Get off my lawnHey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
Arelor wrote to Pparker <=-
Get off my lawn
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
Similar case here.
It is not only dinosaurs who are disgusted with the current state
of the www and want to prowl a saner environment instead.
Arelor wrote to Pparker <=-
Get off my lawn
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
Similar case here.
It is not only dinosaurs who are disgusted with the current state
of the www and want to prowl a saner environment instead.
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
... She kept saying I didn't listen to her, or something like that.
Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
Similar case here.
It is not only dinosaurs who are disgusted with the current state
of the www and want to prowl a saner environment instead.
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
If you think a 25 years old is a baby, you are already a
dinosaur.
I used to tell that to my father because he has called people as
old as 35 "kid" or youngster, which gets to my nerves. Hell, some
"kids" operate millions of dollar in equipment.
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Sun Aug 30 2020 09:12 am
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
Don't matter what age group use BBS's now. The important thing is to
keep getting more users invloved in it. The point and click users will never be into the BBS. Most probably can't or won't type. lol. I think it's great seeing younger folks finding BBSin!
Don't matter what age group use BBS's now. The important thing is to
keep getting more users invloved in it. The point and click users
will never be into the BBS. Most probably can't or won't type. lol.
I think it's great seeing younger folks finding BBSin!
Most people probably would wonder what the value of the BBS is, seeing as they can't share pictures of their smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Sun Aug 30 2020 09:12 am
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
Don't matter what age group use BBS's now. The important thing is to keep getting more users invloved in it. The point and click users will never be into the BBS. Most probably can't or won't type. lol. I think it's great seeing younger folks finding BBSin!
Most people probably would wonder what the value of the BBS is, seeing as th can't share pictures of their smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
we dont really have that many users anymore other than other sysops.
i'm thinking of making all my systems private.
Get off my lawnHey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
I still 'run my bbs for myself', or I should say its main purpose is to be my window to the outside BBS world.. but I've created some bits that other users find interesting too; I don't think I'll come and go... I can let that raspberry pi live on forever. :PMost people probably would wonder what the value of the BBS is, seein they can't share pictures of their smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
well honestly i think people that run bbses wonder what the value of a
bbs is if they are open minded enough. there's the guys that say 'i
just run it for myse lf' but they come and go.
we dont really have that many users anymore other than other sysops.
i'm thinking of making all my systems private.
---
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
Don't matter what age group use BBS's now. The important thing is to
keep getting more users invloved in it. The point and click users will never be into the BBS. Most probably can't or won't type. lol. I think it's great seeing younger folks finding BBSin!
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to HusTler on Mon Aug 31 2020 09:31 am
HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Sun Aug 30 2020 09:12 am
Hey, I'm only 25 and have only used BBS' for a few years. Some
young folk do use this stuff!
And just for completeness, there is a middle ground of users who
fall in somewhere between "babies" and "dinosaurs"... ;-)
Don't matter what age group use BBS's now. The important thing is to keep getting more users invloved in it. The point and click users will never be into the BBS. Most probably can't or won't type. lol. I think it's great seeing younger folks finding BBSin!
Most people probably would wonder what the value of the BBS is, seeing as th can't share pictures of their smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Well, BBS does not look like the best place for building a fanbase and
all that stuff modern nettizens want.
Last week I was thinking I needed some strong social media presence for promoting my short stories and such... Web based social media has all these features that shoehorn posts from third parties into people's
news feed... BBS don't really allow you to share comercial content you found elsewhere and force it into your friends newsfeed in a convenient way without looking spammy.
For users, that is a feature. For people who needs to promote
themselves, it is not much of an advantage.
To be honest, I am likely to skip social media for promoting stories
the same way I skip it for everything else. Maybe I should try to Establish my brand here as an experiment?
#HorseAIWillGetUs #ZombiesUseAntimatterCannons #FalkenBestWriter
Arelor wrote to MRO <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: MRO to Dennisk on Sun Aug 30 2020 07:34 pm
we dont really have that many users anymore other than other sysops.
i'm thinking of making all my systems private.
I was thinking about setting my own private board for myself and some friends, but it does not make much sense. There are many BBS out there that are well administrated... It is easier to bring people to an
existing one.
paulie420 wrote to MRO <=-
Most people probably would wonder what the value of the BBS is, seein they can't share pictures of their smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
well honestly i think people that run bbses wonder what the value of a
bbs is if they are open minded enough. there's the guys that say 'i
just run it for myse lf' but they come and go.
we dont really have that many users anymore other than other sysops.
i'm thinking of making all my systems private.
---
I still 'run my bbs for myself', or I should say its main purpose is to
be my window to the outside BBS world.. but I've created some bits that other users find interesting too; I don't think I'll come and go... I
can let that raspberry pi live on forever. :P
Also, with all the youtube retro computing and facebook groups out
there.. I wonder how many of the old BBSers even know that theres a current scene. I wonder what EXTRA things we can add to draw them, and
I wonder if a marketing campaign would draw NEW users to BBSing. I know that *I* simply didn't know there was a scene 5 years ago - once I did,
I jumped right back in... think theres more people just like me?
I do.
Most people probably would wonder what the value of
the BBS is, seein they can't share pictures of their
smashed avo breakfast or #IAmAnInfluencer.
Also, with all the youtube retro computing and facebook
groups out there.. I wonder how many of the old BBSers even
know that theres a current scene.
I wonder what EXTRA things we can add to draw them, and I
wonder if a marketing campaign would draw NEW users to
BBSing. I know that *I* simply didn't know there was a
scene 5 years ago - once I did, I jumped right back in...
think theres more people just like me? I do.
I consider it a feature. I use Facebook, but it is mostly garbage. I only stay for the memes, and to see pictures and information about certain hobbie but it all pretty shallow. The whole business with "influencers" is just distasteful and when you really think about it, it is almost all noise, litt signal. It seems to encourage bad behaviour, reactionary impulses and confl and been overall a negative to civilisation. Twitter hate mobs and social media "activism" are just major problems.
like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy
programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in
with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and
portability.
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use
BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility,
and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something has changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term),
and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who
take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a
Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming
on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking
at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used
BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures
that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portab
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised. Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Each generation does have an interested in the one that preceded it, and how things were done
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portability.
On 09-01-20 11:32, Starman wrote to Dennisk <=-
There's a fair-sized userbase-in-potentia of these folks in places like the "tildeverse", a loose federation of public-access Unix systems,
like tilde.town or tilde.club, where the emphasis is on text-based communication and old protocols like Gopher or UUCP networking.
Vk3jed wrote to Starman <=-
There's a fair-sized userbase-in-potentia of these folks in places like the "tildeverse", a loose federation of public-access Unix systems,
like tilde.town or tilde.club, where the emphasis is on text-based communication and old protocols like Gopher or UUCP networking.
