Dunes Stat Park.

    i have no idea what a fucking fip is.

    F*cking Illinois Person. Not everybody from Illinois is one. You'll know
    them as soon you seen them driving on the road or when they open their
    mouths. They address the locals as if they were slack jawed yokels, and act like they own everything. In the movie The Great Outdoors, there is a scene where they introduce Dan Akroyd's character by showing the Illinois plate on the front of a Mercedes. Nearly everybody on the crowd yelled, "FIP!"

    FIPS are Illinois tourists of the worst degree. It seems like everyone has
    at least one next door whose kids set off fireworks during work nights
    starting halfway through June until halfway through August. When the FIPS
    are in town, the prices all go up. The overpriced antiques stores along Red Arrow Hwy down by New Buffalo love them.


    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Monday, September 05, 2022 12:21:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to MRO on Sun Sep 04 2022 05:26 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:14 am

    in my country that shit wont fly. people only take so much bullshit until

    americans love to take their cars out and drive around like idiots. i don

    when i was at my old job, for a number of years i took public transportat my employer paid for it so i was like what the hell. in the morning i wo

    that city supposely won awards for its great public transportation.

    There is certainly a point there.

    Government here has been pushing for people to give up private transport for ages, but the alternatives they offer just don't cut it. By this, I don't me they work worse, but that they just don't function - ie. the Junta would hav you give your car up and take the bus when you want a trip from the village the city, except there is no bus line for the trip to begin with.

    Since they have made no progress erradicating cars, what they are doing inst is making private vehicless less usable so people turns to other means of transport. Ideas such as taxing certain roads so you don't dream of driving them down, closing streets to vehicles, etc. are thrown around. Still they don't offer a working alternative once the routes are closed to cars so the result isn't that people takes public transport, but that people stops circulating through afected areas.

    I think it is no coincidence that the war on cars has become more gruesome j after BP's announcement that peak oil has been reached. I suspect administrations worthwhile are smelling the coffee and that they know they can't manage protestors on the streets angry because diesel prices have multiplied by two or three, so their plan is to get people used not to have transport before fuel becomes unaffordable. I don't even think electric cars are a planned substitute - they know they cannot replace combustion engines *everybody* with those - but they happen to be the carrot on the horizon to keep people walking forward as affordable cars are extinguished.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    Public transportation doesn't work well in the country. My area has a
    service called Dial-a-ride, but it is only practical if you live in town.
    they have a rural route driver, and charge extra if they have to drive off of that route to pick up or drop off a rider. They run 7am to 3:30pm, so
    there's no way to factor in working an 8 hr job and trasport to and from it.

    It is more suitable for older folks who can't drive yet still want to be indep endent of family driving them around. Too bad it wasn't around in a usable form by me when I was a pre-teen. I think they used radio dispatch to tell route drivers about passengers, but trying to reach DAR required a phone wherever you were. I would jump on the bus, go to town and visit friends in town, or see an early matinee, then ride the bus home.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Monday, September 05, 2022 12:33:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Sun Sep 04 2022 05:39 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:25 am

    Can a corporation do a better job maintaining a fleet of autonomous vehic compare to a city or county government? The rent a car industry seems to always have more modern cars in good shape.

    Personally, I like having a personal car that won't get shut off because company's network can't see it due to poor cell reception or lack of rela cell partnerships.

    I use plenty rental vehicles, so my opinion would be that a private rental fleet is more likely to be maintained than one operated by the administratio owever, that is not what I am talking about.

    I am talking about the day in which manually driven vehicles become forbidde to the public for general use, and the public is expected to use automatic c instead. The pretext would be simple: "Automatic cars are safer and manual c get people killed." It is a very easy sell from the political point of view (asuming they can make autonomous cars that actually work).

    However, the only thing you need to realize how disasterous such a thing wou be for the end consumer is to have a look at how the software industry and t whole Whatever-as-a-Service model is faring. Software and hardware developed actors hostile to the nations using them. Mission critical code written by identured workers in countries you would be uncapable of pointing at in a ma Functions the hardware includes which are locked behind paywalls and license agreements.

    It is said that a technophile is a guy who likes to put microchips everywher in his life, and loves the idea that his fridge, toaster and lightbulbs are automated. It is also said that engineers know how really shitty this stuff gets so they have the toaster in chains just in case it decides to act funky When you see professional misson critical code written as:

    if (true) {

    statement
    statement

    }

    or as

    while (true) {

    if (condition()) { break }

    statement

    }

    then nobody is going to convince you that the people writing that code is go to be better at driving your car automatically than you XD


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    If there are any accidents the company that makes the car would be
    responsible, because they wrote the code. On the highway, cars will be able
    to go as fast as their hardware can keep up. Every car is evenly spaced for safety, and cars could run at higher speeds because they could react faster than humans. No more reckless drivers, or old ladies that driver 30mph on
    the freeway with the right signal on.

    I mentioned in other threads I live in the country, and road conditions
    involve uneven roads due to potholes and repaired potholes. Some roads are partial paved, and transistions from dirt to pavement or gravel canplace a
    car out of control if you're going too fast. i imagine conditions like these would make autonomous driving difficult. Same applies of there is a coat of snow on the road, and the ditches are covered so there's no telling where the sides of the road begin or end. GPS would be very important then, and bad weather would impair it's accuracy.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Saturday, September 03, 2022 21:32:00
    Mro said to bex: <=-

    Didn't read the rest of your snarky msg, but again, fuck off with a

    Ayup, that sounds just about right. You're kinda being a cliche there, dude. Did I intimidate you or something?

    -- Bex <3
    Tobias Fnke: Well, let's just say that I'm buy-curious.

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Saturday, September 03, 2022 21:36:00
    Mro said to bex: <=-

    progress??? wake up and smell what you are shoveling

    Nice "Die Hard" But seriously, how do you think that science and

    you depend on google too much. that quote isn't from die hard, try

    Don't even try to test my Die Hard quotes. When the smug police captain
    tells Powell that McCain is making things worse, Powell says "Why don't you wake up and smell what you are shoveling."

    I'm a GenX girl, I see everything through my pop culture lens. :)

    -- Bex <3
    "YOU ARE A TOY! ...YOU'RE A CHILD'S PLAYTHING!"
    -Woody, "Toy Story"

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Mro on Saturday, September 03, 2022 21:38:00
    Mro said to bex: <=-

    [Deep breath] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [types name into twitlist.cfg] seeya, tryhard.

    I think I hurt his feelings, he is apparently a lot more sensitive than he seems...

    -- Bex <3
    Bender: In the event of an emergency, my ass can be used as a flotation device.

    * Q-Blue 2.4 *

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Monday, September 05, 2022 13:49:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to esc on Mon Sep 05 2022 09:55 pm

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not car centric.

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fruits & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need for larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would certainly also take longer for me to get to work.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Monday, September 05, 2022 16:22:05
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 01:49 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fruits & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need for larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..


    yeah, imagine carrying a case of bottled water and all your groceries from the bus stop to your door. it's a good workout, but tedious.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Monday, September 05, 2022 17:23:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to esc on Mon Sep 05 2022 09:55 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    Is this so terrible? What's the point? A car is typically the second bigg investment someone will make (after the home) and it's one that is exceedingly likely to be a financial loss, and it's something people spen trivial amount of time actually using (vs other large expenses).

    I think we've grown used to being in a world where everyone owns their ow transportation but I don't think that's because it's needed...a future wh I can press a button on my phone and the car shows up, I get in, and take nap or use my computer or something and then arrive at my destination lat without having to worry about licensing/taxes/maintenance/etc, seems like home run.

    I say this as a "car guy" that has several cars, it's one of my biggest hobbies.

    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We nee

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the space and


    Everything in life is somewhere else, and you need a car to get there.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Boraxman on Monday, September 05, 2022 22:59:00
    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the
    biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to commute for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we could get management from previous generations to just accept remote work as a reality and move on :)

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    Eh, I dunno. I love cars, I will probably always own cars. But for a lot of people, particularly young people, a car is more of a nuisance than anything else at this point. The rideshare app thing is an interesting interim solution, though I believe the markets will likely push us into a world where autonomous vehicles pick people up and drop people off more than traditional cars at some point.

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not
    car centric.

    The only reason I am doubtful here is because of the amount of infrastructure that would be required to rethink transportation to this degree. Having roads, highways, etc., will probably be a big consideration for how things evolve.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Monday, September 05, 2022 23:05:00
    Yes, I think it is so terrible.

    Fair enough. I don't. Guess we equal each other out? *shrug*

    Strange. For most any "car guy" that I ever knew, doing at least *some* of the maintenance, and actually *DRIVING* the car were major points in *being* a car guy. I generally enjoy driving, a lot.

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    There's no way I'm driving my 67 GTO or my 68 Mustang in rush hour traffic in 90 degree heat. But, those are cars that I have for actual enjoyment driving.

    Also, your scenario above makes one a slave to the entity that owns and operates the automatic car, whether that's a private enterprise or a government. Either way is a scary thing, to me. I'm not eager to give away still more of my freedom and become dependent on something else.

    You already have to pay for gas, insurance, licensing, not to mention the cost of a car that will (with infrequent exceptions) only ever depreciate in value. But I digress. The markets will decide all of this and the markets will belong to the next generation before long. And the next generation grew up spoiled with Uber and Lyft and has less of a need for owning a car. They have an entirely different frame of reference. The rate of actually getting a driver's license is on a significant decline. It's fascinating to watch.

    Nevertheless, neither you nor I will decide any of this, the markets will.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Moondog on Monday, September 05, 2022 23:08:00
    I mentioned in other threads I live in the country, and road conditions involve uneven roads due to potholes and repaired potholes. Some roads are partial paved, and transistions from dirt to pavement or gravel canplace a car out of control if you're going too fast. i imagine conditions like these would make autonomous driving difficult. Same applies of there is a coat of snow on the road, and the ditches are covered so there's no telling where the sides of the road begin or end. GPS would be very important then, and bad weather would impair it's accuracy.

    You may be interested to know that the military is investing heavily into offroad autonomy use cases and research. Not saying this will cover everything, just mentioning it as an interesting anecdote.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Sunday, September 04, 2022 08:22:00
    Arelor wrote to Irish_Monk <=-

    Besides, given the current state of self-driving technology, I would consider the imposition of self-driving cars a step backwards, since it would place transport in the hands of corporations which would run your car from a network of edge servers. If you have heard complaints about corporations owning your computer instead of you owning your computer, this is just the same idea.

    my uncle has a country place
    that no one knows about
    he says it used to be a farm
    before the motor law
    on sundays i elude the eyes
    and hop the turbine freight
    to fall outside the wire
    where my white haired uncle waits...

    i strip away the old debris
    that hides a shining car
    a brilliant red barchetta
    from a better, vanished time
    fire up the willing engine
    responding with a roar
    tires spitting gravel
    i commit my weekly crime...



    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 22:25:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:05 am

    you're very wrong. infact, cars changed and improved society for the better. in the usa we even have our weekend due to car manufacturing.

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    cars made everyting easier and better.


    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not car centric.

    our entire world revolves around oil production, much of that going into our vehicles.

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the space and infrastructure that cars require.

    we already have that. we can also dedicate a lane just to autonomous vehicles. they did that in my region anyways for foxcon.

    so i take it you don't OWN a vehicle?

    I do own a car. I'm not against cars completely, I'm saying that they have become necessary for EVERYTHING. Having to rely on a car to go anywhere is a nightmare. I have lived without a car, and in some cities it is viable, if they have good public transport and amenities nearby.

    Cars made things easier? All things? Consider the cost of the car, fuel, insurance, registration, servicing, for the pleasure of sitting an hour each way in traffic because urban design was based on the car being the primary mode of transport. Do the calculation as to how many hours you would need to work to pay for the car and its infrastructure, and deduct that from the time you same. The advantage isn't as great as you might thing. No need to build walkable, people friendly suburbs with good public transport because we can just be lazy and assume everyone will drive everywhere. Now we have urban sprawl and 5 lane freeways jam packed with traffic. Now people are fighting traffic just to go ANYWHERE. We in Australia copied the horrendous American urban model. Urban sprawl and isolation.

    People are rejecting this, preferring to live in the denser inner city, with good servicing by other transportation means, a lifestyle choice I wish I had adopted earlier. People I know who chose to eschew the car-based life don't regret it.

    Without mass production and mass adoption of the car, we'd have better urban design, no doubt. Didn't the automobile manufacturers seek to cripple public transport anyway?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 22:32:56
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 01:49 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fruits & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need for larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would certainly also take longer for me to get to work.

    Nightfox
    Of course the car is useful, it just sucks when used as a universal means of transport. Sure, transporting furniture, driving to the country, this is best done by a car. Groceries, sometimes, but we have terrible urban design where the avialability of groceries is centralised to a few large supermarkets in commercial areas. Why not intersperce residential areas with commercial? More smaller corner general stores? I look at the new suburbs and weep. Houses laid out like carpet with a central "shopping centre" where all the shops are. A traffic snarl, shops lost in a sea of car park which you have to drive to get to because its a bit too far to walk. Wouldn't a store a couple of blocks away, evne if smaller, be easier?

    We're sold on a fake efficiency. We don't really see the costs involved in cars. My wife and I both have cars, and when I calcuate the cost of ownership, it really is quite remarkable. Add to that the fact the streets are made deadly, we have to worry about our children outside the house. The car has many shortcomings that we just overlook because we just take it as a necessary evil. But is it really that necessary?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 22:35:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Sep 05 2022 04:22 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fruits & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need for larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..


    yeah, imagine carrying a case of bottled water and all your groceries from the bus stop to your door. it's a good workout, but tedious.

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could all drive everywhere so we don't need to walk or exert ourselves. Probably explains all the obesity and poor health I see around me.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 22:49:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:59 pm

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to commute for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we could get management from previous generations to just accept remote work as a reality and move on :)


    Work from home is isolating though, but yes, a lot of people don't need to commute to the office everyday. That we spend billions on roads so that people can just sit infront of a different screen doesn't make sense. Complete waste of resources to move the human from place to place, when we can move electrical signals at a tiny fraction of the cost at thousands of times the speed.

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    Eh, I dunno. I love cars, I will probably always own cars. But for a lot of people, particularly young people, a car is more of a nuisance than anything else at this point. The rideshare app thing is an interesting interim solution, though I believe the markets will likely push us into a world where autonomous vehicles pick people up and drop people off more than traditional cars at some point.


    I used to love cars, but have grown to dislike them. Mainly due to having wasted so much of my life in traffic, having experience so much constant aggrivation. Having to spend so much of my time trapped in a metal cage, stuck on the road, with no option to complete the trip as traffic dictates. Driving to the mountain is freedom, but most of the experience is the miserable experience of being trapped.

    I will always want to own a car, but I wish I could make it an exception. I used to live near a train station ,and be able to walk to the pub and nearby source of entertainment. I'd catch the train to the city instead of driving, walk to the pub, it felt far freer.

    Ridesharing is a poor solution, as we still need the car. We need to stop thinking of the problem as one of how to make the trip, but how to design things so the trip is no longer necessary.

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution.
    We need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not
    car centric.

    The only reason I am doubtful here is because of the amount of infrastructure that would be required to rethink transportation to this degree. Having roads, highways, etc., will probably be a big consideration for how things evolve.

    We are going to have to move away from fossil uels, and electric cars have their own issues. They are better, but still generally poor. I don't see a good long term future for cars. Eventually, cities which are car based will die, it just doesn't seem sustainable. It will be VERY costly to fix this, but that is the price we pay for servicing this vehicle for far longer than it deserved. We just didn't think long term. Knowing that fossil fuels, that oil would eventually be on their way out, we still designed cities around vehicles which really are products of the oil age. Short sightedness at its finest.

    I think we'll see the well serviced areas, where everything is close, jobs are close will prosper and the urban wastelands will languish and drop socio-economically. I'm already seeing this in Melbourne, especially as younger people are turning their back on the surburban hellscape. People are seeing the writing on the wall for the car based suburban model.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 07:52:00
    esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Strange. For most any "car guy" that I ever knew, doing at least *some* of the maintenance, and actually *DRIVING* the car were major points in *being* a car guy. I generally enjoy driving, a lot.

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't
    enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd
    gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    Not everybody lives in a large city. That's not an issue for many
    folks.

    Also, your scenario above makes one a slave to the entity that owns and operates the automatic car, whether that's a private enterprise or a government. Either way is a scary thing, to me. I'm not eager to give away still more of my freedom and become dependent on something else.

    You already have to pay for gas, insurance, licensing, not to
    mention the cost of a car that will (with infrequent exceptions)
    only ever depreciate in value.

    Yes, all true. But.... I own the car, and I can use it whenever and
    wherever I want to, and enjoy doing it. Freedom. Independence. In the
    end, probably cheaper, too.

    But I digress. The markets will
    decide all of this and the markets will belong to the next
    generation before long. And the next generation grew up spoiled
    with Uber and Lyft and has less of a need for owning a car. They
    have an entirely different frame of reference. The rate of
    actually getting a driver's license is on a significant decline.
    It's fascinating to watch.

    See above regarding "not everybody lives in a metropolis".


    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 10:43:59
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:59 pm

    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to commute for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we could

    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    A friend of mine is head of IT at a large staffing company. They monitor
    all their people. I've seen the dashboard. He has information of what exactly they are doing. It's better than looking over their shoulder. It shows time off task, how long they are writing emails, what programs they have open. This accountant lady was playing an online game where you grow pot a fucking day long.

    working from home is great for the workers, but companies want to keep an eye on their people.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 10:47:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:25 pm

    I do own a car. I'm not against cars completely, I'm saying that they have become necessary for EVERYTHING. Having to rely on a car to go anywhere is a nightmare. I have lived without a car, and in some cities it is viable, if they have good public transport and amenities nearby.

    Cars made things easier? All things? Consider the cost of the car, fuel, insurance, registration, servicing, for the pleasure of sitting an hour each way in traffic because urban design was based on the car being the primary mode of transport. Do the calculation as to how many hours you would need to work to pay for the car and its infrastructure, and deduct that from the time you same. The advantage isn't as great as you might thing. No need to


    I've been without a car in my 20s. it sucked. I've been on both sides. Now I have 3 cars I can use. I'd never go back.
    I already wrote down how much I spend on my cars and it's not much.

    another thing is think how long you spend waiting for a bus to come by. In my case i had to leave really early to be there on time. if i took a later bus i was very late.