Now these sound like interesting places. My first email and
newsfeed was via UUCP (I had to run UUPC under DOS on my end).
These days, Linux would be the obvious platform of choice for
UUCP. :)
I still like good old fashioned text. :)
Now these sound like interesting places. My first email and newsfeed was via UUCP (I had to run UUPC under DOS on my end). These days, Linux would be the obvious platform of choice for
UUCP. :)
I still like good old fashioned text. :)
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Tue Sep 01 2020 09:24 am
I consider it a feature. I use Facebook, but it is mostly garbage. I only stay for the memes, and to see pictures and information about certain hobbie but it all pretty shallow. The whole business with "influencers" is just distasteful and when you really think about it, it is almost all noise, litt signal. It seems to encourage bad behaviour, reactionary impulses and confl and been overall a negative to civilisation. Twitter hate mobs and social media "activism" are just major problems.
I used meme websites for my meme fix. Nowadays I regard it as time wasting. Also, the popular ones turned into cesspools - at least the
ones I visited.
Social media signal has been falling down and it is an established fact found by serious studies. Organic reach of Facebook has been falling
down very hard. Four years ago, if you posted something relevant,
chances were high your friends or intended audience would see your
post. Nowadays, chances are they won't see it because it is lost in an endless ocean of noise. I don't have the numbers but they are very telling... like losing 90% of reachability in 4 or 6 years or something like that.
Starman wrote to Dennisk <=-w
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Tue Sep 01 2020 09:56:00
like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people
ho are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoyl
programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only
ooking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarelyattract
used BBS's in the past, it would fit in
with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What
s me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just
nostalgia now, it's simplicity and
portability.
There's a fair-sized userbase-in-potentia of these folks in places like the "tildeverse", a loose federation of public-access Unix systems,
like tilde.town or tilde.club, where the emphasis is on text-based communication and old protocols like Gopher or UUCP networking.
There are also a few other places that embrace the "comfy" '90s text aesthetic, like Whisperchan (ssh bit@whisper.onthewifi.com, password byte).
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use
BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility,
and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something has changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term),
and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who
take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a
Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming
on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking
at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used
BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures
that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portab
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised.
Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Each generation does have an interested in the one that preceded it, and how things were done
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that
the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang
for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally]
include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and
I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but
I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures...
like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing'
[I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right
now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to
BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the
pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Tue Sep 01 2020 09:56 am
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portability.
There's still a lot of chatter on Reddit (r/retrobattlestations, r/vintagecomputing and r/vintageapple) regarding BBS's. Whenever I log
in I see people posting pictures of Apple //s, compact Macs, Kaypro's, PETs, c64's, Tandy TRS's, Compaq's, Amigas and IBM's... etc, on BBS's.
I reckon most of these people stick to the Level 29 BBS which is the official vintage computing Reddit BBS. There seems to be a lot of
traffic on that one with plenty discussion exclusively on the hobby. I even came across a novelty BBS hosted by a genuine unmodified Apple //e switching between two seperate 5.25" floppy disk drives. It's one of
the most unresponsive BBS's I've ever posted on, but well worth it due
to the nostalgia factor. There's also another BBS hosted by an Apple
IIgs which has a large community of over 15 regulars. They mostly speak about modding Apple systems, specifically the Apple //. It seems like there is quite a lot of active BBS's out there with dedicated
communities. Anyone wanting to communicate with a retro machine, like
me, will be forced into using a BBS, so I guess many of the diehards
are here to stay.
On 09-02-20 10:05, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Me too. I didn't know this "tildeverse" existed! Gonna be
checking those sites out further when I get some 'spare' time.
On 09-02-20 14:47, Starman wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I never used UUCP "directly", but I had a friend long ago whose email
was via UUCP, somehow; I remember the bang-routing in their address.
I wonder if any email server software still supports UUCP, anymore?
Maybe qmail?
I still like good old fashioned text. :)
There are dozens of us, I tell you. Dozens! :p
I see from your signature you're in Australia? aussies.space is the/a public-access system in Oz affiliated with the "tildeverse", if you
want to have a look.
On 09-03-20 12:50, Dennisk wrote to paulie420 <=-
@VIA: VERT/EOTLBBS
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use
BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility,
and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something has changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term),
and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who
take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a
Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming
on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking
at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used
BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures
that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portab
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised.
Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that
the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang
for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally]
include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and
I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but
I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures...
like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing'
[I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right
now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to
BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the
pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a powerful new Linux system, but really, the ONLY thing I would do with it, that I can't do now, is play Doom 2016 and Eternal.
Odd, back in the 90's I always wanted more power, better graphics, more RAM, better sound. I couldn't wait to move on from the Vic 20 to the Commodore 64. To upgrade from a 386 for more ram and better frame
rates. I got into the home microcomputers late (1991-93), and for a shorter period of time, unfortunately.
Just in the last few days, I've started to learn machine code for the Commodore range, and written a small bouncing ball demo for the Vic 20 (even if just on the simulator). Earlier this year I get a couple of 486's I have working again, for the authentic 90's DOS experience.
I've often used BBS's on the 486 with a CRT screen.
Part of it is nostalgia, I am more interested in the machines I used to have, than those I didn't, but the other part is they are simply more
interesting. They are complete systems, which you can control
completely and understand, inside and out. They work at an
understandble scale, there is no equivalent today. Also, it was true
minimalism, not a "fake" minimalism, that some websites seem to create. Because with modern machines, you are just dealing with abstractions on abstractions, and are locked out of the hardware, they aren't
interesting. Having just the power you need to get the task done makes things simpler and more pleasurable than having complicated,
overpowered, overcomplicated solutions.
There's a fair-sized userbase-in-potentia of these folks in places like the "tildeverse", a loose federation of public-access Unix systems, like tilde.town or tilde.club
The rest of the world pisses me off, with people being so addicted to video, and I hate instructional video with a passion, so hard to work with when learning something
hand on.
I'm personally not too fond of the tildeverse, they come across as trying too hard to make something from 2014 look like
it's from 1994. Then again, I have a Neocities site, so I can't really say much.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Vk3jed to Starman on Thu Sep 03 2020 18:06:00
The rest of the world pisses me off, with people being so addicted to vid and I hate instructional video with a passion, so hard to work with when learning something
hand on.
I think they're a weird and unintended consequence of everybody accessing th web with a smartphone or tablet, and a consequent reluctance to type anythin lengthy. It's too laborious to type out four paragraphs on a phone; much, *much* easier to just make a rambling 15-minute video. Never mind that you'r wasting 13 minutes of everyone's life. (Plus however long the inevitable unskippable ads peppered in last...)