    I would never go without a car and I live in an urban area. I've also vacationed in areas where you absolutely need a vehicle. It's an hour drive to get to anything. this is here dollar general in the usa thrives.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:43:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:32 pm

    is best done by a car. Groceries, sometimes, but we have terrible urban design where the avialability of groceries is centralised to a few large supermarkets in commercial areas. Why not intersperce residential areas with commercial? More smaller corner general stores? I look at the new

    That depends on the area. I'm about a 5 minute drive from my nearest grocery store, and in the past, I've generally lived fairly close to a grocery store, so I think a lot of places are designed where that's the case. Where I live, many times when I've seen residential areas far from a grocery store, it has usually been very rural areas where things are spread out fairly far, or people living in farm communities where there isn't much around them but farm land, and that sort of thing.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:46:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:59 pm

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to commute for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we could get management from previous generations to just accept remote work as a reality and move on :)

    If I mainly worked from home, I think I'd feel stir-crazy after a while. Sometimes I just like getting out in order to do something (such as work). However, lately I do feel like I wouldn't mind working from home more often. I could do that with my job, but my employer prefers people to be in the office when possible.

    Eh, I dunno. I love cars, I will probably always own cars. But for a lot of people, particularly young people, a car is more of a nuisance than anything else at this point. The rideshare app thing is an interesting

    How are cars a nuisance to young people?

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:47:59
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Gamgee on Mon Sep 05 2022 11:05 pm

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    I don't like driving in rush hour either. An autonomous car would make it easier, but I'd still rather not sit in a car during rush hour. I feel like being stuck in traffic is a waste of time.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:49:43
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:22 am

    i strip away the old debris
    that hides a shining car
    a brilliant red barchetta
    from a better, vanished time
    fire up the willing engine
    responding with a roar
    tires spitting gravel
    i commit my weekly crime...


    Wind, in my hair..
    Shifting and drifting..
    Mechanical music..
    Adrenalin surge..

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:52:17
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:52 am

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't
    enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd
    gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    Not everybody lives in a large city. That's not an issue for many
    folks.

    Yes, but many people do live in large urban areas, so it is an issue for those people.

    Even the area I live in isn't really considered very large compared to other cities, but traffic still sucks pretty bad here sometimes.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 10:51:06
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:35 pm

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could all drive everywhere so we don't need to walk or exert ourselves. Probably explains all the obesity and poor health I see around me.

    i was still fat and carrying my groceries for a 20 minute walk years ago.
    it didn't help any for losing weight.

    I'm fat now. I could still outwork, outlift and bust my ass more than most of you guys. I've taken a bunch of physicals and health exams and my numbers are all good. not all fat people are my 600lb life people. I am not passing out when going up flights of stairs.

    us farmboy football player types are out there.
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 11:44:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:25 am

    Personally, I like having a personal car that won't get shut off because the company's network can't see it due to poor cell reception or lack of related cell partnerships.

    Which reminds me. I bought a Lexus in 2018 (my wife's vehicle). It has a ton of features, like the ability to monitor it via my phone, remote start, lock doors, track it if it's stolen, etc all via cellular networks.

    3G cellular networks.

    3G is getting shut off in a few months, so all those features will just no longer work as of November 1st. Remote start is really the big one, and trying to do it from the keyfob is unreliable at best.

    Toyota (The Lexus parent company) thus far has refused to even offer any kind of upgrade so these services could continue to be used. I'm told that some other companies that have similar issues have either issued free updates (apparently OnStar/Chevy was able to do it via software) or hardware upgrades, others have a solution that you may have to pay for. But Toyota's done absolutely nothing. We just lose access to those features.

    I shit you not, the cars that use 2G networks (older 2004-2010 models) will still work through the end of this year.

    I can't imagine how something like this would wreak havoc on an atonomous vehicle system.

    DaiTengu

    ... The time to relax is when you don't have time for it.

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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 11:51:44
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Sep 05 2022 12:09 pm

    i have no idea what a fucking fip is.

    F*cking Illinois Person. Not everybody from Illinois is one. You'll know them as soon you seen them driving on the road or when they open their mouths. They address the locals as if they were slack jawed yokels, and act like they own everything. In the movie The Great Outdoors, there is a scene where they introduce Dan Akroyd's character by showing the Illinois plate on the front of a Mercedes. Nearly everybody on the crowd yelled, "FIP!"

    FIPS are Illinois tourists of the worst degree. It seems like everyone has at least one next door whose kids set off fireworks during work nights starting halfway through June until halfway through August. When the FIPS are in town, the prices all go up. The overpriced antiques stores along Red Arrow Hwy down by New Buffalo love them.

    On the other side of the lake from you, we call thim "FIBs" or "FIBTABs"
    Fucking Illinois Bastards or Fucking Illinois Bastards Towing A Boat

    Autumn in Door County is a goddamn nightmare. I'm pretty sure everyone from the north and northwest sides of Chicago drive up here over the course of a couple weeks.

    DaiTengu

    ... A hunch is creativity trying to tell you something.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:21:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:59 pm

    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really p us generations to just accept remote work as a reality and move on :)

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    Eh, I dunno. I love cars, I will probably always own cars. But for a lot of markets will likely push us into a world where autonomous vehicles pick peop

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. W need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not car centric.

    The only reason I am doubtful here is because of the amount of infrastructur

    I've tried car pooling or ride sharing over the years, but he people who need to leave their car with their spouse on occasion lived far enough away it wasn't cost effective, or I ended up doinga ll the driving out of my way to pick up the other person. I didn't save anything.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 08:30:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Moondog on Mon Sep 05 2022 11:08 pm

    I mentioned in other threads I live in the country, and road conditions involve uneven roads due to potholes and repaired potholes. Some roads are partial paved, and transistions from dirt to pavement or gravel canplace a car out of control if you're going too fast. i imagine conditions like these would make autonomous driving difficult. Same applies of there is a coat of snow on the road, and the ditches are covered so there's no telling where the sides of the road begin or end. GPS would be very important then, and bad weather would impair it's accuracy.

    You may be interested to know that the military is investing heavily into of

    Miltary GPS runs at a higher strength signal than commercial GPS. it is less
    a victim to really bad weather.

    To the military, autonomous diving would be a great improvement. Imagine a convo that is automonous. No drivers to be killed. Imagine an ambulance
    thaty could run with the driver injured. Smaller utility vehicles could haul injured or more ammo to troops.

    It's too bad the tests on the big dog have been halted. A more quiet power source has to be created. The gas or diesel that ran the generator was
    really lound. It was cool because it could be loaded up like a pack mule and take trails and climb rocks a utility vehicle couldn't.

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  • From Thumper@VERT/THEWASTE to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 09:17:00
    Moondog wrote to MRO <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Sep 04 2022 01:38 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:12 am

    th
    I'm in SW Michigan. From the shore of Lake Michigan we can see Chicago least Sears Tower and city skyline) from 60 miles away due west.

    SWM is a tourist area. Wineries and Micro Breweries and Distillerys have taken over. FIPS have summer homes and invade every weekend. I94 is loaded with FIP cars and there is a long line going into Waren Dunes Stat Park.

    i have no idea what a fucking fip is.

    F*cking Illinois Person. Not everybody from Illinois is one. You'll
    know them as soon you seen them driving on the road or when they open their mouths. They address the locals as if they were slack jawed
    yokels, and act like they own everything. In the movie The Great Outdoors, there is a scene where they introduce Dan Akroyd's character
    by showing the Illinois plate on the front of a Mercedes. Nearly everybody on the crowd yelled, "FIP!"

    FIPS are Illinois tourists of the worst degree. It seems like everyone has at least one next door whose kids set off fireworks during work
    nights starting halfway through June until halfway through August.
    When the FIPS are in town, the prices all go up. The overpriced
    antiques stores along Red Arrow Hwy down by New Buffalo love them.

    We have what we call BATS here (I still call them "Flatlanders). "Bay Area Transfers". Just went through a long weekend of dealing with them. Even shooting off firework"s up here in the hills where the fire danger is extreme. Can't get near the lake or beaches as they take over everything. Those that move up here bring their stupidity with them and want to treat the hills like the Bay Area. During the Covid lockdowns it was like a huge party up here for weeks and weeks. Stores were emptied, fights at the gas stations....





    ... It's best to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 10:49:16
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:43 am

    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    I've heard that since the covid lockdowns, some companies have actually wanted to go to working from home permanently, because it could save the company money since they wouldn't have to pay a lease on an office building & related costs anymore. But some companies do prefer their employees to come into the office.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 13:01:23
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 08:47 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Gamgee on Mon Sep 05 2022 11:05 pm

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    I don't like driving in rush hour either. An autonomous car would make it easier, but I'd still rather not sit in a car during rush hour. I feel like being stuck in traffic is a waste of time.


    i just take the back roads. in google maps i go into navigation settings and turn off the highways.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to DaiTengu on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 13:07:28
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Moondog on Tue Sep 06 2022 11:51 am


    Autumn in Door County is a goddamn nightmare. I'm pretty sure everyone from the north and northwest sides of Chicago drive up here over the course of a couple weeks.

    DaiTengu

    it's funny when it's a little cold. they drive up and park on the frozen lakes for festivals and their cars sink in

    https://wpcdn.us-east-1.vip.tn-cloud.net/www.news8000.com/content/uploads/2019/12/winterfestcars-jpg_4833136_ver1-0.jpg


    https://preview.tinyurl.com/2z8xgtng

    it happens almost every year.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 13:36:34
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:49 am

    I've heard that since the covid lockdowns, some companies have actually wanted to go to working from home permanently, because it could save the company money since they wouldn't have to pay a lease on an office building & related costs anymore. But some companies do prefer their employees to come into the office.


    they have have spoke like they were going to do that, but I am pretty sure they wont do it. my old boss got tons done by working at home but they said to come back in. without people dropping by and bothering him all day he was very productive.

    it's good for the worker to go in there. it's better to be noticed instead of being just another number. why not just replace the person with someone working
    remotely from india.

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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 09:14:16
    On 9/4/22 16:08, Nightfox wrote:

    I'd be curious to see (or make) a cost analysis of owning a car
    vs. not owning one and using ride/taxi services. I wonder how
    it would cost to continually use ride services and public
    transportation vs. owning a car. Owning your own car is very
    convenient; I like being able to get in my car and go wherever I
    want, when I want.

    If you don't have to work in an office every day, or if you live near
    your work, then it's better to not have a car and ride share. If you
    commute over 30 minutes each way, and take road trips through the year
    or travel more, you're better off having transportation.

    There's the freedom matter as well, not to mention shopping becomes more constrained if you like to shop in stores.

    Personally, I'd rather keep my car(s)... although most likely my vision
    will eventually get bad enough that driving isn't as safe for me. Which
    is a concern for my work as much as anything else.
    --
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 14:24:00
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't
    enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour. I'd
    gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    Not everybody lives in a large city. That's not an issue for many
    folks.

    Yes, but many people do live in large urban areas, so it is an
    issue for those people.

    Agreed! But... my statement above is still true.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 15:05:09
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Gamgee on Mon Sep 05 2022 11:05 pm

    You already have to pay for gas, insurance, licensing, not to mention the co tion before long. And the next generation grew up spoiled with Uber and Lyft cinating to watch.

    Nevertheless, neither you nor I will decide any of this, the markets will.

    The markets are not an abstract entity floating in the sky. They are no Monopoly boards being played in an alternate dimension. The markets are US buying and selling, plain and simple.

    The new generations around here are not giving up on cars because of infrastructure concerns or because they are using transport-as-a-service. They are not getting cars because they can't afford transport and it is therefore much more cost efficient for them to borrow uncle Francisco's van when needed.

    But then they cannot afford housing either and have to borrow it, and we don't say it is the end of houses.

    --
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 15:16:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:25 pm

    transport because we can just be lazy and assume everyone will drive everywh rban model. Urban sprawl and isolation.

    People are rejecting this, preferring to live in the denser inner city, with


    It seems to me that your problem comes from living in an overpopulated area rather than because cars exist.

    MOst people complaining about traffic issues and having to drive to work live in big cities. In Madrid so many people live in suburbs and bedroom-neighbourhoods but they all decide to drive to the center of Madrid at once for work at dawn.

    Mid and small sized towns just don't generate this environment. If you take the capitals of the Autonomies surrounding Madrid, they are very much navegable without their administrations having taken any effort to make them navegable. In fact, some are very navegable despite the fact their autonomies have worsened traffic by trying to manipulate it. Heck, Toledo features middle-age style streets which are barely wide enough for a car, but there are not bad traffic issues because the place is not massificated.


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Tracker1 on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 13:21:13
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:14 am

    If you don't have to work in an office every day, or if you live near your work, then it's better to not have a car and ride share. If you commute over 30 minutes each way, and take road trips through the year
    or travel more, you're better off having transportation.

    There's the freedom matter as well, not to mention shopping becomes more constrained if you like to shop in stores.

    If you order your groceries & everything online, I'd think the delivery fees and tips could add up significantly.

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 15:22:08
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:32 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 01:49 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fru & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need f larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would certainly also take longer for me get to work.

    Nightfox
    Of course the car is useful, it just sucks when used as a universal means of roceries is centralised to a few large supermarkets in commercial areas. Wh g centre" where all the shops are. A traffic snarl, shops lost in a sea of

    We're sold on a fake efficiency. We don't really see the costs involved in
    about our children outside the house. The car has many shortcomings that w

    ---

    The car is not necessary. During Spanish fascism there were lots of people who could not afford a car. If they wanted to go to the market next town they just took a donkey and dedicated a whole day for the trip.

    Places such as Madrid have convenience stores, grocery's and markets conveniently placed, but this does not void the need for proper transport at all. In fact Madrid competes with Barcelona for the position as the Most Hostile City to Human Life in Spain.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 15:44:41
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:14 am

    If you don't have to work in an office every day, or if you live near
    your work, then it's better to not have a car and ride share. If you commute over 30 minutes each way, and take road trips through the year
    or travel more, you're better off having transportation.


    The real issue with ridesharing is that oftentimes you end up waiting for the other rideshares to show up. Sometimes they don't show up and they don't bother to notify you. I used to rideshare a lot in the past and, while it cuts costs, it is such a pain in the ass at times. A regular bus line is so much better (if
    it exists) despite the fact bus lines have a tendency to be poor solutions.

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  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 15:56:00
    I've heard that since the covid lockdowns, some companies have actually wanted to go to working from home permanently, because it could save the company money since they wouldn't have to pay a lease on an office building & related costs anymore. But some companies do prefer their employees to come into the office.

    Yeah, I work out in the field but I know people who work for the company I work for that had an "office job," most of them work from home and I guess they meet every so often in person at the office. I know my company in the years even before Covid started to get rid of the bldgs they rent and moved everyone into bldgs they own for the most part. At least in the region Im in.

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 16:53:07
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Tracker1 on Tue Sep 06 2022 03:44 pm

    The real issue with ridesharing is that oftentimes you end up waiting for the other rideshares to show up. Sometimes they don't show up and they don't bother to notify you. I used to rideshare a lot in the past and, while it cuts costs, it is such a pain in the ass at times. A regular bus line is so much better (if
    it exists) despite the fact bus lines have a tendency to be poor solutions.

    just like the other guy mentioned, i've had experience with rideshare and it's usually slanted. i'm going out of my way for another person or they're going out of their way for me.

    and I'd go to pick a dude up and i would be sitting there and he wouldnt tell me he quit or got fired.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 19:01:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:25 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:05 am

    you're very wrong. infact, cars changed and improved society for the better. in the usa we even have our weekend due to car manufacturing.

    The car is overrated, a pain the ass and did to transportation what Windows did to computing. Popularised it but also retarded it.

    cars made everyting easier and better.


    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. need to rethink transportation, and make cities human centric and not centric.

    our entire world revolves around oil production, much of that going into vehicles.

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the spac and infrastructure that cars require.

    we already have that. we can also dedicate a lane just to autonomous vehicles. they did that in my region anyways for foxcon.

    so i take it you don't OWN a vehicle?

    I do own a car. I'm not against cars completely, I'm saying that they have ransport and amenities nearby.

    Cars made things easier? All things? Consider the cost of the car, fuel, in alculation as to how many hours you would need to work to pay for the car an ic transport because we can just be lazy and assume everyone will drive ever an urban model. Urban sprawl and isolation.

    People are rejecting this, preferring to live in the denser inner city, with

    Without mass production and mass adoption of the car, we'd have better urban


    The US is way too open in space for public transportation. About every five
    or six miles there is a deserted building or collection of buildings that used
    to be a town or a small general store. These little towns dried up because you could buy more for less at supermarkets. the ssmall stores that had gas pumps could not compete with gas stations with multiple pumps. The town dodownn the road from me only existed because a rail line went through, and they had to move the existing town a half mile down to acces the railroad. Whien the private line dried up, the rails were pulled and people would not stop any more in the town. Progress killed small towns and travelling to a larger town for better services didn't require an all day trip. Cars made
    that longer distance travel possible.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 19:09:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:32 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 01:49 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fru & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still be a need f larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would certainly also take longer for me get to work.

    Nightfox
    Of course the car is useful, it just sucks when used as a universal means of groceries is centralised to a few large supermarkets in commercial areas. W ing centre" where all the shops are. A traffic snarl, shops lost in a sea o

    We're sold on a fake efficiency. We don't really see the costs involved in y about our children outside the house. The car has many shortcomings that

    Supermarkets killed the general stores, and the big box stores and malls
    killed downtown. why go to the overpriced store with limited inventory when the specialty stores at the mall or plaza have better prices and better variety? the little stores can only compete if they are more than just a retailer. They have to offer services the big stores don't have. i would go to a local gun shop over going to a Cabelas or Dunhams for getting better information or gunsmithing services. If i wanted cheap ammo that only a
    giant corporation could offer because it could buy in larger volumes than mom and pop could ever afford, the big box is my choice.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 19:12:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:35 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Sep 05 2022 04:22 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceri unless I used grocery delivery services to deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fruits & vegetables & such, most of the time. There will also still b need for larger vehicles for transporting large items such as furnitur home appliances, etc..


    yeah, imagine carrying a case of bottled water and all your groceries fro the bus stop to your door. it's a good workout, but tedious.