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility, and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something ha changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people wh go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and int DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rathe than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and por
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS, and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised. Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Each generation does have an interested in the one that preceded it, an how things were done
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally] include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures... like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing' [I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a powerful new Linux system, but real the ONLY thing I would do with it, that I can't do now, is play Doom 2016 an Eternal.
Odd, back in the 90's I always wanted more power, better graphics, more RAM, better sound. I couldn't wait to move on from the Vic 20 to the Commodore 6 To upgrade from a 386 for more ram and better frame rates. I got into the h microcomputers late (1991-93), and for a shorter period of time, unfortunate
I didn't know until I was 12 that I actually did have an interest in computing, and by then it had pretty much passed, with the first two machine had already being way out of date when I got them. (They were from a garage sale, pretty cheap).
Just in the last few days, I've started to learn machine code for the Commod range, and written a small bouncing ball demo for the Vic 20 (even if just o the simulator). Earlier this year I get a couple of 486's I have working again, for the authentic 90's DOS experience. I've often used BBS's on the with a CRT screen.
Like you, I honestly would rather spend money getting a project or old syste running. I think at this point I would want a new VIC chip for my Vic 20 wh currenlty yields no image (but still seems to successfully load programs fro tape) than a new NVIDIA graphics card. Part of it is nostalgia, I am more interested in the machines I used to have, than those I didn't, but the othe part is they are simply more interesting. They are complete systems, which can control completely and understand, inside and out. They work at an understandble scale, there is no equivalent today. Also, it was true minimalism, not a "fake" minimalism, that some websites seem to create. Because with modern machines, you are just dealing with abstractions on abstractions, and are locked out of the hardware, they aren't interesting. Having just the power you need to get the task done makes things simpler and more pleasurable than having complicated, overpowered, overcomplicated solutions.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Tue Sep 01 2020 09:56 am
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), an THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go t recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy o YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, stil like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the peop who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The k of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Eve if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with thei interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it' simplicity and portability.
There's still a lot of chatter on Reddit (r/retrobattlestations, r/vintagecomputing and r/vintageapple) regarding BBS's. Whenever I log in I see people posting pictures of Apple //s, compact Macs, Kaypro's, PETs, c64's, Tandy TRS's, Compaq's, Amigas and IBM's... etc, on BBS's. I reckon most of these people stick to the Level 29 BBS which is the official vintage computing Reddit BBS. There seems to be a lot of traffic on that one with plenty discussion exclusively on the hobby. I even came across a novelty BBS hosted by a genuine unmodified Apple //e switching between two seperate 5.25" floppy disk drives. It's one of the most unresponsive BBS's I've ever posted on, but well worth it due to the nostalgia factor. There's also another BBS hosted by an Apple IIgs which has a large community of over 15 regulars. They mostly speak about modding Apple systems, specifically the Apple //. It seems like there is quite a lot of active BBS's out there with dedicated communities. Anyone wanting to communicate with a retro machine, like me, will be forced into using a BBS, so I guess many of the diehards are here to stay.
Thats good to hear.
The real retro equipment is now hard to find, expensive. I have some (most an XT, a couple of 486s, a broken Vic 20 which is probably repairable and so C64's (one or two faulty, datasette, 1571 disk drive), but important bits an pieces are missing.
I'd love to see NEW "retro equipment". Not like the THE64, or the mini NES which are running simulations, but actual new machines, with very modest CPU/RAM, basic graphics and IO, a keyboard maybe built in, which would work just like those old machines. It would be good if they brought the C64 and peripherals back into production (albeit with minor modifications to make it workable today), or even if a new true 8-bit home computer style machine was created, with a built in OS ROM, and video and sound chip.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
On 09-03-20 12:50, Dennisk wrote to paulie420 <=-
@VIA: VERT/EOTLBBS
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility, and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something ha changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
Yeah, I use both, each has a place, but the modern world is now so video obsessed, they watch a ton of YouTube clips, and worst of all, instructional videos. I still like a well written manual. A PDF will suffice (and search can be useful), but a "dead tree" version is often easier to work through.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people wh go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and int DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rathe than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and por
I like the simplicity and efficiency of BBSs. No waiting for laggy web page to load, just flip through messages in an offline reader. :)
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS, and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised. Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Some of us aren't UI people. ;) I prefer to work with functionality. Back the day, that included email and news gating, and some other tricks. Today, there's less of a call, but still options.
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally] include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I do need a certain level of performance for real time DSP, and as hardware becomes cheaper, bandwidth will increase, and I'll want to consume more CPU cycles. ;) One of my machines has around 10% constant load from two SDRs be created out of the same 2.4 Msamples/sec incoming data. I do want to add a second SDR front end in a different band, when I've got my head around the ALSA-foo required to be able to correctly identify each device.
Unfortunately, only the RTL-SDR dongles are currently supported, which have some limitations (2.4 - 2.8 MHz maximum usable sample rate and an 8 bit ADC, which limits dynamic range).
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
Haha not me, I think I could have your Thinkpad running in circles trying to catch up. :D
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures... like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
I'd like an old Apple and a DOS era PC as a start.
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing' [I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
There does seem to be a strong retro computing movement, at least the hardwa seems to be in demand. I wonder if there's any untapped sources of abandone retro hardware.
And it's not only computers, here in Australia, CB radio is making a bit of comeback, with strong interest in the older classic CBs. I'm glad I kept my old 27 MHz and UHF CBs, might be worth firing some of those up at the next house. :)
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a powerful new Linux system, but really, the ONLY thing I would do with it, that I can't do now, is play Doom 2016 and Eternal.
I have enough power for now, but when the time comes, I would upgrade.
Odd, back in the 90's I always wanted more power, better graphics, more RAM, better sound. I couldn't wait to move on from the Vic 20 to the Commodore 64. To upgrade from a 386 for more ram and better frame rates. I got into the home microcomputers late (1991-93), and for a shorter period of time, unfortunately.
Haha didn't we all? ;) I was a user since 1982 at school, and a PC user sin 1986. Was building my own PCs by 91. :)
Just in the last few days, I've started to learn machine code for the Commodore range, and written a small bouncing ball demo for the Vic 20 (even if just on the simulator). Earlier this year I get a couple of 486's I have working again, for the authentic 90's DOS experience.
I've often used BBS's on the 486 with a CRT screen.
I preferred the Apple in the 8 bit days. The thing that really put me off Commodore was some of the non standard and illogical BASIC commands - the floppy disk of the C64 being really weird. The C64 was the only machine of day that I couldn't get a simple BASIC program working on - that included ev some unknown brand machines at a computer fair that I was able to code up a simple demo program on.