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could all d

    The nearest store to me is a Dollar General, and it is 7 miles away. Walking would take forever.

    ---
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:08:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue Sep 06 2022 01:07 pm

    Autumn in Door County is a goddamn nightmare. I'm pretty sure everyone
    from the north and northwest sides of Chicago drive up here over the
    course of a couple weeks.

    it's funny when it's a little cold. they drive up and park on the frozen lakes for festivals and their cars sink in

    https://wpcdn.us-east-1.vip.tn-cloud.net/www.news8000.com/content/uploads/ 2019/12/winterfestcars-jpg_4833136_ver1-0.jpg

    fucking Lake Geneva.

    I mean, people do that the Winnebago chain too. There's a guy in Fond Du Lac who has a whole company built around fishing cars out of the lake. I'm pretty sure he makes all his money from December to March, then just relaxes the rest of the year.

    DaiTengu

    ... I intend to live forever. So far, so good.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:13:00
    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    Ha! Yep. Justifying their existence lol.

    A friend of mine is head of IT at a large staffing company. They monitor all their people. I've seen the dashboard. He has information of what exactly they are doing. It's better than looking over their shoulder. It shows time off task, how long they are writing emails, what programs
    they have open. This accountant lady was playing an online game where
    you grow pot a fucking day long.

    Businesses will have to evolve to focus on outcomes, i.e., did this person deliver on what they said they would. Companies that do this will have a difficult time attracting top talent. This equates to something people call "work theater" instead of actual work.

    working from home is great for the workers, but companies want to keep
    an eye on their people.

    Yep, therein be the rub. It's unfortunate. Alas.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:16:00
    If I mainly worked from home, I think I'd feel stir-crazy after a while. Sometimes I just like getting out in order to do something (such as
    work). However, lately I do feel like I wouldn't mind working from home more often. I could do that with my job, but my employer prefers people to be in the office when possible.

    To each his own, and I agree that full time WFH is not doable for a lot of people for a variety of reasons, not least of which you mention above. But the other side of the coin is that many people prefer WFH or some sort of hybrid schedule. Hopefully the businesses evolve to give employees more of a choice.

    How are cars a nuisance to young people?

    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a horrible financial investment, you have to maintain them, license/pay taxes, insure them, gas, etc...young people grew up in a world where a ride is given on demand when you use an app on your phone.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:17:00
    I don't like driving in rush hour either. An autonomous car would make
    it easier, but I'd still rather not sit in a car during rush hour. I
    feel like being stuck in traffic is a waste of time.

    Yep, you and me both. I hate traffic. It's time I could be working or spending time with my family. To me a huge WFH/hybrid work schedule advantage is decreasing traffic...during the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns, driving anywhere at any time was an absolute joy lol.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:20:00
    Miltary GPS runs at a higher strength signal than commercial GPS. it is less a victim to really bad weather.

    GPS is also frequently denied to military vehicles due to circumstances like jamming. So an autonomous vehicle augmenting a manned convoy needs to operate without GPS.

    To the military, autonomous diving would be a great improvement.
    Imagine a convo that is automonous. No drivers to be killed. Imagine
    an ambulance thaty could run with the driver injured. Smaller utility vehicles could haul injured or more ammo to troops.

    The only problem is that militaries exist to fight wars, and a robot fleet fighting a war is a slippery slope. All the conversations happening now regarding military autonomy is that for anything kinetic, you'll need to have a human in the loop.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 17:24:00
    The markets are not an abstract entity floating in the sky. They are no Monopoly boards being played in an alternate dimension. The markets are
    US buying and selling, plain and simple.

    Correct. And autonomy is the next major shift in markets, followed by significant changes to transportation in urban areas, decreasing the need for individual people to own cars. The markets respond to the consumers, not vice versa. Emerging markets demonstrate that fewer people see car ownership as a meaningful investment than in times past.

    Thanks for the lesson, though ;) For what it's worth, I work in this industry and am happy to speak about it from a somewhat informed basis.

    The new generations around here are not giving up on cars because of infrastructure concerns or because they are using
    transport-as-a-service. They are not getting cars because they can't afford transport and it is therefore much more cost efficient for them
    to borrow uncle Francisco's van when needed.

    Interesting, but that's not the overwhelming trend. The overwhelming trend is that young people are less interested in car ownership because getting from point a to point b with all the hassle of car ownership is achievable.

    But then they cannot afford housing either and have to borrow it, and we don't say it is the end of houses.

    Housing is a smart investment; car ownership is not. This is not apples to apples.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 20:43:00
    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a horrible financial investment, you have to maintain them, license/pay taxes,
    insure them, gas, etc...young people grew up in a world where a ride is given on demand when you use an app on your phone.

    Im sure there could be a lot of different outcomes. But it would be interesting if someone bought/used a car for a certain amount a time. Added that all up. And then for the same amount of time just used services like UBER or whatever and added that up.Trying to stick to the same routine roughly. I wonder what would actually cost more? My kids have used UBER quite a bit, I have never, So I dont really know the costs, sometimes when they would tell me real quick about the ride and how much it cost, I thought it was expensive, but then sometimes it seemed they got a really good deal. Not sure why. Cars are very expensive, like you said, when adding _EVERYTHING_ up, its more than you think..

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... A program is used to turn data into error messages.
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 20:48:00
    Yep, you and me both. I hate traffic. It's time I could be working or spending time with my family. To me a huge WFH/hybrid work schedule advantage is decreasing traffic...during the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns, driving anywhere at any time was an absolute joy lol.

    One of the very few positives of my job is I have a company vehicle. Yes, it has a GPS and some other device that tracks speeds and probably everything else. But the good thing is, I work what we call 2nd shift, 1030am-7pm. My work truck leaves my driveway at 1030am and usually is pulling in my driveway at 7:01pm. So like you said, its more family time etc... and less miles on my personal truck....

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... My tagline could eat your tagline for breakfast
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 20:20:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 05:13 pm

    of what exactly they are doing. It's better than looking over their shoulder. It shows time off task, how long they are writing emails, what programs
    they have open. This accountant lady was playing an online game where you grow pot a fucking day long.

    Businesses will have to evolve to focus on outcomes, i.e., did this person deliver on what they said they would. Companies that do this will have a difficult time attracting top talent. This equates to something people call "work theater" instead of actual work.

    well in this person's case her output was next to zero and she was complaining about not having time to do her duties. in actuality he was playing farmville all day long but it was pot.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 18:46:55
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 05:16 pm

    How are cars a nuisance to young people?

    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a horrible financial investment, you have to maintain them, license/pay taxes, insure them, gas, etc...young people grew up in a world where a ride is given on demand when you use an app on your phone.

    Those same things apply to many things.. And regarding having to buy them - Do young people these days expect to get things for free?

    Also, I only remember the app-based ride services appearing within the last 10 years or so.. Unless they've been around longer, if someone is used to app-based ride services, they might not even be old enough to drive yet? Besides, taxi services have been around a lot longer and we haven't seen a bunch of people want to take taxis instead of owning their own car. Taxis and things like Uber, Lyft, etc. can be expensive.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 18:49:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:12 pm

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could
    all d

    The nearest store to me is a Dollar General, and it is 7 miles away. Walking would take forever.

    He was talking about taking public transportation. Does your town not have any public transportation?

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 18:51:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Tue Sep 06 2022 05:24 pm

    Housing is a smart investment; car ownership is not. This is not apples to apples.

    I don't think you can even really talk about a car as an investment. If you're buying a car to try to invest, then that's just a bad idea. A car is meant to be used - The usefulness is in transportation, and if you can make use of it, then I think you'll get its money's worth.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 20:41:00
    esc wrote to Nightfox <=-

    How are cars a nuisance to young people?

    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a
    horrible financial investment, you have to maintain them,
    license/pay taxes, insure them, gas, etc...young people grew up
    in a world where a ride is given on demand when you use an app on
    your phone.

    You are somehow equating *YOUR* experience/knowledge, which seems to be
    solely based on huge metropolitan areas (the Bay Area?). I can assure
    you that young people in my world do/did not grow up in a world where
    they get a ride with an app on their phone.

    I say again: NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN A FREAKIN URBAN CRAP-HOLE!!!



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Moondog on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 11:32:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to esc on Mon Sep 05 2022 09:55 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 02:39 pm

    The car's days are numbered, and electric cars are not the solution. We nee

    You have to remember, autonomous vehicles will still need all the space and

    Everything in life is somewhere else, and you need a car to get there.

    Indeed. We live close enough to one of my kiddos schools that she could
    walk, but the other school is 15 miles away. My wife's work place is
    almost 22 miles away. I pay to have our groceries delivered, but we need
    to have at least two vehicles to get to the places we need to go.

    I work remotely, so I don't have to worry 'bout getting to work. :)



    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Irish_Monk on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 21:11:00
    One of the very few positives of my job is I have a company vehicle.
    Yes, it has a GPS and some other device that tracks speeds and probably everything else. But the good thing is, I work what we call 2nd shift, 1030am-7pm. My work truck leaves my driveway at 1030am and usually is pulling in my driveway at 7:01pm. So like you said, its more family time etc... and less miles on my personal truck....

    Ah, nice. I live 45 mins (give or take) from my office and I work at a tech company which doesn't have traditional "hours" but there is some sentiment from upper level management that we should be present at the office. Today my first meeting was 6:30am, and my final meeting was 4:30pm, and there were no 45+ minute gaps between meetings for me to drive to work. Someone gave me grief about it today. It's frustrating. Granted he had his first meeting at 7am and he lives an hour from the office, but he also is young and doesn't have a family and he thinks that type of pace/commitment is acceptable.

    I'll continue to act in defiance out of what I believe to be correct and am happy to defend my position if push comes to shove.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 21:12:00
    well in this person's case her output was next to zero and she was complaining about not having time to do her duties. in actuality he was playing farmville all day long but it was pot.

    Haha. Damn. Wonder if she think she can ask for a letter of recommendation. What a bozo.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 21:14:00
    Those same things apply to many things.. And regarding having to buy
    them - Do young people these days expect to get things for free?

    Nope. The services they use are ones that cost money.

    Also, I only remember the app-based ride services appearing within the last 10 years or so.. Unless they've been around longer, if someone is used to app-based ride services, they might not even be old enough to drive yet? Besides, taxi services have been around a lot longer and we haven't seen a bunch of people want to take taxis instead of owning
    their own car. Taxis and things like Uber, Lyft, etc. can be expensive.

    People graduating from college now are people that aren't as interested in car ownership, to put it in perspective. People that came of age during an era when it was cheaper and easier to spend your minimum wage on carpooling with folks in an Uber vs spending all your cash on owning a car, basically.

    Taxis can be expensive, sure, as can Ubers, but a car is typically the second biggest investment a person will make, and it's one that will be a money pit every single time. *shrug*

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Nightfox on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 21:17:00
    I don't think you can even really talk about a car as an investment. If you're buying a car to try to invest, then that's just a bad idea. A
    car is meant to be used - The usefulness is in transportation, and if
    you can make use of it, then I think you'll get its money's worth.

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the fact that it's typically the second biggest purchase a person will make (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate, the car will depreciate. The car is useful for transportation but there are alternatives, which is I think the thing I'm trying to convey that the market is trending toward supporting.

    You may think you get your money's worth, but more and more people are disagreeing with that position each day. Anyway I'm not here trying to convince you not to buy a car, merely relaying what is happening in an industry that is highly relevant to my day to day work.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 21:19:00
    You are somehow equating *YOUR* experience/knowledge, which seems to be solely based on huge metropolitan areas (the Bay Area?). I can assure you that young people in my world do/did not grow up in a world where they get a ride with an app on their phone.

    I'm equating data, because in the world where I work, data is what drives things, not anecdotes from me or you or anyone else. Young people in your world will probably still buy cars, young people in urban environments are trending in the opposite direction, and there are more young people in urban environments than anywhere else.

    I say again: NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN A FREAKIN URBAN CRAP-HOLE!!!

    Why are you being so combative, anyway? Nobody attacked you or where you live. Don't be such a snowflake ;)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 19:28:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:43 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 10:59 pm

    The mass production of cars, and the design of cities around that assumption that everyone has, or should have, a car was one of the biggest urban design mistakes that humanity has ever made. An utter disaster.

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should reall put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to comm for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we cou

    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    A friend of mine is head of IT at a large staffing company. They monitor all their people. I've seen the dashboard. He has information of what exactl playing an online game where you grow pot a fucking day long.

    working from home is great for the workers, but companies want to keep an ey

    You cannot manage what you cannot measure. some managers take this too seriously, and expect employees to account for every second they do with factory workers. Funny thing is some line workers could actually benefit
    from itemizing every task. Boxing and unboxing parts draws away from producti vity. Equipment maintenence and cleaning also draws away time. Stupid meetin gs that are not porduction oriented takes away time. Itemization will
    actually rasie numbers because the manager realizes when the machine isn't
    down or when the employee has to fiddle with housekeeping and boxes, they're getting quite a bit done.

    When I used to repair circuit boards, there was an average time calculated based on how many we would fix in a week. Some issues were simple and took five minutes, while others might take an hour or more. Problem boards that took a long time would get set aside to traige and diagnose and separate the quick fixes from the difficult fixes. The average may be 70+ board a week,
    but the daily output would vary due to time spent tracing signals.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Tuesday, September 06, 2022 19:34:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: DaiTengu to Moondog on Tue Sep 06 2022 11:44 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:25 am

    Personally, I like having a personal car that won't get shut off becaus the company's network can't see it due to poor cell reception or lack o related cell partnerships.

    Which reminds me. I bought a Lexus in 2018 (my wife's vehicle). It has a t

    3G cellular networks.

    3G is getting shut off in a few months, so all those features will just no l

    Toyota (The Lexus parent company) thus far has refused to even offer any kin s able to do it via software) or hardware upgrades, others have a solution t

    I shit you not, the cars that use 2G networks (older 2004-2010 models) will

    I can't imagine how something like this would wreak havoc on an atonomous ve

    DaiTengu

    ... The time to relax is when you don't have time for it.


    It sounds like you may have to pursue a third party alternative service, if such a thing exists.

    My 2009 Scion has an Ipod ready stereo that won't connect to an Iphone
    through the supplied cable. i doubt Scion/ Toyota will help unless I buy a
    new car.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 04:00:04
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 05:16 pm


    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a horrible financial

    I think you are overestimating the reach of transport-as-a-service by a long shot.

    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone. We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on private transport.

    Everybody here is talking about transport-as-a-service killing private transport, but here is this:

    * I am one of those filthy millennials who are supposed to live glued to their electronic devices.
    * My friends are of those filthy millennials who are supposed to live glued to their devices.
    * Every single one of my friends has a private car for work, with one exception.
    * The guy who has no car lacks it because he decided to invest heavily in a house near his workplace instead. He can barely afford it.
    * None of us uses transport-as-aservice as a substitute for private transport. We may use non-private transport for recreational trips in which we don't expect to use a car on destination (ie. we go on a trip somewhere, we take the bus to reach that place).

    The government is also on a crusade against non-taxi transport as a service, so I really don't see it gaining much traction out of big, big, big cities (which should be avoided like the plague anyway).





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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 04:18:10
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:14 pm


    Taxis can be expensive, sure, as can Ubers, but a car is typically the secon


    Something that saves you money is not a money pit if it saves you from throwing even more money at different money pits.

    If a car allows you to grab a job at a location you could not reach, a car is both a smart investment and a money generating machine (since it allows you to generate a salary).

    If a car allows you to make order deliveries, it is a money generating machine and a smart investment.

    For anything that sees regular use, ownership is usually a smarter investment than rental. If I throw money at owning a building for setting a business in, after the money disappears I am left with a building. If I throw money at renting it, after the money disappears I am left with... nothing.

    This is the danger of Stuff-as-a-service models: they are abyssal value propositions. After you spend a year paying your Netflix subscription, once the service goes down or you stop paying, the money has disappeared into a hole and nothing is left. If you spend the money in building a money library instead, once you are finished spending you'll have a library instead of your money.

    Well, with transportation services it is pretty much the same. Once you are done with a car you own, you can pass it to your kids. Try doing that with a public transport service.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 04:28:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:17 pm

    I don't think you can even really talk about a car as an investment. I you're buying a car to try to invest, then that's just a bad idea. A car is meant to be used - The usefulness is in transportation, and if you can make use of it, then I think you'll get its money's worth.

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stu ake (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate orting.

    You may think you get your money's worth, but more and more people are disag
    to day work.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

    Finantial advisors here usually tell you to own your main means of production instead of renting them. A fleet of trucks you own may devaluate. A fleet of trucks you rent is worth nothing at all after the money is gone.

    Transport renting is something firms here do when their accountant tells them they need to get rid of money with expenses that can be justified.

    Besides, I doubt a car is the second biggest investment people makes since mid-to-high level education is more expensive, setting a corner business is more expensive, and healthcare that actually works is also more expensive (in the long run). I certainly spend more keeping my business up, in housing and in taxes than I spend in the car (and I am talking orders of magnitude here).

    /S
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:28:38
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 10:47 am

    I do own a car. I'm not against cars completely, I'm saying that they have become necessary for EVERYTHING. Having to
    rely on a car to go anywhere is a nightmare. I have lived without a car, and in some cities it is viable, if they have
    good public transport and amenities nearby.

    Cars made things easier? All things? Consider the cost of the car, fuel, insurance, registration, servicing, for the
    pleasure of sitting an hour each way in traffic because urban design was based on the car being the primary mode of
    transport. Do the calculation as to how many hours you would need to work to pay for the car and its infrastructure, and
    deduct that from the time you same. The advantage isn't as great as you might thing. No need to


    I've been without a car in my 20s. it sucked. I've been on both sides. Now I have 3 cars I can use. I'd never go back.
    I already wrote down how much I spend on my cars and it's not much.

    another thing is think how long you spend waiting for a bus to come by. In my case i had to leave really early to be there
    on time. if i took a later bus i was very late.

    I would never go without a car and I live in an urban area. I've also vacationed in areas where you absolutely need a
    vehicle. It's an hour drive to get to anything. this is here dollar general in the usa thrives.

    I've experienced both, frustration from long bus trips, two transfers to get to uni and back (a car was welcome), and situations where the train was far better and the car just sucked. Petrol made the car. The form of transportation the car takes, the design of roads, the whole infrastructure is a result of oil.

    Oil allowed the creation of a vehicle like the car. A vehicle which could carry its own fuel source. Without oil, the car is not viable because there isn't any good way for a vehicle which can travel in any direction independently to carry its own fuel source. Petrol is pure energy, the most energy dense form of available energy to us. Being liquid it is easily stored, and can fill any sized container effectively. Not only does petrol have a high energy density, there is no waste. The petrol itself provides the material push through combustion. Steam for example needs both a fossil fuel AND a propellant. Petrol does both. Electric cars are inferior because the energy density of the Lithium Ion batteries is lower, and the Lithium is essentially "waste", it can't be consumed as fuel. It is just a matrix to hold the charge.

    As the oil age ends, the very thing that MADE the car fades away. Cars aren't feasible driven by steam, and more problematic when driven by electricity, as that is hard to store.

    Many (not all) of the problems of reducing car use are due to design of our cities and towns. I agree completely that cars will still be, and should be part of our lives, but I view them like the floppy disk. When we had better options to store data, floppy disk drives and the disks were still available for all the tasks where the new technology and new design didn't fit.

    This is what I'm getting at. We should design for the next generation, for the post-oil age world, but not obsolete the car, just treat it as legacy technology that serves where the alternatives fail. By the way, I'm against government plans to phase out, obsolete or otherwise ban or financially punish people for keeping petrol driven cars. Some want to 'pressure' people away from them, but that is making victims from people who have no choice.

    Build choices.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:33:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 08:43 am

    is best done by a car. Groceries, sometimes, but we have terrible urban design where the avialability of groceries is
    centralised to a few large supermarkets in commercial areas. Why not intersperce residential areas with commercial?
    More smaller corner general stores? I look at the new

    That depends on the area. I'm about a 5 minute drive from my nearest grocery store, and in the past, I've generally lived
    fairly close to a grocery store, so I think a lot of places are designed where that's the case. Where I live, many times
    when I've seen residential areas far from a grocery store, it has usually been very rural areas where things are spread out
    fairly far, or people living in farm communities where there isn't much around them but farm land, and that sort of thing.

    Nightfox


    Corner stores used to be more prevalent in my home city in previous generations. You can still see in some suburbs the remnants of these stores, now closed up. In many areas there was the corner store, or "Milk Bar" as we called them. We had one around the corner from where I grew up. I could run and get milk and come back during an ad break!

    Rural areas are of course different, but Australia is quite urbanised. In fact, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere which wasn't a walk from the shops, or at least a short walk from what used to be a corner store.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:38:36
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 08:47 am

    I enjoy driving when doing it for fun, but I certainly don't enjoy driving to the airport or the office in rush hour.
    I'd gladly sit in an autonomous car in those circumstances.

    I don't like driving in rush hour either. An autonomous car would make it easier, but I'd still rather not sit in a car
    during rush hour. I feel like being stuck in traffic is a waste of time.

    Nightfox

    One time I had a 1 hour plus commute to work each day, up and back. Two hours plus a day. I calculated that each year, I spend the equivalent of almost ONE MONTH in the car. Literally one entire MONTH per year, stuck in a box, frustrated. Not one month of working days, but a full 24/7 month.

    That is truly a waste of time.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:55:41
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 03:16 pm

    transport because we can just be lazy and assume everyone will drive everywh rban model. Urban sprawl and isolation.

    People are rejecting this, preferring to live in the denser inner city, with


    It seems to me that your problem comes from living in an overpopulated area rather than because cars exist.

    MOst people complaining about traffic issues and having to drive to work live in big cities. In Madrid so many people live
    in suburbs and bedroom-neighbourhoods but they all decide to drive to the center of Madrid at once for work at dawn.

    Mid and small sized towns just don't generate this environment. If you take the capitals of the Autonomies surrounding
    Madrid, they are very much navegable without their administrations having taken any effort to make them navegable. In fact,
    some are very navegable despite the fact their autonomies have worsened traffic by trying to manipulate it. Heck, Toledo
    features middle-age style streets which are barely wide enough for a car, but there are not bad traffic issues because the
    place is not massificated.

    I do live in an overpopulated area. Melbourne (and Australia in general) has seen very, very rapid population growth, above world average, mostly due to the government maintaining a high immigration rate. This has resulted in vast urban sprawl, infrastructure stretched and clogged roads. One now faces "peak traffic" every day, including weekends.

    Smaller cities are far better in this regard, and my wife and I have contemplated moving. But cities wouldn't grow this large if it wasn't viable at all. The typical pattern is that new suburbs spring up, with little to no train connectivity, poor bus services (buses kind of suck) and no light rail. Melbourne does have a light rail system, but that is limited to the inner suburbs. The road in and out (there is often just one) becomes a bottle neck, and there are few services nearby. One suburb we looked at buying had few primary schools and NO secondary schools nearby. The closest were a fairly long drive away.

    This is exacerbated by urban planning which prioritises the car above all else. It will have to come to an end. Cars are reliant on oil, oil made the car what it is. After peak oil it will be an inferior model. Electric cars won't save it.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 21:00:48
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 03:22 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to
    deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fru & vegetables &
    such, most of the time. There will also still be a need f larger vehicles for transporting large items such as
    furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would
    certainly also take longer for me get to work.

    Nightfox
    Of course the car is useful, it just sucks when used as a universal means of roceries is centralised to a few large
    supermarkets in commercial areas. Wh g centre" where all the shops are. A traffic snarl, shops lost in a sea of

    We're sold on a fake efficiency. We don't really see the costs involved in
    about our children outside the house. The car has many shortcomings that w

    ---

    The car is not necessary. During Spanish fascism there were lots of people who could not afford a car. If they wanted to go
    to the market next town they just took a donkey and dedicated a whole day for the trip.

    Places such as Madrid have convenience stores, grocery's and markets conveniently placed, but this does not void the need
    for proper transport at all. In fact Madrid competes with Barcelona for the position as the Most Hostile City to Human Life
    in Spain.


    I think it is necessary, but it is like the floppy disk when USB and CD-ROM were on the rise. They were clearly on the way out, but there were things that the USB stick and CD-ROM couldn't do, which is why the floppy stick around for a while longer. t just wasn't AS necessary as it used to be.

    I should be clear, that I'm not saying we should eliminate the car, but rather reduce it. Make it less necessary. Make long trips less necessary. Traffic is eased simply by reducing the distance people need to drive.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 21:12:05
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:09 pm

    Without a car, I think it would be a lot more difficult to get groceries, unless I used grocery delivery services to
    deliver grocies to my house (which add costs to buying groceries). I also like picking out my own fru & vegetables &
    such, most of the time. There will also still be a need f larger vehicles for transporting large items such as
    furniture, home appliances, etc..

    Also, currently I have a fairly short drive to work. If I were to take public transportation to work, it would
    certainly also take longer for me get to work.

    Nightfox
    Of course the car is useful, it just sucks when used as a universal means of groceries is centralised to a few large
    supermarkets in commercial areas. W ing centre" where all the shops are. A traffic snarl, shops lost in a sea o

    We're sold on a fake efficiency. We don't really see the costs involved in y about our children outside the house. The
    car has many shortcomings that

    Supermarkets killed the general stores, and the big box stores and malls killed downtown. why go to the overpriced store with limited inventory when the specialty stores at the mall or plaza have
    better prices and better variety? the little stores can only compete if they are more than just a retailer. They have to
    offer services the big stores don't have. i would go to a local gun shop over going to a Cabelas or Dunhams for getting
    better information or gunsmithing services. If i wanted cheap ammo that only a
    giant corporation could offer because it could buy in larger volumes than mom and pop could ever afford, the big box is my
    choice.


    And the Internet is going to replace those stores, as you can buy things online rather than having to waltz down to the store. Supermarkets are able to really drop prices to a degree the corner store can't. Part of that is because these giant stores can really turn the screws and screw over producers. Local stores here are closing because they don't have the option of ripping off farmers, and they have high rents. High rents have closed many stores here. We no longer have a fresh fruit and veg store due to obstinate landlords. Not the only business i've seen go to the wall for that reason.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Irish_Monk on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 21:15:45
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 08:43 pm

    Im sure there could be a lot of different outcomes. But it would be interesting if someone bought/used a car for a certain
    amount a time. Added that all up. And then for the same amount of time just used services like UBER or whatever and added
    that up.Trying to stick to the same routine roughly. I wonder what would actually cost more? My kids have used UBER quite a
    bit, I have never, So I dont really know the costs, sometimes when they would tell me real quick about the ride and how much
    it cost, I thought it was expensive, but then sometimes it seemed they got a really good deal. Not sure why. Cars are very
    expensive, like you said, when adding _EVERYTHING_ up, its more than you think..

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... A program is used to turn data into error messages.

    A friend of mine made it far into his adult life without a car. He said he already had access to a car. They were yellow with "taxi" written on it. He did get a car, but still didn't use the car heavily. I'm sure he doesn't own one now. This guy isn't a bum, he's financially successful,travels the world.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 21:26:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to esc on Tue Sep 06 2022 06:51 pm

    I don't think you can even really talk about a car as an investment. If you're buying a car to try to invest, then that's
    just a bad idea. A car is meant to be used - The usefulness is in transportation, and if you can make use of it, then I
    think you'll get its money's worth.

    Nightfox

    Our family car cost $37K. Have that for 20 years, max, that is nearly $2000 a year amortised. Add to that $1000 per year for insurance, $800 per year registration. Add parking fees, servicing, approx $500 - $1000 a year, depending if there are repairs, damange to fix. Petrol, I estimate $30 a week. 52 weeks a year that is about $1500.

    That is, what, $5,800 a year, conservatively speaking. That is just one car, we have another. That car is cheaper, but we still at several thousand dollars sunk cost a year, not too far inside $10,000 per annum.

    Excluded from this is our tax dollars going to fund roads and car infrastructure.

    Are we getting our moneys worth? How long do I spend at work to earn that money? The car saves me time here and there, but I have to spend a LOT of time to earn the money to pay for it.

    Based on this, it doesn't seem that great after all.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 07:53:39
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Wed Sep 07 2022 09:26 pm


    Nightfox

    Our family car cost $37K. Have that for 20 years, max, that is nearly $2000

    Are those American Dollar, or Australian Dollar?

    I am paying around 400 eur per year for full-risk insurance for my car. It is not particularly old. Also no parking fees since I just station it in front of a corn field next to my house XD

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 07:42:00
    esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

    You are somehow equating *YOUR* experience/knowledge, which seems to be solely based on huge metropolitan areas (the Bay Area?). I can assure
    you that young people in my world do/did not grow up in a world where
    they get a ride with an app on their phone.

    I'm equating data, because in the world where I work, data is
    what drives things, not anecdotes from me or you or anyone else.
    Young people in your world will probably still buy cars, young
    people in urban environments are trending in the opposite
    direction, and there are more young people in urban environments
    than anywhere else.

    LOL at 'anecdotes'. It's actually called 'reality'. I don't doubt that
    young people who live in downtown SF, or downtown LA, or downtown
    Chicago, or downtown NYC... don't need or buy cars. Yes. But I think
    you must seperate the SUBURBAN areas from the ultra-downtown areas. To
    put it in your Bay Area terms - how about those that live in Alameda, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek.... do they need a car? How can they get to
    work or go shopping, without a car? That's right, they can't. Not realistically, anyway. Please don't mention the bus system...

    Now expand that thinking a little, and place yourself on a long straight
    road running as far as the eye can see alongside a cornfield in Iowa, or
    the brown farmland in Idaho, or a white winter in Nowhere, North Dakota.
    Do you think you might need a car there?

    I say again: NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN A FREAKIN URBAN CRAP-HOLE!!!

    Why are you being so combative, anyway? Nobody attacked you or
    where you live. Don't be such a snowflake ;)

    Not being combative, just trying to get you to open your eyes wide
    enough to see past the concrete and glass skyscrapers. There's more to
    the world than that.


    ... The future's uncertain, the end is always near.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 07:45:00
    Nightfox wrote to Moondog <=-

    The nearest store to me is a Dollar General, and it is 7 miles away. Walking would take forever.

    He was talking about taking public transportation. Does your
    town not have any public transportation?

    Nearly any small town in America, let's say those under 10,000
    population, does not have any public transportation.



    ... The world is full of surprises, very few of which are pleasant.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:08:31
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Sep 06 2022 06:49 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:12 pm

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could
    all d

    The nearest store to me is a Dollar General, and it is 7 miles away. Walking would take forever.

    He was talking about taking public transportation. Does your town not have any public transportation?


    we were talking about walking instead too
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:12:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Irish_Monk on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:11 pm

    no 45+ minute gaps between meetings for me to drive to work. Someone gave me grief about it today. It's frustrating. Granted he had his first meeting at 7am and he lives an hour from the office, but he also is young and doesn't have a family and he thinks that type of pace/commitment is acceptable.

    I'll continue to act in defiance out of what I believe to be correct and am happy to defend my position if push comes to shove.

    you should let your leadership know how you feel. some places go nuts with the meetings. I worked at a place that had me come in for useless circlejerk meetings on my days off.... when i should have been sleeping because i worked nights. they said 'atleast you're getting paid'. So i was basically there while middle managment guys were showing a lot of stuff that didn't apply to me, or stuff that really could have been an email.

    and with today's job market if you don't like what your company does you can always just go to another one. get it while it lasts.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:14:04
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:12 pm

    well in this person's case her output was next to zero and she was complaining about not having time to do her duties. in actuality he was playing farmville all day long but it was pot.

    Haha. Damn. Wonder if she think she can ask for a letter of recommendation. What a bozo.

    i dont mind a little bit of screwing off if you make up for it. Some people do not do that. also daydreamers are real bad. I think daydreamers are a form of silent quitters.

    At my job of 17 years we had a guy who was always off task and behind because of his daydreaming. i would knock on his office window when i walked past it because i knew i was waking him up in some fashion.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:17:50
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:14 pm


    People graduating from college now are people that aren't as interested in car ownership, to put it in perspective. People that came of age during an

    they will be when they need to drive someplace. and young people are normally stupid. they catch on eventually.

    Taxis can be expensive, sure, as can Ubers, but a car is typically the second biggest investment a person will make, and it's one that will be a money pit every single time. *shrug*


    before the world went to shit you could get a used car with 10k miles for under 10k in my area. and you could get it financed with no money down. that is cheap.

    In 2011 I got my ford explorer with like 80k miles on it for 9k. it was immaculate.

    i have not had to fix anything of importance. 2 years ago the thermostat was stuck open and i had to have it replaced. that was cheap. i'm living where there's all kinds of temps and weather conditions and lots of road salt.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:19:37
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:17 pm


    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the fact that it's typically the second biggest purchase a person will make (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate, the car will depreciate. The car is useful for transportation but there are alternatives, which is I think the thing I'm trying to convey that the market is trending toward supporting.

    i'm in a big urban area and to make good money i need to have a car. I'm not an office suit. I work in manufacturing. Having a car is absolutely important for my financial well being. a financial advisor could not argue against that.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:21:36
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:28 pm

    You cannot manage what you cannot measure. some managers take this too seriously, and expect employees to account for every second they do with factory workers. Funny thing is some line workers could actually benefit from itemizing every task. Boxing and unboxing parts draws away from producti vity. Equipment maintenence and cleaning also draws away time. Stupid meetin gs that are not porduction oriented takes away time. Itemization will

    i worked at places that tried to track every single thing but it just made everything 2x more work for everyone. plus they couldn't keep people because they were seen as so strict. I'd rather work at a place that didn't track me and looked at the bottom line.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:25:35
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Wed Sep 07 2022 09:26 pm

    Are we getting our moneys worth? How long do I spend at work to earn that money? The car saves me time here and there, but I have to spend a LOT of time to earn the money to pay for it.

    Based on this, it doesn't seem that great after all.

    okay, take your 2 cars to a scrap yard and get them crushed.
    then you are free. tell us how you are doing in one month.

    I bet it won't be so great.

    you didnt HAVE to car at that price. you could have got a used one for half the cost.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 08:57:26
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Wed Sep 07 2022 08:33 pm

    Rural areas are of course different, but Australia is quite urbanised. In fact, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere which wasn't a walk from the shops, or at least a short walk from what used to be a corner store.

    I live in an urban area as well, but I think it is fairly rare that I've seen anyone live close enough to a store where they could get all they need and walk there & back. We do have 'convenience stores' here, which may be in walking distance, but those typically are fairly small and mainly offer snacks & drinks.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 09:08:21
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:17 pm

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the fact that it's typically the second biggest purchase a person will make (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate, the car will depreciate. The car is useful for transportation but there are alternatives, which is I think the thing I'm trying to convey that the market is trending toward supporting.

    I've heard people say buying a brand-new car might not be worth it because cars drop in value as soon as you drive it off the lot, but I've never heard people talk about cars being the "stupidest thing most people do with their money". Most people need a method of transportation to get where they need to go on a daily basis, and I always thought a car made a lot of sense. I used to take public transit (mainly busses) before I drove, and although I appreciated that public transit is available, it can also be inconvenient and doesn't serve every purpose well (such as transporting groceries, going on road trips, etc.).

    There are costs involved with owning a car, but my car is something I use almost every day, so I feel like I'm getting a lot of value from owning a car.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 09:10:23
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 04:00 am

    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone. We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on private transport.

    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    Nightfox

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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:25:00
    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone. We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on private transport.

    Market share of ridesharing services like Uber and Lyft have exceeded taxis...it's not even close. And ridesharing /has/ made a dent on private transport.

    Everybody here is talking about transport-as-a-service killing private transport, but here is this:

    I appreciate everything that you share, but respectfully these are anecdotes and the world works in data :)

    The government is also on a crusade against non-taxi transport as a service, so I really don't see it gaining much traction out of big, big, big cities (which should be avoided like the plague anyway).