Part of it is nostalgia, I am more interested in the machines I used to have, than those I didn't, but the other part is they are simply more
I readily admit to a bit of nostalgia, especially for the Apple II series of machines. Also a bit for early DOS era, up to at least the 386, when DOS wa king, and one had to be a guru with QEMM to get the most out of them. :) Ev the humble XT (and clones), because I was there.
interesting. They are complete systems, which you can control completely and understand, inside and out. They work at an understandble scale, there is no equivalent today. Also, it was true
True
minimalism, not a "fake" minimalism, that some websites seem to create. Because with modern machines, you are just dealing with abstractions on abstractions, and are locked out of the hardware, they aren't
That's so true, it's not even possible to program in the true native instructions of today's processors - the x84_64 instruction set actually sit atop a hardware translation layer within the chip itself.
interesting. Having just the power you need to get the task done makes things simpler and more pleasurable than having complicated, overpowered, overcomplicated solutions.
I must admit, there is an elegance to that, though when the power is around, will make use of it. :) Problem is modern machines are so powerful I usuall run out of other resources (often IP addresses), before I stress the machine )
... I shoot every third salesperson that calls. The second one just left.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-03-20 12:50, Dennisk wrote to paulie420 <=-
@VIA: VERT/EOTLBBS
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use
BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility,
and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something has changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
Yeah, I use both, each has a place, but the modern world is now so
video obsessed, they watch a ton of YouTube clips, and worst of all, instructional videos. I still like a well written manual. A PDF will suffice (and search can be useful), but a "dead tree" version is often easier to work through.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term),
and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people who go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who
take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a
Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rather than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming
on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking
at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used
BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures
that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form, not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and portab
I like the simplicity and efficiency of BBSs. No waiting for laggy web pages to load, just flip through messages in an offline reader. :)
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised.
Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Some of us aren't UI people. ;) I prefer to work with functionality.
Back in the day, that included email and news gating, and some other tricks. Today, there's less of a call, but still options.
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that
the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang
for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally]
include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and
I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I do need a certain level of performance for real time DSP, and as hardware becomes cheaper, bandwidth will increase, and I'll want to consume more CPU cycles. ;) One of my machines has around 10% constant load from two SDRs being created out of the same 2.4 Msamples/sec
incoming data. I do want to add a second SDR front end in a different band, when I've got my head around the ALSA-foo required to be able to correctly identify each device.
Unfortunately, only the RTL-SDR dongles are currently supported, which have some limitations (2.4 - 2.8 MHz maximum usable sample rate and an
8 bit ADC, which limits dynamic range).
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
Haha not me, I think I could have your Thinkpad running in circles
trying to catch up. :D
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but
I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures...
like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
I'd like an old Apple and a DOS era PC as a start.
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing'
[I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right
now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to
BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the
pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
There does seem to be a strong retro computing movement, at least the hardware seems to be in demand. I wonder if there's any untapped
sources of abandoned retro hardware.
And it's not only computers, here in Australia, CB radio is making a
bit of a comeback, with strong interest in the older classic CBs. I'm glad I kept my old 27 MHz and UHF CBs, might be worth firing some of
those up at the next house. :)
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a powerful new Linux system, but really, the ONLY thing I would do with it, that I can't do now, is play Doom 2016 and Eternal.
I have enough power for now, but when the time comes, I would upgrade.
Odd, back in the 90's I always wanted more power, better graphics, more RAM, better sound. I couldn't wait to move on from the Vic 20 to the Commodore 64. To upgrade from a 386 for more ram and better frame
rates. I got into the home microcomputers late (1991-93), and for a shorter period of time, unfortunately.
Haha didn't we all? ;) I was a user since 1982 at school, and a PC
user since 1986. Was building my own PCs by 91. :)
Just in the last few days, I've started to learn machine code for the Commodore range, and written a small bouncing ball demo for the Vic 20 (even if just on the simulator). Earlier this year I get a couple of 486's I have working again, for the authentic 90's DOS experience.
I've often used BBS's on the 486 with a CRT screen.
I preferred the Apple in the 8 bit days. The thing that really put me
off Commodore was some of the non standard and illogical BASIC commands
- the floppy disk of the C64 being really weird. The C64 was the only machine of its day that I couldn't get a simple BASIC program working
on - that included even some unknown brand machines at a computer fair that I was able to code up a simple demo program on.
Part of it is nostalgia, I am more interested in the machines I used to have, than those I didn't, but the other part is they are simply more
I readily admit to a bit of nostalgia, especially for the Apple II
series of machines. Also a bit for early DOS era, up to at least the
386, when DOS was king, and one had to be a guru with QEMM to get the
most out of them. :) Even the humble XT (and clones), because I was there.
interesting. They are complete systems, which you can control
completely and understand, inside and out. They work at an
understandble scale, there is no equivalent today. Also, it was true
True
minimalism, not a "fake" minimalism, that some websites seem to create. Because with modern machines, you are just dealing with abstractions on abstractions, and are locked out of the hardware, they aren't
That's so true, it's not even possible to program in the true native instructions of today's processors - the x84_64 instruction set
actually sits atop a hardware translation layer within the chip itself.
interesting. Having just the power you need to get the task done makes things simpler and more pleasurable than having complicated,
overpowered, overcomplicated solutions.
I must admit, there is an elegance to that, though when the power is around, I will make use of it. :) Problem is modern machines are so powerful I usually run out of other resources (often IP addresses),
before I stress the machine. )
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Thu Sep 03 2020 12:50 pm
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
I think there are, though some of the people I know who used to use BBS's have moved on, and would consider the new technology a definate replacement. Many former users would only really look at the utility, and would see no point. They left for a reason, and unless something ha changed, there is no reason to go back for them.
There are people who are into "retro-computing" (I dislike that term), and THEY would be more likely to get into BBS's. The kind of people wh go to recycling centres to pick up old PC's, Kaypro's, Osbornes, who take pride in geting an Apple IIe up and running. People who watch LGR and 8-Bit Guy on YouTube. People like me who are meddling with a Commodore 64 again, still like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and int DOS. It would be the people who are into the aesthetic and form, rathe than the pure utility. The kind of people who still enjoy programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than only looking at the next janky web framework. Even if they never or rarely used BBS's in the past, it would fit in with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What attracts me to the BBS, is the form not the function. It's not just nostalgia now, it's simplicity and por
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS, and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised. Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
Each generation does have an interested in the one that preceded it, an how things were done
Well, the person you've described IS me... lol. I really love it that the hardware I'm interested in is low-cost, for the most part.. and a high-end system of todays standards really doesn't offer ME any bang for the buck. The things that I am interested in don't [normally] include fast frame-rates, have the need for bleeding-edge hardware, and I only need pretty and fast for watching CONTENT...