    The government has been on a crusade against rideshare drivers being contractors (vs being employees). The government lost, in this case. However autonomous rideshare services won't have anything to do with these drivers so the point is moot.

    Anyway, I'm not here to argue the virtues of living in one place vs another, I don't know why people keep injecting their opinion here. It's a very bizarre topic for people to be so triggered by.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:26:00
    Something that saves you money is not a money pit if it saves you from throwing even more money at different money pits.

    Again in this thread you provide several anecdotes which are interesting but unsupported by overall trends which is demonstrated by data.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:30:00
    Finantial advisors here usually tell you to own your main means of production instead of renting them. A fleet of trucks you own may devaluate. A fleet of trucks you rent is worth nothing at all after the money is gone.

    Sure, but we're talking about everyday people and not someone dealing with a fleet of trucks?

    Besides, I doubt a car is the second biggest investment people makes
    since mid-to-high level education is more expensive, setting a corner business is more expensive, and healthcare that actually works is also more expensive (in the long run). I certainly spend more keeping my business up, in housing and in taxes than I spend in the car (and I am talking orders of magnitude here).

    Regarding education, fair point. But I was speaking in terms of an investment that can either appreciate or depreciate, naturally there are ways to adapt education into this type of logical construct but I think you get the point of what I'm saying?

    Again I'm talking about data here, "health care that actually works" and "keeping my business up" are anecdotes which are not representative of overall trends.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:55:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 05:16 pm

    If I mainly worked from home, I think I'd feel stir-crazy after a while Sometimes I just like getting out in order to do something (such as work). However, lately I do feel like I wouldn't mind working from hom more often. I could do that with my job, but my employer prefers peopl to be in the office when possible.

    To each his own, and I agree that full time WFH is not doable for a lot of p
    businesses evolve to give employees more of a choice.

    How are cars a nuisance to young people?

    You have to buy them, they cost a lot and are typically a horrible financial ne.

    Owning my own car was my first big responsibility on my own, and was the most liberating. I did not have to rely on a relative or friend to go somewhere, and could go places i wanted to go. If I want to go to a comics shop or a hobby shop, I didn't have to hear some BS from a friend who gets bored at places like that.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 11:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Sep 06 2022 06:49 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Sep 06 2022 07:12 pm

    I often do that, walk home with bags of groceries. I suppose we could
    all d

    The nearest store to me is a Dollar General, and it is 7 miles away. Walking would take forever.

    He was talking about taking public transportation. Does your town not have

    Nightfox

    My town doesn't have it's own service but it shares Dial a ride with two
    other towns. They have routes in between towns, and will pick up people
    along their routes. My home is not along their route, but it may be possible to get a driver to come out for extra fees. This will be based on the
    driver's schedule, and that may vary from day to day based on customer load
    and other off-route travel. Time getting home is also at the mercy of deviation from existing route, and how many "deviants" are aboard and where they live. The window of operation is like 7am-3:30pm, so it's a service more
    or less for people who don't work or have part time jobs that fall within
    the operating time.

    When I was in school, the high school was 30 miles away. At one time the original school district merged with two other small districts and shared one middle and high school. I was on a bus route that took 45 minutes or more sitting on a bus. Every day an hour and a half was taken from me because I lived on the wrong side of the road from the school district that was 7 miles away. I'm not a fan of driving all over the countryside in buses.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 11:37:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Irish_Monk on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:11 pm

    One of the very few positives of my job is I have a company vehicle. Yes, it has a GPS and some other device that tracks speeds and probably everything else. But the good thing is, I work what we call 2nd shift, 1030am-7pm. My work truck leaves my driveway at 1030am and usually is pulling in my driveway at 7:01pm. So like you said, its more family tim etc... and less miles on my personal truck....

    Ah, nice. I live 45 mins (give or take) from my office and I work at a tech
    and my final meeting was 4:30pm, and there were no 45+ minute gaps between o is young and doesn't have a family and he thinks that type of pace/commitm

    I'll continue to act in defiance out of what I believe to be correct and am

    Earlier this year I heard a quote from some big company exec saying working from home is for those who want a job, but people who travel to the
    office are the ones who seek careers. It takes some effort to climb in a car and travel to work to sit in a cube and have people stare at you, but I don't see that as being ground breaking with regards to being more upwardly mobile.

    On NPR I heard an itnerview with a sci-fi writer who wrote a story about a young man from a poor little town in Mexico reading about job opportunities
    in Mexico city. He shows up at the office, takes some comprehensive and technicl tests, then is told to show up at another office the next day. He
    is sat in a crane simulator that is a completely submersive environment. he can see and hear like he is on the real jobsite. He passes the training and told he would be working on a building in the United Arab Emirates. He tells them he has no passport, but they tell his that is ok. Just show up at the office on time. He shows up, and they put him in the simulator room he
    trained in. This time it is for real. When dealing with other employees, he hears their voices in a synthesized spanish voice. he can also text to each other crane or loader. he wants to speak with another crane operator off the system, and gives him his phone number. It turns out the other operator is working out of Pakistan and the loader operator is from Australia. Nobody running equipment is from the place they are working.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 11:44:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 04:28 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:17 pm

    I don't think you can even really talk about a car as an investment. you're buying a car to try to invest, then that's just a bad idea. car is meant to be used - The usefulness is in transportation, and i you can make use of it, then I think you'll get its money's worth.

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single ake (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreci orting.

    You may think you get your money's worth, but more and more people are di
    to day work.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

    Finantial advisors here usually tell you to own your main means of productio instead of renting them. A fleet of trucks you own may devaluate. A fleet of trucks you rent is worth nothing at all after the money is gone.

    Transport renting is something firms here do when their accountant tells the they need to get rid of money with expenses that can be justified.

    Besides, I doubt a car is the second biggest investment people makes since mid-to-high level education is more expensive, setting a corner business is more expensive, and healthcare that actually works is also more expensive (i the long run). I certainly spend more keeping my business up, in housing and taxes than I spend in the car (and I am talking orders of magnitude here).

    /S
    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    Most of the places I worked at leased their IT assets and leased vehicles so
    we could move equipment from site to site. We were paying more to lease the machines than if we owned them, but the financial folks were looking at
    capital gains if we owned the equipment. Of course the firm we leased out assets from was a subsidiary of the company, but it was a legal form of workar ound.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:36:00
    Not being combative, just trying to get you to open your eyes wide
    enough to see past the concrete and glass skyscrapers. There's more to the world than that.

    Fair enough, but I'll say again that the overall data and trends are what drives the markets to change, and the data overwhelmingly points to a decline for desire of car ownership :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:38:00
    you should let your leadership know how you feel. some places go nuts with the meetings. I worked at a place that had me come in for useless circlejerk meetings on my days off.... when i should have been sleeping because i worked nights. they said 'atleast you're getting paid'. So i was basically there while middle managment guys were showing a lot of stuff that didn't apply to me, or stuff that really could have been an email.

    Yeah, I have been doing so and continue to. It's frustrating but it's not forever. Once this company IPOs I'll begin looking at other options in earnest.

    and with today's job market if you don't like what your company does you can always just go to another one. get it while it lasts.

    Totally. I'm sticking around here for now in spite of any frustrations really because I want a big payout, so I'm holding out hope that it happens sooner rather than later hehe. I think after this I'm going to work for myself, I'm growing sick of working for other people.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:41:00
    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    Use in these types of services are on a significant rise

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Gamgee on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:48:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 07:42 am

    Now expand that thinking a little, and place yourself on a long straight road running as far as the eye can see alongside a cornfield in Iowa, or
    the brown farmland in Idaho, or a white winter in Nowhere, North Dakota.

    So much stuff to see, so little time. If they had an advertisement like that in some travel agency, I would fall for it :-)

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:53:11
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 08:19 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Sep 06 2022 09:17 pm


    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the fact that it's typically the seco biggest purchase a person will make (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate, the car will depreciate. The ca is useful for transportation but there are alternatives, which is I think the thing I'm trying to convey that the market is trending toward supporting.

    i'm in a big urban area and to make good money i need to have a car. I'm no ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

    A finantial advisor I used to know would advise you not to won the car, but to build a phantom company that owned the car, so you could get tax deductions for the car \o/

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 14:07:14
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 10:25 am

    The government has been on a crusade against rideshare drivers being contrac

    Anyway, I'm not here to argue the virtues of living in one place vs another,


    The argument against living in a Big City pops up because most issues raised around regarding urbanism apply only to Big Cities.

    People gets very angry with this subject because decisions regarding transport management are regularly taken by Big City folk with disregard to the needs of anybody living in a smaller city than Barcelona. It is not even a Big City vs Rural Villages struggle. They'd wreck mid-sized Cities if left unchecked.

    OFC the plural of anecdote is not data, but when my observation is that everybody with a job (but very few exceptions) owns a car for professional purposes (or borrows one) I am skeptical to claims that the opposite is true at an Universal scale.

    /S


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    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 14:19:08
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 10:26 am

    Something that saves you money is not a money pit if it saves you from throwing even more money at different money pits.

    Again in this thread you provide several anecdotes which are interesting but


    No anecdote in the argument. It is formal reasoning. Big difference.

    The proof is in the pudding. When COVID-19 hit, it was businesses which heavily relied in rented assets which got wiped. If you owned the emplacement where your bar was located, you closed up and looked for something else to do, expecting to reopen the bar once the crisis was over. If you didn't own the emplacement, you closed the bar for good because you didn't have an emplacement to go back to, yet you could not afford to keep paying the rent.

    It applies to so many assets. Lots of IT firms have gone down the drain because they ussed rented cloud assets which they lost to ToS conflicts, or whose conditions were changed by the provider, and they didn't have the resources to bounce back.

    People paying rent were pouring resources in stuff that disappeared. People purchasing stuff poured resources in things that stayed.

    This is the reason why the place I work for has everything important in premises and only has stuff we don't mind losing in the cloud :-)



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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 14:40:33
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 10:30 am

    Finantial advisors here usually tell you to own your main means of production instead of renting them. A fleet of trucks you own may devaluate. A fleet of trucks you rent is worth nothing at all after the money is gone.

    Sure, but we're talking about everyday people and not someone dealing with a

    Besides, I doubt a car is the second biggest investment people makes since mid-to-high level education is more expensive, setting a corner business is more expensive, and healthcare that actually works is also more expensive (in the long run). I certainly spend more keeping my business up, in housing and in taxes than I spend in the car (and I am talking orders of magnitude here).

    Regarding education, fair point. But I was speaking in terms of an investmen

    Again I'm talking about data here, "health care that actually works" and "ke

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

    The argument that a fleet of trucks you own won't disappear the same way as one you rent is adjustable to different scopes. A bicycle you own will still be useful ages after you have paid for it. A bicycle you don't own will vanish in a puff smoke, taking all your money with it, once you stop paying the rent.

    Education is an investment and it also has a big potential to devaluate if you are unlucky. If some folk from the government decides your degree is no longer good enough for the tasks you are performing, your degree devaluates. That stuff happens. If the education is actually good then it might still be useful, but the papers themselves are only as valuable as the Guild Mafias and politicians allow them to be.

    Healthcare that works is far from being an anecdote and I know for a fact patients at $workplace are paying much more for their insurance policies than my friends or I (and most people I know) pay for a car. Hint: social security taxes are also an insurance policy (by the look of trends since last year, it looks like it is a scammy one, but that is a different subject).


    People building upo their own business is far from being anecdotic. There are more family businesses on street level than there are big franchises and surfaces, by orders of magnitude. Plus, many instances of a franchise are
    paid by the entepreneour opening the instance anyway.

    But let's keep the argument further and assume that purchasing assets that devaluate is stupid. In that case, I will let you know that bananas devaluate quite quickl¤y. Therefore, according to your logic, purchasing a banana and extracting value out of it before it becomes useless is stupid and everybody should be purchasing foods that gain in value (such as wine).

    Good luck feeding of wine only. DOing that, however, would be stupid: it is wiser to let the wine go up in price instead of drinking it. You'll starve to death but the investment will be very smart.

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    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 14:55:50
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 11:44 am

    Most of the places I worked at leased their IT assets and leased vehicles so we could move equipment from site to site. We were paying more to lease the machines than if we owned them, but the financial folks were looking at capital gains if we owned the equipment. Of course the firm we leased out assets from was a subsidiary of the company, but it was a legal form of work ound.


    TBH it is quite fine to lease stuff you can afford to lose. If an IT company does not rely heavily on something it might make sense to rent instead. Most of the times I see it done it is for tax engineering, which is quite an artificial reason IMO.

    There is a reason why some healthcare services I know have leased cars and leased IT, but they don't lease the surgery rooms or the radiodiagnostics equipment.

    This reminds me of a firm which was delivering spam in order to promote their products. I contacted their email provider (which was outsourced) and they lost ALL their email infrastructure when the email provider kicked them out. It turns out that delivering advertisements was so importantr for this company that they kept phoning into my office for a whole week asking me to tell the email provider it had been a misunderstanding - and they eventually had to go with a different provider, whose prices were much worse by the look of their websites.


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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Moondog on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:35:46
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 05:23 pm

    Everything in life is somewhere else, and you need a car to get there.

    Not necessarily. Many people in dense urban environments (big cities) live their lives very fully without needing to own their own car.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #6:
    Karl: he should've had a chance to grow up. He would had fun some time.
    Norco, CA WX: 101.8øF, 31.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:39:43
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Sun Sep 04 2022 08:22 am

    my uncle has a country place
    that no one knows about
    he says it used to be a farm
    before the motor law
    on sundays i elude the eyes
    and hop the turbine freight
    to fall outside the wire
    where my white haired uncle waits...

    i strip away the old debris
    that hides a shining car
    a brilliant red barchetta
    from a better, vanished time
    fire up the willing engine
    responding with a roar
    tires spitting gravel
    i commit my weekly crime...

    Nice reference. One correction: "To *far* outside the Wire".
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #13:
    Cast in this unlikely role, ill-equipped to act, with insufficient tact
    Norco, CA WX: 101.8øF, 31.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 16:16:40
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to Moondog on Wed Sep 07 2022 01:35 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 05:23 pm

    Everything in life is somewhere else, and you need a car to get there.

    Not necessarily. Many people in dense urban environments (big cities) live their lives very fully without needing to own their own car.

    i wouldn't say it's many people.
    and perhaps they just adapted to being so limited.
    there's many people that WORK in DC and ny and commute there via cars.

    I just went to the grocery store for a few things. If i used the bus or a taxi instead, this shopping trip would be a huge inconvenience.
    ---
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  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to MRO on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:24:00
    i worked at places that tried to track every single thing but it just
    made everything 2x more work for everyone. plus they couldn't keep
    people because they were seen as so strict. I'd rather work at a place that didn't track me and looked at the bottom line.

    yup, we have people leaving for less money just because they are tired of the tracking, and everything else. Be honost, I was more productive back in the day before they came out with all this stuff, so now I just do what everyone else does, just enough!! Which sorta sucks , because I use to really enjoy my job..

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Confucius say: "Its stuffy inside fortune cookie"
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:28:16
    On 9/6/22 14:17, esc wrote:

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is
    the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It
    is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the
    fact that it's typically the second biggest purchase a person
    will make (after purchasing a house).

    A car should not be thought of as an investment, at least not regarding
    how people think about investments. It's better to think of it as a
    tool that will wear, break and (usually) depreciate in value over time
    until it's only worth scrap or salvage.

    It's about the opportunity that a car gives you, and the entertainment
    value, assuming you enjoy driving. It allows you to have flexibility in
    terms of when/where/how you do things that are outside your immediate
    area. It also allows you to calculate the costs in a more consistent
    way than service/delivery fees on demand. The absolute costs are not
    always better than the alternatives.

    My car is now paid off, my fiance's and daughter's vehicles aren't. At
    this point, I could probably do without, sharing my fiance's and my
    daughter definitely couldn't do without given the area's relative lack
    of good public transport and how spread out the Phoenix area is.

    That said, I like my car and I enjoy driving. I also like road/weekend
    trips and find value in that. Since it's "paid for" and in good
    operating condition, there's marginal extra cost for the insurance over
    the other two cars, and registration is less than half what a single
    month's payment was.

    I do think we need better/alternative vehicle designs at this point...
    given the number of autonomous vehicles that will be on the road for packages/delivery and for the likes of Uber/Lift/Waymo, etc. The
    classic driver/passenger design is likely not going to be needed. For packages, I think something in the form factor used in Japan, where no
    driver compartment is needed will become the norm for most of what's on
    the road during the day, with a smaller drone inside for doorstep drops.
    I can see this working with a mobile hive carrier... where a larger
    vehicle has larger units that are swapped to/from the smaller wheeled
    drones nearer last mile delivery.

    For passenger travel, I'm thinking more cargo-van size where the base
    can be as low and flat as reasonable, and seating can be effective and comfortable. Also better for shopping or airport trips with more space.

    Larger cargo/semi trucks aren't going anywhere... I also don't think
    diesel fuel is going anywhere either, though may get displaced by
    different sources (seed/peanut oil, etc).

    In general, it's probably better to see a few more varieties of options.
    I think efforts to force all-electric are really ignorant in the near
    term and only serve to make the grid suffer in general. EU is learning
    the lessons the hard way of moving away from nuclear power without
    sufficient domestic options. California in particular is going to suffer
    badly in the next decade without a significant shift in mindset.

    All of that said, I plan to continue driving until I'm either no longer physically able, or I'm dead.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:30:03
    On 9/7/22 09:10, Nightfox wrote:
    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone.
    We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on
    private transport.

    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't
    everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    I think it's mostly about population density... it makes more sense in
    areas with greater density and lower ground travel necessary. In more sprawling cities like CA, TX, AZ it's much harder to persist on ride
    services and public transit.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Moondog on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:44:48
    On 9/7/22 08:44, Moondog wrote:

    Most of the places I worked at leased their IT assets and leased
    vehicles so we could move equipment from site to site. We were paying
    more to lease the machines than if we owned them, but the financial
    folks were looking at capital gains if we owned the equipment. Of
    course the firm we leased out assets from was a subsidiary of the
    company, but it was a legal form of workaround.

    There's lots of reasons to do things like this... by keeping assets off
    the books in a given company. There's also sometimes some real crappy
    moves going on behind the scenes (see K-Mart/Sears) regarding the second company that owns the equipment/debt etc. The leasing company takes on
    debt to buy the equipment, and this protects that other company from
    having that risk on the books... worst case scenario, the leasing
    company folds, and the creditors are left holding the bag.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:52:02
    On 9/7/22 03:36, esc wrote:

    Fair enough, but I'll say again that the overall data and trends are
    what drives the markets to change, and the data overwhelmingly points
    to a decline for desire of car ownership :)

    Of course.. you can get most of what you need delivered to you the same
    or next day at marginal additional cost (Amazon). I think the likes of Grubhub/Uber-Eats and similar are in a tough spot short of autonomous
    vehicles and drones for doorstep drop-off by comparison.

    That said, there's a cost to society for these things and people not
    leaving their homes. The increase in "social anxiety" is palpable to
    say the least, and by all metrics the only way around it is to actually
    get out and do things, not drugs, not therapy.

    I think if I were the likes of Walmart/Amazon, I'd actually be investing
    in larger/denser construction projects, using pod/floor systems like
    high rises in the middle east. Building with a few hundred apartments,
    Whole Foods and Starbucks in the building including amazon returns/drop.
    Get that population density up, own/control the market and increase dependency. While reducing last mile delivery costs. For western US
    cities, sprawling parking lot.. for other locations, multi-floor
    garage... developed with 1.8 spaces per unit, each rented separately.

    Not that it's what I want personally, just where my mind would be if I
    had the funds to make such a thing happen.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:56:08
    On 9/7/22 03:38, esc wrote:

    Yeah, I have been doing so and continue to. It's frustrating but it's
    not forever. Once this company IPOs I'll begin looking at other
    options in earnest.
    ...
    Totally. I'm sticking around here for now in spite of any frustrations really because I want a big payout, so I'm holding out hope that it
    happens sooner rather than later hehe. I think after this I'm going to
    work for myself, I'm growing sick of working for other people.

    I'm kind of in a similar boat... took a job last year that includes a
    healthy amount of RSUs that are granted over the next few years... until
    IPO, really doesn't mean anything... if there's a 10x growth by the time
    I cash out, it could be retirement money and I could work on stuff I
    want to do. I'd probably still do work for/with other people, just less concerned about the money and more about the job/satisfaction.

    Right now, I'm very well paid for far less flexibility and autonomy than
    I'm used to and it's beyond frustrating and disheartening.

    I don't ever plan to stop working, even if I had the money to do so...
    I'd be more inclined to focus on what I want to do and less on what
    others want.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 13:58:33
    On 9/7/22 11:53, Arelor wrote:

    A finantial advisor I used to know would advise you not to won the car, but to
    build a phantom company that owned the car, so you could get tax deductions for
    the car \o/

    Similar for owning a home... have an LLC for the house, with shares of
    that company in a trust. Isolates risk, offsets costs and maximize deductions. For those renting houses, having each house in an LLC to
    limit liability as well... nobody can sue you directly.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 19:57:00
    esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Not being combative, just trying to get you to open your eyes wide
    enough to see past the concrete and glass skyscrapers. There's more to the world than that.

    Fair enough, but I'll say again that the overall data and trends
    are what drives the markets to change, and the data
    overwhelmingly points to a decline for desire of car ownership :)

    Also fair enough, and I don't doubt that car sales will decrease in
    coming times. That will be due to the big-city population's decline in desire, but will not affect "country" folk in any significant way,
    because there isn't any realistic alternative for them.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:01:00
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 07:42 am

    Now expand that thinking a little, and place yourself on a long straight road running as far as the eye can see alongside a cornfield in Iowa, or
    the brown farmland in Idaho, or a white winter in Nowhere, North Dakota.

    So much stuff to see, so little time. If they had an
    advertisement like that in some travel agency, I would fall for
    it :-)

    Hahaha! I have seen all of those things, and more! But I do agree with
    you, there is still plenty not seen (yet). I have not yet been to
    Spain, although my daughter lived there (Sevilla and Rota) for 2-3 years
    and loved it. I'll get there one day.



    ... A woman drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:09:00
    Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 04:00 am

    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone. We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on private transport.

    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't
    everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    I know it wasn't you who said a car is a bad investment... But that's
    all wrong anyway. A car is not an investment at all. It's a TOOL that
    is used to make life easier, like any other tool. Like a pair of
    pliers, or a smartphone, or a piece of software. It's not *MEANT* to
    increase in value. When it wears out, you buy a new one. Just like you
    would with a coffee maker, or a toaster.

    Oh, and the reason people (other than inner city folks) aren't using
    those services is that they are ridiculously expensive over time.
    You're throwing money down the toilet with that, because when your ride
    is completed, you have......... nothing to show for it. No car, no
    tool, no nothing. Well, except the need to hire another one to get home later...


    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:14:00
    esc wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    Use in these types of services are on a significant rise

    In big city/inner city locations.... just to clarify. Not so in
    suburbia and country environments.

    Before you say "that's just an anecdote"... it isn't. It's DATA that I
    see with my own eyes, and get from my own conversations and interactions
    with people. It's not made up, and it's not hearsay. It's fact.



    ... Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 19:44:00
    So much stuff to see, so little time. If they had an advertisement like that in some travel agency, I would fall for it :-)

    Ha yeah, my wife and I are about to take an RV trip. We love getting out and disconnecting. The US is such a beautiful country to explore.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 19:45:00
    A finantial advisor I used to know would advise you not to won the car, but to build a phantom company that owned the car, so you could get tax deductions for the car \o/

    I need this guy's help on taxes this year, please hehe

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 19:52:00
    The proof is in the pudding. When COVID-19 hit, it was businesses which heavily relied in rented assets which got wiped. If you owned the emplacement where your bar was located, you closed up and looked for something else to do, expecting to reopen the bar once the crisis was over. If you didn't own the emplacement, you closed the bar for good because you didn't have an emplacement to go back to, yet you could not afford to keep paying the rent.

    I believe the research demonstrated that brick and mortar stores (not bars or restaurants) were already trending toward obsolescence due to things like Amazon, and COVID merely sped this up. But yeah, as far as restaurants and bars, COVID really must have been shitty. I can't imagine.

    It applies to so many assets. Lots of IT firms have gone down the drain because they ussed rented cloud assets which they lost to ToS conflicts, or whose conditions were changed by the provider, and they didn't have
    the resources to bounce back.

    Interesting, I hadn't heard of this. Naturally the perspective I get is from people that actually work at places like AWS so I only ever heard the rosy side of the story. That said, I've had nothing but positive experiences with Digital Ocean, granted they're a bit pricier than some other options. Then again, I store things myself that are important, and really only put things in cloud instances that I intend to open up to the broader internet (i.e., my BBS).

    People paying rent were pouring resources in stuff that disappeared. People purchasing stuff poured resources in things that stayed.

    In the US we have a big problem with foreign investors "safely" parking their money in American real estate. I don't have any issues with people diversifying their assets or helping invest in communities, but the problem is that it ends up forcing American people to rent since they become priced out of buying (how can someone try to get a mortgage and compete for someone offering cash 20% over asking price, for example). In a perfect world, everyone would buy, but I don't think that's always possible.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Tracker1 on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 19:58:00
    A car should not be thought of as an investment, at least not regarding how people think about investments. It's better to think of it as a
    tool that will wear, break and (usually) depreciate in value over time until it's only worth scrap or salvage.

    This is basically why I lease cars. The reason I put it in terms of being an investment is because people that advocate for car ownership do so because of an idea of owning something after paying for it, and not treating it like a consumable.

    It's about the opportunity that a car gives you, and the entertainment value, assuming you enjoy driving. It allows you to have flexibility in terms of when/where/how you do things that are outside your immediate area. It also allows you to calculate the costs in a more consistent
    way than service/delivery fees on demand. The absolute costs are not always better than the alternatives.

    I'd differ with you a bit on your final point. The market is trending to a place where much of industry predicts a rideshare subscription service...you pay x amount per month and you have on-demand service from its fleet of autonomous vehicles. /That/ is the predictable model IMO. We lease new cars to avoid any maintenance surprises and accept a bit of additional expense to defer any extra hassle.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Tracker1 on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:04:00
    I'm kind of in a similar boat... took a job last year that includes a healthy amount of RSUs that are granted over the next few years... until IPO, really doesn't mean anything... if there's a 10x growth by the time I cash out, it could be retirement money and I could work on stuff I
    want to do. I'd probably still do work for/with other people, just less concerned about the money and more about the job/satisfaction.

    Yep, this exactly. My last gig was a pre-IPO gig and there was a substantial payout which was pretty life changing. One more of these and I don't think I'll have to work for anyone else ever again. It's not early retirement money for me but definitely some "F*** You" money if I'm unhappy.

    Something that was frustrating for me at my last company was the realization that no matter how hard I worked, no matter how many outcomes I helped achieve, I was really doing all of that simply to make someone else rich. I'm doing that again now, and granted while my payout is significant, it's not something I'm willing to do again.

    Right now, I'm very well paid for far less flexibility and autonomy than I'm used to and it's beyond frustrating and disheartening.

    Yes, same, this, 10000%. You're tugging on my heartstrings here.

    I don't ever plan to stop working, even if I had the money to do so... I'd be more inclined to focus on what I want to do and less on what others want.

    My wife and I would like to retire somewhat early. My dad retired at 66 and now he's too old to really do the things he had wanted to do throughout his life, and prior to this, he was too busy working to do the things he wanted to do. This isn't the retirement I want. That's not to say I'll stop working necessarily but the definition of "work" may look a bit different (i.e., volunteering at an animal shelter or something).

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:08:00
    Also fair enough, and I don't doubt that car sales will decrease in coming times. That will be due to the big-city population's decline in desire, but will not affect "country" folk in any significant way, because there isn't any realistic alternative for them.

    Yeah, true. We have business in Germany and it's interesting how different parts of Europe are to the US in this regard. We actually have a rather distributed population. Working on autonomy projects in places like Germany is different due to how their urban centers are structured, and how populations are distributed.

    I am sad to say that autonomy is going to render a lot of country work redundant...we are headed to a place where work sites (construction, mining, large scale farming) will be comprised mainly of machines that operate without human interaction, and a small proportion of people will reap the majority of any financial upside. All the companies building machines to do this type of work (think of all the chief players in farming equipment) are investing heavily in autonomy. They treat it like a foregone conclusion.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:09:00
    Hahaha! I have seen all of those things, and more! But I do agree with you, there is still plenty not seen (yet). I have not yet been to
    Spain, although my daughter lived there (Sevilla and Rota) for 2-3 years and loved it. I'll get there one day.

    Dude! I got arrested in Rota! Pro-tip - don't take Ambien on a flight back to the US from the Middle East if it has to stop and refuel somewhere. Murphy's Law dictates that the aircraft will absolutely break down and you'll be wandering around during siesta like a crazy person. Hehe.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Wednesday, September 07, 2022 20:10:00
    Before you say "that's just an anecdote"... it isn't. It's DATA that I see with my own eyes, and get from my own conversations and interactions with people. It's not made up, and it's not hearsay. It's fact.

    Respectfully, that's basically the definition of anecdotal information ;)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From fusion@VERT/CFBBS to MRO on Thursday, September 08, 2022 06:39:00
    On 07 Sep 2022, MRO said the following...

    i wouldn't say it's many people.
    and perhaps they just adapted to being so limited.
    there's many people that WORK in DC and ny and commute there via cars.

    people will pay 5x the rent to live in a crummy apartment in the city with
    high crime and then complain the car owners living in the suburbs are the stupid ones.

    fits the whole "you will own nothing and be happy about it" mindset.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Thursday, September 08, 2022 23:45:01
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Wed Sep 07 2022 07:53 am

    Our family car cost $37K. Have that for 20 years, max, that is nearly $2000

    Are those American Dollar, or Australian Dollar?

    I am paying around 400 eur per year for full-risk insurance for my car. It is not particularly old. Also no parking fees since I just station it in front of a corn field next to my house XD

    This is in Australian dollars. Registration is costly here, most of it is a type of insurance, the TAC. This is money which is paid out to accident victims. Someone has to pay to support all the people crippled in accidents, and those who have lost breadwinners.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Thursday, September 08, 2022 23:49:38
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Wed Sep 07 2022 08:25 am

    Are we getting our moneys worth? How long do I spend at work to earn that money? The car saves me time here and there, but I have to spend a LOT of time to earn the money to pay for it.

    Based on this, it doesn't seem that great after all.

    okay, take your 2 cars to a scrap yard and get them crushed.
    then you are free. tell us how you are doing in one month.

    I bet it won't be so great.

    you didnt HAVE to car at that price. you could have got a used one for half the cost.

    Used cars aren't that much cheaper now. You also seem confused. I'm saying the problem is RELIANCE on cars. You're just repeating the very point I'm making back at me.

    We have to have two cars because 20th century industrialised urban design made this waste necessary. We need to think of better design, so it is feasible for us to go to one car and run it less.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Friday, September 09, 2022 00:01:24
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to MRO on Wed Sep 07 2022 01:53 pm

    Any financial advisor would tell you that purchasing a car is the single stupidest thing most people do with their money. It is an investment when you consider how much it costs, and the fact that it's typically the seco biggest purchase a person will make (after purchasing a house). The difference is, the house will appreciate, the car will depreciate. The ca is useful for transportation but there are alternatives, which is I think the thing I'm trying to convey that the market is trending toward supporting.

    i'm in a big urban area and to make good money i need to have a car. I'm no ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

    A finantial advisor I used to know would advise you not to won the car, but to build a phantom company that owned the car, so you could get tax deductions for the car \o/

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    I have always purchased (for myself anyway) cheap cars. I am on my second car, after 25 years of driving. It *IS* stupid financially to spend a dollar more on a car than what is necessary. Luxury cars have virtually no return. They offer the same function and unless it is a Lamborghini or something, are bad investments.

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buying a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see its value rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still lose heaps of value, but get little in return.

    Put it this way, if you are going to spend $60K on a car (and people do), you're better off putting $10-$15 on the car, and investing the rest in shares.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Thursday, September 08, 2022 09:22:42
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Tracker1 on Wed Sep 07 2022 07:58 pm

    This is basically why I lease cars. The reason I put it in terms of being an investment is because people that advocate for car ownership do so because of an idea of owning something after paying for it, and not treating it like a consumable.

    yeah but i paid off my 1 car long ago. Now i'm driving it with little or no problems. It has a lot more years in it. if there's an issue with car 2 i can drive car 1 until the issue is resolved. the insurance isn't costing me a lot.

    I benefit from having this paid off car.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Thursday, September 08, 2022 09:30:41
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Thu Sep 08 2022 11:49 pm

    Used cars aren't that much cheaper now.

    well the world went to shit in the last 2 years. i'm looking at the used car site i use and prices are a BIT higher for used cars, but not real bad.
    just wait it out

    You also seem confused. I'm saying
    the problem is RELIANCE on cars. You're just repeating the very point I'm making back at me.

    i'm not confused. you are being extremely abstract.
    we need cars. they are useful tools. it's not a problem.

    i'm a problem solver and I don't get attached to things. if my cars were a problem i would get rid of them.

    I don't want to walk to work and i don't want to carry my groceries from the store to my house.

    We have to have two cars because 20th century industrialised urban design made this waste necessary. We need to think of better design, so it is feasible for us to go to one car and run it less.

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Thursday, September 08, 2022 08:31:21
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Wed Sep 07 2022 08:09 pm

    I know it wasn't you who said a car is a bad investment... But that's
    all wrong anyway. A car is not an investment at all. It's a TOOL that
    is used to make life easier, like any other tool. Like a pair of
    pliers, or a smartphone, or a piece of software. It's not *MEANT* to increase in value. When it wears out, you buy a new one. Just like you would with a coffee maker, or a toaster.

    Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. People buy cars because they're a tool, and their usefulness is transportation (not as an investment).

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Thursday, September 08, 2022 09:13:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 02:40 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 10:30 am

    Finantial advisors here usually tell you to own your main means of production instead of renting them. A fleet of trucks you own may devaluate. A fleet of trucks you rent is worth nothing at all after money is gone.

    Sure, but we're talking about everyday people and not someone dealing wit

    Besides, I doubt a car is the second biggest investment people makes since mid-to-high level education is more expensive, setting a corne business is more expensive, and healthcare that actually works is al more expensive (in the long run). I certainly spend more keeping my business up, in housing and in taxes than I spend in the car (and I talking orders of magnitude here).

    Regarding education, fair point. But I was speaking in terms of an invest

    Again I'm talking about data here, "health care that actually works" and

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

    The argument that a fleet of trucks you own won't disappear the same way as you rent is adjustable to different scopes. A bicycle you own will still be useful ages after you have paid for it. A bicycle you don't own will vanish a puff smoke, taking all your money with it, once you stop paying the rent.

    Education is an investment and it also has a big potential to devaluate if y are unlucky. If some folk from the government decides your degree is no long good enough for the tasks you are performing, your degree devaluates. That stuff happens. If the education is actually good then it might still be usef but the papers themselves are only as valuable as the Guild Mafias and politicians allow them to be.

    Healthcare that works is far from being an anecdote and I know for a fact patients at $workplace are paying much more for their insurance policies tha my friends or I (and most people I know) pay for a car. Hint: social securit taxes are also an insurance policy (by the look of trends since last year, i looks like it is a scammy one, but that is a different subject).


    People building upo their own business is far from being anecdotic. There ar more family businesses on street level than there are big franchises and surfaces, by orders of magnitude. Plus, many instances of a franchise are paid by the entepreneour opening the instance anyway.

    But let's keep the argument further and assume that purchasing assets that devaluate is stupid. In that case, I will let you know that bananas devaluat quite quickl¤y. Therefore, according to your logic, purchasing a banana and extracting value out of it before it becomes useless is stupid and everybody should be purchasing foods that gain in value (such as wine).