I get mostly EVERYTHING I want out of computing from a 14 year old ThinkPad... :P My Raspberry Pi's ALMOST have enough horsepower...
I recently was thnking of building a new screamer of a linux box... but I couldn't come up with two instances where the power would benefit me. I'd rather have MORE project systems, and different artchitextures... like the C64, Apple stuff, DOS and older machines...
In context to the original discussion, I think this 'retro computing' [I don't mind the reference..] community is huge and growing right now.. and I suppose THATS who I was talking about getting over to BBSes... theres a ton of us out there - and remember, those over the pond weren't as big into BBSes in the old days as us stateside... so I assume theres a vast amount of people that still simply haven't experienced it.
Anyway, Paulie, GO FIND EM - and pull em to fsxNet! Lol.
I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a powerful new Linux system, but real the ONLY thing I would do with it, that I can't do now, is play Doom 2016 an Eternal.
Odd, back in the 90's I always wanted more power, better graphics, more RAM, better sound. I couldn't wait to move on from the Vic 20 to the Commodore 6 To upgrade from a 386 for more ram and better frame rates. I got into the h microcomputers late (1991-93), and for a shorter period of time, unfortunate
I didn't know until I was 12 that I actually did have an interest in computing, and by then it had pretty much passed, with the first two machine had already being way out of date when I got them. (They were from a garage sale, pretty cheap).
Just in the last few days, I've started to learn machine code for the Commod range, and written a small bouncing ball demo for the Vic 20 (even if just o the simulator). Earlier this year I get a couple of 486's I have working again, for the authentic 90's DOS experience. I've often used BBS's on the with a CRT screen.
Like you, I honestly would rather spend money getting a project or old syste running. I think at this point I would want a new VIC chip for my Vic 20 wh currenlty yields no image (but still seems to successfully load programs fro tape) than a new NVIDIA graphics card. Part of it is nostalgia, I am more interested in the machines I used to have, than those I didn't, but the othe part is they are simply more interesting. They are complete systems, which can control completely and understand, inside and out. They work at an understandble scale, there is no equivalent today. Also, it was true minimalism, not a "fake" minimalism, that some websites seem to create. Because with modern machines, you are just dealing with abstractions on abstractions, and are locked out of the hardware, they aren't interesting. Having just the power you need to get the task done makes things simpler and more pleasurable than having complicated, overpowered, overcomplicated solutions.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Have you seen that build your own PET kit shown on 8-bit Guy? It
inspires me to get my old PET running so I can sell it
Starman wrote to Baguette <=-too
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Baguette to Starman on Thu Sep 03 2020 01:04:00
I'm personally not too fond of the tildeverse, they come across as trying
hard to make something from 2014 look likemu
it's from 1994. Then again, I have a Neocities site, so I can't really say
ch.
Some parts are definitely into (ironically? IDK) a weird pseudo-retro
"a e s t h e t i c", sometimes to the point where the medium becomes
the message. And some of the users are hysterically bad about
professing to reject the clutteredness, the complexity, the fragmented walled gardens of the modern web--and then jumping head-first into
every terrible faddish service like Mastodon.
cmccabe at SDF wrote a lengthy paper about public-access *nix systems a few years ago, though I can't immediately find the full version on
their website anymore. I vaguely recall them describing the difference between places like SDF or Grex and the tildeverse as the former being people who want to form/participate in a community and just happen to
be using old-fashioned, text-based means to do so... and the latter
being sometimes more interested in the technology than the community. Probably not too far off the mark, in my limited experience with the various text-centric corners of the 'net.
But the denizens of the tildeverse are (mostly) young and (mostly) very intelligent, and they like the command line and trying to socialize via the written word. If nothing else, I think that makes 'em prime
recruits for the BBS world, lol.
I think they're a weird and unintended consequence of everybody accessing the web with a smartphone or tablet, and a consequent reluctance to type anything lengthy. It's too laborious to type out four paragraphs on a phone; much, *much* easier to just make a rambling 15-minute video. Never mind that you're wasting 13 minutes of everyone's life. (Plus however long the inevitable unskippable ads peppered in last...)
On 09-03-20 11:09, Starman wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The rest of the world pisses me off, with people being so addicted to video,
and I hate instructional video with a passion, so hard to work with
when learning something
hand on.
I think they're a weird and unintended consequence of everybody
accessing the web with a smartphone or tablet, and a consequent
reluctance to type anything lengthy. It's too laborious to type out
four paragraphs on a phone; much, *much* easier to just make a rambling 15-minute video. Never mind that you're wasting 13 minutes of
everyone's life. (Plus however long the inevitable unskippable ads peppered in last...)
On 09-03-20 13:09, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I was watching an LGR youtube video where he went to a place that would recycl e e-waste, and they would set aside x86 and early pentiums for vintage computing folks. The owner of the business palced a limited winodw of opportunity to pick up early Pentium systems due the amount
of gold involved in motherboards and CPU's from that era. They get
more money per pound selling 90's era boards.
On 09-04-20 10:45, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Instructional videos are good when you need to SEE what is being done,
but so many are just people reading out text, and utterly pointless.
I like the simplicity and efficiency of BBSs. No waiting for laggy web pages to load, just flip through messages in an offline reader. :)
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised.
Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
The BASIC that came with it did suck a bit. Even back when I had one,
I wondered how the hell this machine had such great graphics and sound, and no good way to do it in BASIC. It did seem like a bit of a joke,
especially since I had previously had a VZ200, an older machine with rubber keys, where you could do graphics and sound (albeit simple) in BASIC.
I guess you could PEEK and POKE your way, but it was awkward, and I
didn't have any more information than how to do sprites. The only
other book I had used machine language routines.
The disk drive was also a bit odd, but the reason was that the disk
drive itself was its own computer with its own CPU and RAM. You were initiating a command for the disk drive to run. This freed the CPU.
In fact, you could have a disk drive to disk drive operation like a
copy continue even after you switched the C64 off!
I won't say no to power! But there are so many things you could "just do", that you can't anymore. Draw a pixel to the screen easily,
install an OS or copy it (Linux is OK here, but Windows??), even on a Windows default install, just write a simple program. I've had
troubles getting a binary which works on one Windows 10 machine, to
work on another, or a Linux binary to work on a different distro. Then they create Snap and Flatpak to try and fix this, and yuk, yuk, yuk.
On 09-03-20 01:04, Baguette wrote to Starman <=-
I mean, personally, I'm only 18. Got into BBSes when I was about 16.
Still not that great at using them. I'm personally not too fond of the tildeverse, they come across as trying too hard to make something from 2014 look like it's from 1994. Then again, I have a Neocities site, so
I can't really say much.
On 09-03-20 14:46, Arelor wrote to Starman <=-
I think videos are popular because people does not want to read. As
simple as that.