    Good luck feeding of wine only. DOing that, however, would be stupid: it is wiser to let the wine go up in price instead of drinking it. You'll starve t death but the investment will be very smart.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    I see a car or other asset that devaluates over time as a comsumable. It's good to a certain point, than it begins costing as much as it's worth to susta in. That's not a problem because a business plan should factor in wear and tear and replacement of vehicles, computers, pens, pads of paper, servers,
    etc.

    Big companies lease their desktop and laptop devices for at least these reasons: leasing keeps them from being taxed as captial gains, and the lease cycle and life cycle usually sync up. If a machine becomes dedicated for a ce rtain purpose, the option to buy is there. Some lease vehicles for the same reason. It's a disposable or consumable resource, and if you take it in and service it regularly, it will run until the lease is up. At that time, you lease another new vehicle with no miles. When the time comes, return and get credit for old stuff and get new stuff.

    I considered leasing, but living in the country I would acquire more miles
    than accounted for in that lease period. and pay extra when the lease is
    done. I run vehicles as long term consumables. For a work car, all it has
    to do is get me to work and back reliably and cost effectively. I also hate
    to make payments, so at some time in my vehicle's life I only require insurance, registration and costs of consumables such as tire, oil, brakes, et c.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Thursday, September 08, 2022 09:30:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Sep 07 2022 02:55 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Sep 07 2022 11:44 am

    Most of the places I worked at leased their IT assets and leased vehicles we could move equipment from site to site. We were paying more to lease machines than if we owned them, but the financial folks were looking at capital gains if we owned the equipment. Of course the firm we leased ou assets from was a subsidiary of the company, but it was a legal form of w ound.


    TBH it is quite fine to lease stuff you can afford to lose. If an IT company does not rely heavily on something it might make sense to rent instead. Most the times I see it done it is for tax engineering, which is quite an artific reason IMO.

    There is a reason why some healthcare services I know have leased cars and leased IT, but they don't lease the surgery rooms or the radiodiagnostics equipment.

    This reminds me of a firm which was delivering spam in order to promote thei products. I contacted their email provider (which was outsourced) and they l ALL their email infrastructure when the email provider kicked them out. It turns out that delivering advertisements was so importantr for this company that they kept phoning into my office for a whole week asking me to tell the email provider it had been a misunderstanding - and they eventually had to g with a different provider, whose prices were much worse by the look of their websites.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    It makes sense to own long term resources. Surgical and med tech equipment
    has a longer life cycle than desktop computing resources. The same applies
    at the manufacturing level. In 2018 I was at a place with robotic arms assembling car bodies and it's software ran on Win98. The robotic arms were made in 1999-2000 when Win98 was the current operating system. It doesn't matter because the manufacturing lan is isolated from the business lan, and th e robots do the same thing they did 20 years ago when first purchased. In
    that application it is no longer viewed as a desktop OS with a short life cycle, and is viewed as equipment firmware or part of an entire system.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Digital Man on Thursday, September 08, 2022 10:12:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Digital Man to Moondog on Wed Sep 07 2022 01:35 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Sep 05 2022 05:23 pm

    Everything in life is somewhere else, and you need a car to get there.

    Not necessarily. Many people in dense urban environments (big cities) live t --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #6:
    Karl: he should've had a chance to grow up. He would had fun some time. Norco, CA WX: 101.8øF, 31.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    That happens as well, but in my case if I want to shop at a big box store, i have to drive 15-20 miles at least. If i wanted to shop at a mall or
    shopping center that doesn't look like it has been ransacked I have to drive 35 miles. Large tech store and large sporting good stores are further away. Cabelas is 60 miles away and there's nothing closer that compares to thier inventory. An IMAX movie is 64 miles away. Until recently the nearest
    Costco was 50 miles away (now it's 35 miles).

    Living in th emiddle of nowhere has it's adavantages and disadvantages,
    however variety of product and services are far away. Some stores or
    services can only be found in large cities or population centers, and if
    you're in an area where the larger cities nearby are considered small by
    larger city standards. The nearest big cities to me are South Bend, IN, and Elkhart, IN and they're limited to what they offer. Michigan City is
    somewhat limited in choices. Next big jump takes me 70 north to Kalamazoo or across the lake to Chicago. The folks I know who shop in Chicago area rent charter buses to go to the outlet malls to avoid traffic. there is some variety in Kzoo and Grand Rapids, however they're better for things you can't find on the internet or want to try on personally.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Tracker1 on Thursday, September 08, 2022 10:18:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Wed Sep 07 2022 01:30 pm

    On 9/7/22 09:10, Nightfox wrote:
    Transport-as-a-service has been available for decades on your phone.
    We used to call it "taxi cab". It didn't make much of a dent on
    private transport.

    Yes. If owning a car is such a bad investment, then why isn't
    everyone taking taxis, Uber, Lyft, and public transit?

    I think it's mostly about population density... it makes more sense in
    areas with greater density and lower ground travel necessary. In more sprawling cities like CA, TX, AZ it's much harder to persist on ride services and public transit.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    In a city the size of Detroit a car is necessary. The physical size could
    fit 3 cities of similar population. It opens up into urban sprawl and decay once you leave downtown.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Tracker1 on Thursday, September 08, 2022 10:44:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to esc on Wed Sep 07 2022 01:52 pm

    On 9/7/22 03:36, esc wrote:

    Fair enough, but I'll say again that the overall data and trends are
    what drives the markets to change, and the data overwhelmingly points
    to a decline for desire of car ownership :)

    Of course.. you can get most of what you need delivered to you the same
    or next day at marginal additional cost (Amazon). I think the likes of Grubhub/Uber-Eats and similar are in a tough spot short of autonomous vehicles and drones for doorstep drop-off by comparison.

    That said, there's a cost to society for these things and people not
    leaving their homes. The increase in "social anxiety" is palpable to
    say the least, and by all metrics the only way around it is to actually
    get out and do things, not drugs, not therapy.

    I think if I were the likes of Walmart/Amazon, I'd actually be investing
    in larger/denser construction projects, using pod/floor systems like
    high rises in the middle east. Building with a few hundred apartments, Whole Foods and Starbucks in the building including amazon returns/drop.
    Get that population density up, own/control the market and increase dependency. While reducing last mile delivery costs. For western US cities, sprawling parking lot.. for other locations, multi-floor
    garage... developed with 1.8 spaces per unit, each rented separately.

    Not that it's what I want personally, just where my mind would be if I
    had the funds to make such a thing happen.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com


    The concept of self-contained cities has been around for as long as I can reme mber. A poor example would be the building in the movie Dredd, but the
    concept is there. Imagine a large self-contained complex with all the stores yoi'd want to visit, a health clinic, a gym, police and fire, and several buisnesses along with housing. Throw in a school as well, and a person can live and work their entire live in one building. Well, that's the idea...

    Let's say the demand for jobs or variety of job skills surpasses what is offered and can possibly be staffed internally. That means working outside
    the complex. How about the clinic needs an MRI tech and cannot source one internally. Someone is drving or riding in from somewhere else. It's not
    too big a deal since each mega complex has it's own transit station. It
    draws away from the convenience of being all in one building.

    On the down side, let's go back to the example in the movie Dredd. A
    criminal element moves in, or the place becomes a shithole that is not well maintained. The folks who can afford to leave and the good shops and industries pull out, which forces the police force to get defunded and cannot keep up with the crime level in the complex. You can offer incentives for police to get cheap housing, but who with a family will want to bring their family there?

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to esc on Thursday, September 08, 2022 10:53:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to Gamgee on Wed Sep 07 2022 08:08 pm

    Also fair enough, and I don't doubt that car sales will decrease in coming times. That will be due to the big-city population's decline in desire, but will not affect "country" folk in any significant way, because there isn't any realistic alternative for them.

    Yeah, true. We have business in Germany and it's interesting how different p rban centers are structured, and how populations are distributed.

    I am sad to say that autonomy is going to render a lot of country work redun all proportion of people will reap the majority of any financial upside. All nclusion.

    Farming automation is a big business already. GPS helped improve on planting
    a harvesting. When my family used to farm, the way the guy driving the tractor would find a tree along the tree line on the opposite end of the field, and
    use it as a reference to plant straight lines. With GPS the tractor does it itself. Planting and harvest time are the busiest times and somefarmers with huge operations would keep the planters or harvesters running 24/7, only stopping for refueling and change of drivers.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Thursday, September 08, 2022 16:55:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Fri Sep 09 2022 12:01 am

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buying a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see its value rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still lose heaps of value, but get little in return.


    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up the property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Digital Man on Thursday, September 08, 2022 07:06:00
    Digital Man wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    on sundays i elude the eyes
    and hop the turbine freight
    to fall outside the wire

    Nice reference. One correction: "To *far* outside the Wire".

    Oh, my god - I've been mishearing that for 40+ years!


    ... What context would look right?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Moondog on Thursday, September 08, 2022 20:10:53
    On 9/8/22 07:44, Moondog wrote:

    I think if I were the likes of Walmart/Amazon, I'd actually be investing
    in larger/denser construction projects, using pod/floor systems like
    high rises in the middle east. Building with a few hundred apartments,
    Whole Foods and Starbucks in the building including amazon returns/drop.
    Get that population density up, own/control the market and increase
    dependency. While reducing last mile delivery costs. For western US
    cities, sprawling parking lot.. for other locations, multi-floor
    garage... developed with 1.8 spaces per unit, each rented separately.

    Not that it's what I want personally, just where my mind would be if I
    had the funds to make such a thing happen.

    The concept of self-contained cities has been around for as long as I can reme
    mber. A poor example would be the building in the movie Dredd, but the concept is there. Imagine a large self-contained complex with all the stores yoi'd want to visit, a health clinic, a gym, police and fire, and several buisnesses along with housing. Throw in a school as well, and a person can live and work their entire live in one building. Well, that's the idea...

    It's actually pretty much what a "Mall" was supposed to be. The concept
    was to include housing and offices.


    Let's say the demand for jobs or variety of job skills surpasses what is offered and can possibly be staffed internally. That means working outside the complex. How about the clinic needs an MRI tech and cannot source one internally. Someone is drving or riding in from somewhere else. It's not too big a deal since each mega complex has it's own transit station. It draws away from the convenience of being all in one building.

    Assuming rail/car between megaplexes work... I'm thinking much smaller
    scale though.


    On the down side, let's go back to the example in the movie Dredd. A criminal element moves in, or the place becomes a shithole that is not well maintained. The folks who can afford to leave and the good shops and industries pull out, which forces the police force to get defunded and cannot keep up with the crime level in the complex. You can offer incentives for police to get cheap housing, but who with a family will want to bring their family there?

    It would largely depend on a lot of variables... if you look at
    Baltimore or Detroit that aren't megaplexes but generally shitty in
    terms of the level of crime.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Friday, September 09, 2022 23:57:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Sep 08 2022 09:30 am

    well the world went to shit in the last 2 years. i'm looking at the used car site i use and prices are a BIT higher for used cars, but not real bad. just wait it out

    You also seem confused. I'm saying
    the problem is RELIANCE on cars. You're just repeating the very point I'm making back at me.

    i'm not confused. you are being extremely abstract.
    we need cars. they are useful tools. it's not a problem.

    i'm a problem solver and I don't get attached to things. if my cars were a problem i would get rid of them.

    I don't want to walk to work and i don't want to carry my groceries from the store to my house.

    We have to have two cars because 20th century industrialised urban design made this waste necessary. We need to think of better design, so it is feasible for us to go to one car and run it less.

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running away from problems doesn't solve them.

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Nightfox on Saturday, September 10, 2022 00:01:31
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Thu Sep 08 2022 08:31 am

    I know it wasn't you who said a car is a bad investment... But that's all wrong anyway. A car is not an investment at all. It's a TOOL that is used to make life easier, like any other tool. Like a pair of pliers, or a smartphone, or a piece of software. It's not *MEANT* to increase in value. When it wears out, you buy a new one. Just like you would with a coffee maker, or a toaster.

    Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. People buy cars because they're a tool, and their usefulness is transportation (not as an investment).
    Cost benefit ratio is ALWAYS a considering. The fact it is a tool makes little difference.

    You are making a trade. Is what you recieve commensurate with what you give? Is there a more efficient way to achive the same results with less investment? Is there an investment which pays off better?

    Consider the billions spent on roads, and they only ever get SLOWER. Is that a good investment?

    I think this talk of treating it as a "tool" and you're not meant to look at cost/benefit is an attempt to avoid the fact that the car is less and less a worthwhile value propostion.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Saturday, September 10, 2022 00:13:52
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Sep 08 2022 04:55 pm

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buying a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see its value rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still lose heaps of value, but get little in return.


    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up the property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Houses generally don't go down in value. Cars almost always go down in value. But it isn't just the car, its the investment in all the infrastructure. All those roads you drive on, all that infrastructure to support, repair, plan, maintain, that is all part of the investment too. We have to pay for all that as well.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Friday, September 09, 2022 09:45:44
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 11:57 pm

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running away from problems doesn't solve them.

    that's probably what the ethiopians think.

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Friday, September 09, 2022 20:07:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 12:13 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Sep 08 2022 04:55 pm

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buying a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see its valu rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still lose heaps of value, but get little in return.


    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up t property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Houses generally don't go down in value. Cars almost always go down in valu l part of the investment too. We have to pay for all that as well.

    A car is a consumable product. A house is not unless you own a trailer home.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Friday, September 09, 2022 20:13:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Fri Sep 09 2022 09:45 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 11:57 pm

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running a from problems doesn't solve them.

    that's probably what the ethiopians think.

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.
    Moving doesn't solve a problem. The problem remains if you live there or not. I live in an area where there are less than 10 houses per mile. Cable will
    not run lines where there are less than 10 houses per half mile. People tell me to move, however the problem remains for those who live out there.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Saturday, September 10, 2022 16:12:27
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:07 pm

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buying a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see its valu rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still lose heaps of value, but get little in return.


    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up t property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Houses generally don't go down in value. Cars almost always go down in valu l part of the investment too. We have to pay for all that as well.

    A car is a consumable product. A house is not unless you own a trailer home.

    A consumable product is one that is used up or transformed during use. Food, glue, nails, cleaning products, sandpaper.

    A car is not consumable. It is a durable good. Parts of the car are consumable, such as the fuel, brake fluid, tyres, wipers, but the car, no.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Saturday, September 10, 2022 16:13:32
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:13 pm

    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 11:57 pm

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed.
    Running a from problems doesn't solve them.

    that's probably what the ethiopians think.

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.
    Moving doesn't solve a problem. The problem remains if you live there or not. I live in an area where there are less than 10 houses per mile. Cable will
    not run lines where there are less than 10 houses per half mile. People tell me to move, however the problem remains for those who live out there.

    That and I like civilisation. "Going bush" isn't an option for me. I make good money working in the city, money I would never make if I ran away from the problems of the city.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to MRO on Saturday, September 10, 2022 09:07:00
    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up the property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Almost like you cant win either way. Value goes up, taxes go up. I try not to be negative, but man, it just seems like the system is setup where cant succeed.

    One thing Ive been working on in my life, is just wanting less. For some reason I have been following a lot of people on youtube who live out of RV's, some even Vans/cars. For one, I like seeing the inventions they come up with to be able to live like this. And also, most seem so happy to not be part of the "rat race." Most live off of like 500 bucks a month. And say they live very comfortable.

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Saturday, September 10, 2022 10:58:47
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:13 pm

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.

    Moving doesn't solve a problem. The problem remains if you live there or not. I live in an area where there are less than 10 houses per mile. Cable will
    not run lines where there are less than 10 houses per half mile. People tell me to move, however the problem remains for those who live out there.

    moving doesn't solve the problem if the PERSON is the problem.

    otherwise, hell yeah it does.
    people can move some place that is more affordable, less crime, better urban development, whatever THEY want to pick.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Saturday, September 10, 2022 11:23:42
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Sep 10 2022 04:13 pm

    there.

    That and I like civilisation. "Going bush" isn't an option for me. I make good money working in the city, money I would never make if I ran away from the problems of the city.

    you live on what was essentially a prison island, so when you made a broad statement about things having to change, it's not really applicable to the rest of us.

    If i move out of the city, i'm not moving into the bush. where you live there's a finite amount of space for everything, and that space is very small.

    In the country i live in (the usa), we are #1 in habitable land.
    People can work in 'the city' and live someplace else. I've probably mentioned this before but people who work in Washington, DC can live in Virginia and other areas.

    We do not have your limitations. if I don't want to take the highway there is almost some other route i can take. there's a lot of jobs right now, and we have good internet service, water and other utilities.

    So your issues are because your country is setup on a bad foundation with little room from growth. so they can try to terraform the center of austrilia and get fresh water in there and setup housing, but we're not there yet technology wise.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Irish_Monk on Saturday, September 10, 2022 11:24:51
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 09:07 am

    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up the property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Almost like you cant win either way. Value goes up, taxes go up. I try not to be negative, but man, it just seems like the system is setup where cant succeed.

    oh they give people money to buy old houses cheap so they can renovate. then what happens 10 years later? the property taxes go through the roof and they probably can't live there.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, September 10, 2022 11:40:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Sep 10 2022 04:12 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:07 pm

    So yes, I can see why this financial advice would be given. Buy a bigger house than you need isn't a bad investment, you'll see valu rise, get more utility. Buying a bigger car, you still los heaps of value, but get little in return.


    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessin the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up t property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investm devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Houses generally don't go down in value. Cars almost always go down i valu l part of the investment too. We have to pay for all that as wel

    A car is a consumable product. A house is not unless you own a trailer home.

    A consumable product is one that is used up or transformed during use. Food

    A car is not consumable. It is a durable good. Parts of the car are consum

    Eventually the car will encounter such a major expense to maintain, and
    become no-longer reliable or safe to drive without considerable labor and expense. Unless I'm a collector or have the time, money, skills and parts, it's next owner is the scrap yard.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Saturday, September 10, 2022 11:44:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Sat Sep 10 2022 04:13 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:13 pm

    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 11:57 pm

    move someplace where you can accomplish this.

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running a from problems doesn't solve them.

    that's probably what the ethiopians think.