You bring a board game to the party and nobody wants to read the
manual. They want you to explain the game. Fine. But when you are
planing some lenghty complex activity that requires some knowledge, NOBODY will read the manual at home. They will arrive to the event and expect you to explain. This is specially true if having to explain
wastes 30 minutes of the event.
On 09-03-20 19:36, Nightfox wrote to Starman <=-
But often you'd probably have to do some video editing to make it flow better. You might have parts where you'd stumble over some words, or
you might want to include a screen capture from a computer or other
device in part of the video, etc.. In some cases I'm not sure it's
really easier than writing something up.
The real retro equipment is now hard to find, expensive. I have some (most of an XT, a couple of 486s, a broken Vic 20 which is probably repairable and some C64's (one or two faulty, datasette, 1571 disk drive), but important bits and pieces are missing.
I'd love to see NEW "retro equipment". Not like the THE64, or the mini NES, which are running simulations, but actual new machines, with very modest CPU/RAM, basic graphics and IO, a keyboard maybe built in, which would work just like those old machines. It would be good if they brought the C64 and peripherals back into production (albeit with minor modifications to make it workable today), or even if a new true 8-bit home computer style machine was created, with a built in OS ROM, and video and sound chip.
We've seen a bit of a revival in retro-computing. From what I've read, it was a lot cheaper to purchase original equipment a decade ago. For instance, compact Macs were often sold between 25-50 dollars, now they can go for over 600 dollars. I've been looking for an Apple // in the UK for a
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Tue Sep 01 2020 09:56:00
like to tinker on a 486, who run mTCP and into DOS. It would be the peop programming on a system with memory measured in kilobytes, rather than on with their interest. It captures that 80's and 90's aesthetic. What att portability.
There's a fair-sized userbase-in-potentia of these folks in places like the UCP networking.
There are also a few other places that embrace the "comfy" '90s text aesthet
Have you seen that build your own PET kit shown on 8-bit Guy? It inspires me to get my old PET running so I can sell it
Wow! I'm reading this https://hackaday.com/2019/03/02/the-8-bit-guy-builds-a-16-bit-computer/
He is right about the Raspberry Pi and many of the current projects. The Raspberry Pi is good at certain things, but it IS really just a Linux comput in a tiny form factor with more ability to interface with other hardware. Y can do cool things with it, such as connect it to a small LCD display throug the IO pins, but it lacks being the finished product, its own unique platfor
The C256 Feonix seems interesting too.
Starman wrote to Baguette <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Baguette to Starman on Thu Sep 03 2020 01:04:00
I'm personally not too fond of the tildeverse, they come across as tryingtoo
hard to make something from 2014 look likemu
it's from 1994. Then again, I have a Neocities site, so I can't really sa
ch.
Some parts are definitely into (ironically? IDK) a weird pseudo-retro "a e s t h e t i c", sometimes to the point where the medium becomes the message. And some of the users are hysterically bad about professing to reject the clutteredness, the complexity, the fragmented walled gardens of the modern web--and then jumping head-first into every terrible faddish service like Mastodon.
cmccabe at SDF wrote a lengthy paper about public-access *nix systems a few years ago, though I can't immediately find the full version on their website anymore. I vaguely recall them describing the difference between places like SDF or Grex and the tildeverse as the former being people who want to form/participate in a community and just happen to be using old-fashioned, text-based means to do so... and the latter being sometimes more interested in the technology than the community. Probably not too far off the mark, in my limited experience with the various text-centric corners of the 'net.
But the denizens of the tildeverse are (mostly) young and (mostly) very intelligent, and they like the command line and trying to socialize via the written word. If nothing else, I think that makes 'em prime recruits for the BBS world, lol.
It isn't a 90's web page without "Best viewed with Internet Exporer 3" butto and "This site is under construction" flashing text with gifs of witches hat and construction workers. Don't forget to join the web ring, have a link on Yahoo page and maybe play a MIDI.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-04-20 10:45, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Instructional videos are good when you need to SEE what is being done,
but so many are just people reading out text, and utterly pointless.
As an adjunct to good written documentation, I agree. But not
standalone, I have too many issues with being able to follow them for detailed stuff.
I like the simplicity and efficiency of BBSs. No waiting for laggy web pages to load, just flip through messages in an offline reader. :)
The people I think would be interested would want to know about a BBS,
and know how to connect, not just with Synchroterm, but with mTCP (I
wish it supported Zmodem), or with a Commodore 64 emulator, or even a
real C64 or Apple or whatever old sysstem. The other thing I think
would help is to promote BBS's that are customised and personalised.
Quite a few are just the default setup, the only difference is the name, with few to no files or specific areas, which is a bit of a bummer.
I prefer a real BBS style terminal program, which means either
something like SyncTerm, or a regular comms program with a mmodem emulator/serial to telnet gateway.
The BASIC that came with it did suck a bit. Even back when I had one,
I wondered how the hell this machine had such great graphics and sound, and no good way to do it in BASIC. It did seem like a bit of a joke,
Yes, Commodore were really good at graphics and sound hardware. The
VIC20 and C64 were quite good for the era in that respect, and the
Amiga was way ahead of its time in that regard.
especially since I had previously had a VZ200, an older machine with rubber keys, where you could do graphics and sound (albeit simple) in BASIC.
I did have use of a VZ200 for a while, programmed a bit on it, maxed
out its onboard RAM at one stage, though the expansion (all of 16k I think) helped there. :)
I guess you could PEEK and POKE your way, but it was awkward, and I
didn't have any more information than how to do sprites. The only
other book I had used machine language routines.
Yeah, I didn't really get into the graphics side.
The disk drive was also a bit odd, but the reason was that the disk
drive itself was its own computer with its own CPU and RAM. You were initiating a command for the disk drive to run. This freed the CPU.
In fact, you could have a disk drive to disk drive operation like a
copy continue even after you switched the C64 off!
That's definitely something different
I won't say no to power! But there are so many things you could "just do", that you can't anymore. Draw a pixel to the screen easily,
install an OS or copy it (Linux is OK here, but Windows??), even on a Windows default install, just write a simple program. I've had
troubles getting a binary which works on one Windows 10 machine, to
work on another, or a Linux binary to work on a different distro. Then they create Snap and Flatpak to try and fix this, and yuk, yuk, yuk.
Yes, there seems to be less portability at the binary level these days. Normally not a big issue on Linux, since the source is readily
available 99% of the time, but definitely could be on Windows.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Sep 03 2020 01:00 pm
The real retro equipment is now hard to find, expensive. I have some (most of an XT, a couple of 486s, a broken Vic 20 which is probably repairable and some C64's (one or two faulty, datasette, 1571 disk drive), but important bits and pieces are missing.