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.
    Moving doesn't solve a problem. The problem remains if you live there or not. I live in an area where there are less than 10 houses per mile. Cab will
    not run lines where there are less than 10 houses per half mile. People tell me to move, however the problem remains for those who live out there

    That and I like civilisation. "Going bush" isn't an option for me. I make


    Any place you go will introduce it's own unique problems.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Saturday, September 10, 2022 13:25:42
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:40 am

    Eventually the car will encounter such a major expense to maintain, and become no-longer reliable or safe to drive without considerable labor and expense. Unless I'm a collector or have the time, money, skills and parts, it's next owner is the scrap yard.

    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in and see exactly whats wrong with it.
    cars also last longer.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, September 10, 2022 17:02:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Sep 10 2022 10:58 am

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 08:13 pm

    i think you are correct. you can't ditch yourself.

    Moving doesn't solve a problem. The problem remains if you live there or not. I live in an area where there are less than 10 houses per mile. Cab will
    not run lines where there are less than 10 houses per half mile. People tell me to move, however the problem remains for those who live out there

    moving doesn't solve the problem if the PERSON is the problem.

    otherwise, hell yeah it does.
    people can move some place that is more affordable, less crime, better urban

    If the problem is crime, moving to another neighborhod doesn't cure the crime problem. It stays there aand you go somewhere else. I recall hearing about
    a restaurant owner buying and restoring a once nice place in a rough neighborhood. The place got good reviews, more traffic came through the neighborhood, and it sparked a renaissance of reconstruction and new shops nea r the restaurant. Due to the money coming in, additional police patrols followed. Everyone patted each other on the back because they cleaned up the neighborhood by investing in it. The criminal element (drugs, prostitution, robbery) were now gone. When asking a local from the area how he felt, he
    told the reporter the problem didn't go away. It only moved a couple blocks down.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Saturday, September 10, 2022 14:09:52
    On 9/10/22 09:24, MRO wrote:

    oh they give people money to buy old houses cheap so they can
    renovate. then what happens 10 years later? the property taxes
    go through the roof and they probably can't live there.

    Personally, I think property taxes as a concept is evil... I'm wholly
    against raising property taxes on a single owner faster than the rate of inflation. When a property changes hands, even through inheritance,
    sure... but never on a single owner.

    A lot of seniors in Phoenix wound up having to get reverse mortgages
    just to pay the taxes on a home they'd been in for several decades
    during the current and last housing boom... And the big money vendor
    capital machines buying up housing to turn into rental property at scale
    are particularly vicious to society.

    I'd much rather see exchange and vat taxes become the norm... if they
    taxed stock trades at even 1%, it would displace income tax.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Saturday, September 10, 2022 21:51:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 02:09 pm

    oh they give people money to buy old houses cheap so they can
    renovate. then what happens 10 years later? the property taxes
    go through the roof and they probably can't live there.

    Personally, I think property taxes as a concept is evil... I'm wholly against raising property taxes on a single owner faster than the rate of inflation. When a property changes hands, even through inheritance,
    sure... but never on a single owner.


    they are evil. my home city was jacking up the rates to businesses and homes and that's where they fucked up. they were taken to court and they lost.

    just to pay the taxes on a home they'd been in for several decades
    during the current and last housing boom... And the big money vendor
    capital machines buying up housing to turn into rental property at scale
    are particularly vicious to society.

    that's so sad. that's no way to live.
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Saturday, September 10, 2022 23:24:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Sep 10 2022 01:25 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:40 am

    Eventually the car will encounter such a major expense to maintain, and become no-longer reliable or safe to drive without considerable labor and expense. Unless I'm a collector or have the time, money, skills and part it's next owner is the scrap yard.

    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in cars also last longer.

    At some point they burn too much oil, and require the engine to be pulled
    and re-ringed, if not bored over and larger rings installed. Shocks and
    struts are pricey too. Transmission work is also pricey

    ---
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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to MRO on Sunday, September 11, 2022 01:54:00
    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in and see exactly whats wrong with it.
    cars also last longer.

    As someone who has worked on cars from the early 60s to today, I don't know if I agree with that assessment :) Cars manufactured today treat obsolescence like a feature.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Irish_Monk on Sunday, September 11, 2022 21:35:15
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Irish_Monk to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 09:07 am

    well it depends on where you live. in my region they keep accessing the properties higher and higher. that's how they make money. they jack up the property taxes.

    if you keep paying so much per year in property taxes, your investment devalues unless your gameplan is to flip it and sell it.

    Almost like you cant win either way. Value goes up, taxes go up. I try not to be negative, but man, it just seems like the system is setup where cant succeed.

    One thing Ive been working on in my life, is just wanting less. For some reason I have been following a lot of people on youtube who live out of RV's, some even Vans/cars. For one, I like seeing the inventions they come up with to be able to live like this. And also, most seem so happy to not be part of the "rat race." Most live off of like 500 bucks a month. And say they live very comfortable.

    I think the system is set up to keep us in line, keep is chained and in debt so we don't get too much independence of power.

    We will never ever get to be free. We will never get to enjoy the massive productivity improvements for financial freedom. It is designed to keep us in a position where others can have power over us because we have to submit to earn money.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Sunday, September 11, 2022 21:41:13
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Boraxman on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:23 am

    That and I like civilisation. "Going bush" isn't an option for me. I make good money working in the city, money I would never make if I ran away from the problems of the city.

    you live on what was essentially a prison island, so when you made a broad statement about things having to change, it's not really applicable to the rest of us.

    If i move out of the city, i'm not moving into the bush. where you live there's a finite amount of space for everything, and that space is very small.

    In the country i live in (the usa), we are #1 in habitable land.
    People can work in 'the city' and live someplace else. I've probably mentioned this before but people who work in Washington, DC can live in Virginia and other areas.

    We do not have your limitations. if I don't want to take the highway there is almost some other route i can take. there's a lot of jobs right now, and we have good internet service, water and other utilities.

    So your issues are because your country is setup on a bad foundation with little room from growth. so they can try to terraform the center of austrilia and get fresh water in there and setup housing, but we're not there yet technology wise.

    Part of why Australia is this way, is that Australia is pretty small minded. In my state, we pretty much think of it as Melbourne and the rest is "regional". Anything outside of the major capitals is "regional" and "country". We don't really view anything else as cities, so everything is centered around the few capital cities. And even then, not ALL the state capitals, maybe 4 of them. Past the suburban fringe of these cities (in fact, past about halfway out of the city), ther eis nothing.

    Australia is a small country in many ways. Business won't move outside of the CBD's of a few cities. Governments have tried, but they just won't move out of Melbourne and Sydney CBD's, so the rest of Australia lacks these good jobs.

    The US I understand is different, more distributed.

    This is part of the reason why I'd like to leave Australia.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Moondog on Sunday, September 11, 2022 21:43:38
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:40 am

    A car is not consumable. It is a durable good. Parts of the car are consum

    Eventually the car will encounter such a major expense to maintain, and become no-longer reliable or safe to drive without considerable labor and expense. Unless I'm a collector or have the time, money, skills and parts, it's next owner is the scrap yard.


    Yes, but that doesn't make it a consumable. All equipment will do that eventually, but they are not consumables. Highly specialised packing equipment will also do that, but no business will classify this equipment as a consumable.

    There is nothing special about a car, as compared to any other machine or equipment.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Irish_Monk@VERT/WARPED to Boraxman on Sunday, September 11, 2022 10:19:00
    I think the system is set up to keep us in line, keep is chained and in debt so we don't get too much independence of power.

    We will never ever get to be free. We will never get to enjoy the
    massive productivity improvements for financial freedom. It is designed to keep us in a position where others can have power over us because we have to submit to earn money.

    I definitely agree with you there!! No doubt about it!!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... What was the best thing before sliced bread?
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sunday, September 11, 2022 12:42:18
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:24 pm


    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in cars also last longer.

    At some point they burn too much oil, and require the engine to be pulled and re-ringed, if not bored over and larger rings installed. Shocks and struts are pricey too. Transmission work is also pricey

    my one car is 16 years old and hasnt had those issues.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to esc on Sunday, September 11, 2022 12:44:23
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: esc to MRO on Sun Sep 11 2022 01:54 am

    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in and see exactly whats wrong with it.
    cars also last longer.

    As someone who has worked on cars from the early 60s to today, I don't know if I agree with that assessment :) Cars manufactured today treat obsolescence like a feature.

    well scotty kilmer says it so it has to be right.
    these asian cars also last a very long time with minimal issues.

    dont get a cvt transmission.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Tracker1 on Friday, September 09, 2022 07:33:00
    Tracker1 wrote to Moondog <=-

    It's actually pretty much what a "Mall" was supposed to be. The concept was to include housing and offices.

    Fsacebook has been pretty quiet about their "campus" approach. They've been working on a combined housing/office campus in Silicon Valley, where you'd live in on-campus housing, dine with your co-workers in local cafes, and I'm sure they offered the same suite of amenities that all the other tech companies offered.

    What do you do when there's a pandemic, or when you're laid off? I couldn't imagine losing my job and having to a) live where I was just laid off, and
    b) be forced to look for new housing while I was unemployed.

    If you were fresh out of college, it might be an easy transition, and kinda cool. The last thing tech companies need are new workers thinking it's
    college all over again.


    ... Meaningless in the absence of time. What never was is never again.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, September 11, 2022 22:04:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Sep 11 2022 12:42 pm

    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:24 pm


    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug in cars also last longer.

    At some point they burn too much oil, and require the engine to be pulled and re-ringed, if not bored over and larger rings installed. Shocks and struts are pricey too. Transmission work is also pricey

    my one car is 16 years old and hasnt had those issues.

    Most modern engines are built better, and will not burn oil or run into problems unless they are abused or the oil hadn't been maintained on a
    regular interval. As long as they keep cool and do not suffer from los s of coolant or oil circulation, you can expect a motor to run over 200k miles.
    My broterh was into off roading and trail riding, and his trail rigs were
    older trucks that were easy to work on. 350 Chevy's 351 Clevelands, Chrysler
    318's, the usual naturally aspiriated V8's. The metallurgy or tolerances weren't as good in those old motors, and they'd start brning oil around 100k miles.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, September 11, 2022 22:08:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Tracker1 on Fri Sep 09 2022 07:33 am

    Tracker1 wrote to Moondog <=-

    It's actually pretty much what a "Mall" was supposed to be. The concept was to include housing and offices.

    Fsacebook has been pretty quiet about their "campus" approach. They've been working on a combined housing/office campus in Silicon Valley, where you'd live in on-campus housing, dine with your co-workers in local cafes, and I'm sure they offered the same suite of amenities that all the other tech companies offered.

    What do you do when there's a pandemic, or when you're laid off? I couldn't imagine losing my job and having to a) live where I was just laid off, and b) be forced to look for new housing while I was unemployed.

    If you were fresh out of college, it might be an easy transition, and kinda cool. The last thing tech companies need are new workers thinking it's college all over again.


    ... Meaningless in the absence of time. What never was is never again.

    You never know. Housing may be part of the compensation/ benefits, just like how some companies help assist new employees move and find homes near work.
    if you want more than the standard issue apartment, then it's on your dime.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to MRO on Monday, September 12, 2022 20:27:58
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Sep 11 2022 12:42 pm

    cars are getting easier. a good mechanic with a GOOD scanner can plug it in cars also last longer.

    At some point they burn too much oil, and require the engine to be pulled and re-ringed, if not bored over and larger rings installed. Shocks and struts are pricey too. Transmission work is also pricey

    my one car is 16 years old and hasnt had those issues.

    Mine is 18 years old, and I have barely had an issue with it. Toyota Corolla.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Monday, September 12, 2022 17:06:12
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Fri Sep 09 2022 11:57 pm

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running away

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.


    You can't have your cake and eat it.

    Here is the thing: if you live in a rural area, you have worse than average Internet coverage and less diversity of services. It is not realistic to think you can fix those in a short ammount of time. In real life, if the place you live in has issues that really do bother you, you move to a place which does not bother you.

    I'd love to have better Internet, but I love the fact I can grab my dinner from a bush anytime I feel like it better. If you live in a big city you get access to lots of services but you eat crap which has been stored in refrigerators for too long and your logistics are impaired and cut to serve the smaller common denominator. It comes with the package. You can't really have the benefits without the drawbacks.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Monday, September 12, 2022 17:25:56
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Sat Sep 10 2022 11:44 am

    Any place you go will introduce it's own unique problems.

    The point is finding a place you like enough and whose problems you can put up with. It is really that simple.

    See, if you live in the middle of nowhere, there is less people, less crime, more freedom... but also no girls to date. If peace and quiet is more important than getting laid every other day then you'll be fine in that place. If not, it is just that that place's drawbacks are just too much for you to handle and you need somewhere else where you can find what you want.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Arelor on Wednesday, September 14, 2022 22:18:45
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Mon Sep 12 2022 05:06 pm

    Why should I move? If there is a problem, it should be fixed. Running away

    Even if I move, the same issue will follow me there.


    You can't have your cake and eat it.

    Here is the thing: if you live in a rural area, you have worse than average Internet coverage and less diversity of services. It is not realistic to think you can fix those in a short ammount of time. In real life, if the place you live in has issues that really do bother you, you move to a place which does not bother you.

    I'd love to have better Internet, but I love the fact I can grab my dinner from a bush anytime I feel like it better. If you live in a big city you get access to lots of services but you eat crap which has been stored in refrigerators for too long and your logistics are impaired and cut to serve the smaller common denominator. It comes with the package. You can't really have the benefits without the drawbacks.


    Life when you grew up must have been very different for you than it was for me.

    I grew up in Melbourne, and we had access to good food. Fresh food was available at markets easily. We went every weekend as a family when I was a child.

    It is greed which saw them all dissapear. I KNOW we can make things works, because I saw it working.

    We know how, we just have to deal with parasites who won't let us have nice things.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org
  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to MRO on Tuesday, September 13, 2022 16:39:00
    MRO wrote to esc <=-

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should really put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to commute for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we could

    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    *Some* companies don't want their people to work from home. Other companies (like the one I work at) love that their employees work remotely and
    provides all the resources necessary for those remote employees. My last
    three employers all preferred people work remotely, I haven't worked
    full-time in an office since 2010.


    -+- Brightening your day. -Bex <3

    ... "Hello, rock-stupid cop!" -- Crow T. Robot
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
    þ Synchronet þ -=[ conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS ]=-
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to bex on Wednesday, September 14, 2022 12:29:10
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to MRO on Tue Sep 13 2022 04:39 pm

    *Some* companies don't want their people to work from home. Other companies (like the one I work at) love that their employees work remotely and provides all the resources necessary for those remote employees. My last three employers all preferred people work remotely, I haven't worked full-time in an office since 2010.

    I think I might start to feel stir-crazy if I worked from home too long, but there are times when I'd like to work from home rather than go into the office.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to bex on Wednesday, September 14, 2022 23:17:00
    Re: Re: Apollo 11
    By: bex to MRO on Tue Sep 13 2022 04:39 pm

    MRO wrote to esc <=-

    I agree now more than ever. The whole "work from home" thing should reall put a nail in the coffin of much of the need for scores of people to comm for work. Fewer people commuting is a benefit to everyone, if only we cou

    yeah but companies don't want people to work from home.
    the middle managment needs something to do.

    *Some* companies don't want their people to work from home. Other companies (like the one I work at) love that their employees work remotely and provides all the resources necessary for those remote employees. My last three employers all preferred people work remotely, I haven't worked full-time in an office since 2010.


    -+- Brightening your day. -Bex <3

    ... "Hello, rock-stupid cop!" -- Crow T. Robot

    Last year I was working for a health care system that was doing an EPIC software suite migration. The departments that didn't deal directly with patients or were developers or clerical in nature cleared out entire floors
    of employees by having them work from home. In order to upgrade any non-compl iant hardware they had required making an appointment or knowing which days
    an employee was scheduled to come into the office. The work at home people didn't all have laptops. Some preferred a desktop and dual displays over a laptop and docking station. They all had webcams for meetings no matter what they used.

    ---
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  • From bex@VERT/CONCHAOS to Nightfox on Monday, September 19, 2022 16:11:00
    Nightfox wrote to bex <=-

    and provides all the resources necessary for those remote employees. My last three employers all preferred people work remotely, I haven't worked full-time in an office since 2010.

    I think I might start to feel stir-crazy if I worked from home too
    long, but there are times when I'd like to work from home rather than
    go into the office.

    There are definitely periods of feeling stir-crazy on my side. But I think
    back to being in the office for those first two or so hours after lunch
    when things get sooooo boring and I just want to take a nap, but I can't because my boss would come by and say "Rebecca, WAKE UP!!!!" and then all
    of my teammates would laugh at me and...

    Yeah, I'm not in a hurry to go back into an office anywhere.



    -+- Brightening your day. -Bex <3

    ... "Jules, if you give that fuckin' nimrod fifteen hundred dollars, I'm gonna s
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
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  • From Porosz@VERT/AMIGAC to Ogg on Sunday, September 25, 2022 12:56:06
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Ogg to Tracker1 on Mon Aug 22 2022 07:47:00


    .. When you see part of the moon in darkness, it's the
    Earth's shadow on the moon.

    Wrong.

    The shadow is due to the sun, not the earth. The only time the
    earth's shadow hits the moon is during a lunar eclipse.

    Are you sure? I think it is the reflection of the sun and the shadow of the earth that you see. The earth is just blocking the rays.

    ---
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  • From Charles Blackburn@VERT/FBOBBS to Porosz on Sunday, September 25, 2022 19:28:41
    Re: Apollo 11
    By: Porosz to Ogg on Sun Sep 25 2022 12:56:06

    .. When you see part of the moon in darkness, it's the
    Earth's shadow on the moon.
    The shadow is due to the sun, not the earth. The only time the
    earth's shadow hits the moon is during a lunar eclipse.
    Are you sure? I think it is the reflection of the sun and the shadow of the earth that you see. The earth is just blocking
    the rays.

    yes it's not the earths shadow that causes the dark side of the moon.

    you ever tried shining a light on a ball from one side.. the other side is devoid of light lol

    regards
    ---

    Charles Blackburn
    The F.B.O BBS 21:1/221 618:250/36
    bbs.thefbo.us IPV4/V6
    DOVE-Net FSX-Net MicroNET USENET
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