I'd love to see NEW "retro equipment". Not like the THE64, or the mini NES, which are running simulations, but actual new machines, with very modest CPU/RAM, basic graphics and IO, a keyboard maybe built in, which would work just like those old machines. It would be good if they brought the C64 and peripherals back into production (albeit with minor modifications to make it workable today), or even if a new true 8-bit home computer style machine was created, with a built in OS ROM, and video and sound chip.
We've seen a bit of a revival in retro-computing. From what I've read,
it was a lot cheaper to purchase original equipment a decade ago. For instance, compact Macs were often sold between 25-50 dollars, now they
can go for over 600 dollars. I've been looking for an Apple // in the
UK for a while now but the ones that are in a great condition are being offered at over 500 pounds... whereas a decade ago they'd have went for dirt cheap. I guess if you're good with electronics, you could purchase
a cheap unit for parts/repair and fix it up. Most of the BBS's I
mentioned are generally discussion boards for people helping each other and offering advice on how to revive and restore retro-machines. My dad has a ZX Spectrum which has never been used before and is still in its original box. I might try to get it online and onto a BBS at some point just for fun.
I see what you're saying in your previous post... I too like running
games and software on original time appropriate hardware. For some
reason, I don't think I'd enjoy playing an old game like Duke Nukem 3D
or DooM on a modern computer as much as I would on a 486 or P90. I
still love modern computing and watched the release of nVidia's jaw-droppingly powerful 3070/3080RTX series cards with anticipation;
it's just that modern computing seems to lack the heart and soul of the bygone 80's and 90's era.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Sep 04 2020 11:22 am
Have you seen that build your own PET kit shown on 8-bit Guy? It inspires me to get my old PET running so I can sell it
Wow! I'm reading this https://hackaday.com/2019/03/02/the-8-bit-guy-builds-a-16-bit-computer/
He is right about the Raspberry Pi and many of the current projects. The Raspberry Pi is good at certain things, but it IS really just a Linux comput in a tiny form factor with more ability to interface with other hardware. Y can do cool things with it, such as connect it to a small LCD display throug the IO pins, but it lacks being the finished product, its own unique platfor
The C256 Feonix seems interesting too.
While the Pi and other SBC's are fine to create emulators on, it's not quite the same as running the real hardware or replicas based on the original processor and machine specific ports and other features.
About 10-15 years ago I read about someone who wished he had an Altair
kit bac k when he was young in the 1970's however unbuilt kits on ebay were running for several thousand dollars. Through the help of a collector he was loaned a n un assembled Altair kit to scan the
original circuit boards to make brand new boards. While he was at it,
he cleaned up some of the sloppy traces and i ntegrated some of the
bodge wire fixes and create connectors for wiring harnesses to replace large amounts of loose direct connect wires. A modern switching power
was used to replace the big transformer and huge filter capacitors the original linear power supply had. This freed up a third of the case
and reduced the weight considerably.
I felt this was a tastefully done project, because any changes that
were made were done for reliability rather than performance. After
all, he wanted the system to be 100% compatible and use original cards
and peripherals. That was for the 8800 model. He planned to follow up with an Altair 6800 kit, but plan ned to use a modern CPU like and ARM
and just recreate the bus slots and interface ports. One of my
complaints about C-64 emulators was the lack of a properly formatted keyboard, or key to key compatibility on the emulator if a true C-64 keyboard was adapted for use.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Starman on Fri Sep 04 2020 12:18 pm
Starman wrote to Baguette <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Baguette to Starman on Thu Sep 03 2020 01:04:00
I'm personally not too fond of the tildeverse, they come across as tryingtoo
hard to make something from 2014 look likemu
it's from 1994. Then again, I have a Neocities site, so I can't really sa
ch.
Some parts are definitely into (ironically? IDK) a weird pseudo-retro "a e s t h e t i c", sometimes to the point where the medium becomes the message. And some of the users are hysterically bad about professing to reject the clutteredness, the complexity, the fragmented walled gardens of the modern web--and then jumping head-first into every terrible faddish service like Mastodon.
cmccabe at SDF wrote a lengthy paper about public-access *nix systems a few years ago, though I can't immediately find the full version on their website anymore. I vaguely recall them describing the difference between places like SDF or Grex and the tildeverse as the former being people who want to form/participate in a community and just happen to be using old-fashioned, text-based means to do so... and the latter being sometimes more interested in the technology than the community. Probably not too far off the mark, in my limited experience with the various text-centric corners of the 'net.
But the denizens of the tildeverse are (mostly) young and (mostly) very intelligent, and they like the command line and trying to socialize via the written word. If nothing else, I think that makes 'em prime recruits for the BBS world, lol.
It isn't a 90's web page without "Best viewed with Internet Exporer 3" butto and "This site is under construction" flashing text with gifs of witches hat and construction workers. Don't forget to join the web ring, have a link on Yahoo page and maybe play a MIDI.
Don't forget a link to Alta Vista
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'd love to see NEW "retro equipment". Not like the THE64, or the
mini NES, which are running simulations, but actual new machines, with very modest CPU/RAM, basic graphics and IO, a keyboard maybe built in, which would work just like those old machines.
Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-
Me too. I didn't know this "tildeverse" existed! Gonna be
checking those sites out further when I get some 'spare' time.
Googled it, definitely likely to be things of interest there. :)
Yes, Commodore were really good at graphics and sound hardware. The VIC20 and C64 were quite good for the era in that respect, and the Amiga was way ahead of its time in that regard.
By "compact Mac", do you mean the Mac Mini?
Nightfox
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Sep 04 2020 11:22 am
Have you seen that build your own PET kit shown on 8-bit Guy? It inspires me to get my old PET running so I can sell it
Wow! I'm reading this https://hackaday.com/2019/03/02/the-8-bit-guy-builds-a-16-bit-computer/
He is right about the Raspberry Pi and many of the current projects. The Raspberry Pi is good at certain things, but it IS really just a Linux com in a tiny form factor with more ability to interface with other hardware. can do cool things with it, such as connect it to a small LCD display thr the IO pins, but it lacks being the finished product, its own unique plat
The C256 Feonix seems interesting too.
While the Pi and other SBC's are fine to create emulators on, it's not quite the same as running the real hardware or replicas based on the original processor and machine specific ports and other features.
About 10-15 years ago I read about someone who wished he had an Altair kit bac k when he was young in the 1970's however unbuilt kits on ebay were running for several thousand dollars. Through the help of a collector he was loaned a n un assembled Altair kit to scan the original circuit boards to make brand new boards. While he was at it, he cleaned up some of the sloppy traces and i ntegrated some of the bodge wire fixes and create connectors for wiring harnesses to replace large amounts of loose direct connect wires. A modern switching power was used to replace the big transformer and huge filter capacitors the original linear power supply had. This freed up a third of the case and reduced the weight considerably.
I felt this was a tastefully done project, because any changes that were made were done for reliability rather than performance. After all, he wanted the system to be 100% compatible and use original cards and peripherals. That was for the 8800 model. He planned to follow up with an Altair 6800 kit, but plan ned to use a modern CPU like and ARM and just recreate the bus slots and interface ports. One of my complaints about C-64 emulators was the lack of a properly formatted keyboard, or key to key compatibility on the emulator if a true C-64 keyboard was adapted for use.
There is THEC64, which produced a half size, and I think a full size replica with a replica keyboard. It looks very close to the original. It is in actually a simulator, it probably runs VICE (ie, no true 6502, SID). I want to get one, but they are out of stock in Australia. The half size one is available, but the keyboard would be too small.
https://retrogames.biz/thec64
I've got the NES equivalent. A box that looks like a NES (but smaller), wit replica gamepads, but again, its really running an emulator. The kids love though.
I agree that if something is to be resurrected, it can be different, if tastefully done. For example, if the C64 was brought back, I wouldn't mind some of the keys separated out (ie, all 8 separate function keys, four prope places cursor keys, maybe slight change in spacing of the keys. It is more important to me that the underlying chips are the real-deal, rather than an emulation. I would NOT want the brick power supplies which apparently were unreliable.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Fri Sep 04 2020 09:25 pm
Yes, Commodore were really good at graphics and sound hardware. The VIC2 and C64 were quite good for the era in that respect, and the Amiga was wa ahead of its time in that regard.
I find it odd that the Amiga 500 has the same Motorola 68000 CPU as the old compact Macintosh line. My Mac is an '84 model upgraded to a Plus so it has exact same spec as the Amiga but the games are a full generation behind.
On the A500 you could play incredible titles (for the time) such as Street Fighter II, Road Rash, Flashback, Shadow of the Beast, Monkey Island, Cannon Fodder, Speedball... etc, whereas on the compact Macs you could only play VE basic looking games such as Shufflepuck, Oregon Trail, Dark Castle, etc... which all looked quite hideous. I guess Apple were never good at making gami machines.
but frankly, Vice looks more AUTHENTIC than the real C64! If I had an older TV, it would look OK. But then, to use the disk drive, I need disks, and disks that won't fail, won't shed
magnetic coating onto the drive heads which ruin disks, and subsequent disks you put in this. I've been burned by this. Cassettes, they are hard to get. New disks are hard to get.
On 09-05-20 21:08, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I use SyncTerm myself, or if need be, zssh or ztelnet. It's more the
fact that they can still be accessible on older systems.
Aside from the poor programming abilities. I'm learning 6502 assembly
at the moment, just for kicks. I always wanted to do it when I had the machines, but didn't know how, or had the software.
Do you live in Australia by any chance? Was it the Dick Smith branded machine?
I find Linux interoperability not that great, even at the source level.
Maybe my standards are too high. The problem is different distros setting things up different ways. I've written software which will
work on on platform, only to find it won't compile on another. Or had
to hand amend autoconf config files because its expecting a header in
one place, which is somewhere else.
On 09-03-20 07:20, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I loved community systems like that back in the day. I was on Wetware
Diversions, an old UNIX box with a busy userspace and UUCP networking
before anyone else around me had email, and later as the internet
became visible you'd see university group houses running some kind of
UNIX with communal file storage, email, web spaces, etc.
On 09-05-20 10:15, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
On the A500 you could play incredible titles (for the time) such as
Street Fighter II, Road Rash, Flashback, Shadow of the Beast, Monkey Island, Cannon Fodder, Speedball... etc, whereas on the compact Macs
you could only play VERY basic looking games such as Shufflepuck,
Oregon Trail, Dark Castle, etc... which all looked quite hideous. I
guess Apple were never good at making gaming machines.
On 09-05-20 00:13, Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
While the Pi and other SBC's are fine to create emulators on, it's not quite the same as running the real hardware or replicas based on the original processor and machine specific ports and other features.
About 10-15 years ago I read about someone who wished he had an Altair
kit bac k when he was young in the 1970's however unbuilt kits on ebay were running for several thousand dollars. Through the help of a collector he was loaned a n un assembled Altair kit to scan the
original circuit boards to make brand new boards. While he was at it,
he cleaned up some of the sloppy traces and i ntegrated some of the
bodge wire fixes and create connectors for wiring harnesses to replace large amounts of loose direct connect wires. A modern switching power
was used to replace the big transformer and huge filter capacitors the original linear power supply had. This freed up a third of the case
and reduced the weight considerably.
and peripherals. That was for the 8800 model. He planned to follow up with an Altair 6800 kit, but plan ned to use a modern CPU like and ARM
and just recreate the bus slots and interface ports. One of my
complaints about C-64 emulators was the lack of a properly formatted keyboard, or key to key compatibility on the emulator if a true C-64 keyboard was adapted for use.
On the A500 you could play incredible titles (for the time) such as Street Fighter II, Road Rash, Flashback, Shadow of the Beast, Monkey Island, Cannon Fodder, Speedball... etc, whereas on the compact Macs you could only play VERY basic looking games such as Shufflepuck, Oregon Trail, Dark Castle, etc... which all looked quite hideous. I guess Apple were never good at making gaming machines.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'd love to see NEW "retro equipment". Not like the THE64, or the
mini NES, which are running simulations, but actual new machines, with very modest CPU/RAM, basic graphics and IO, a keyboard maybe built in, which would work just like those old machines.
Some guy announced Collapse OS, if memory serves it was like CP/M,
but could run on salvaged commodity CPUs, as if in a future dystopia
you could pull the CPU out of a smart appliance and cobble together a
computer out of scavenged parts.
Seemed intriguing, I'd love a small (Canon CAT-sized desktop
computer with an IP stack running a CLI.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Sat Sep 05 2020 10:00 pm
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Sep 04 2020 11:22 am
Have you seen that build your own PET kit shown on 8-bit Guy? It inspires me to get my old PET running so I can sell it
Wow! I'm reading this https://hackaday.com/2019/03/02/the-8-bit-guy-builds-a-16-bit-computer/
He is right about the Raspberry Pi and many of the current projects. The Raspberry Pi is good at certain things, but it IS really just a Linux com in a tiny form factor with more ability to interface with other hardware. can do cool things with it, such as connect it to a small LCD display thr the IO pins, but it lacks being the finished product, its own unique plat
The C256 Feonix seems interesting too.
While the Pi and other SBC's are fine to create emulators on, it's not quite the same as running the real hardware or replicas based on the original processor and machine specific ports and other features.
About 10-15 years ago I read about someone who wished he had an Altair kit bac k when he was young in the 1970's however unbuilt kits on ebay were running for several thousand dollars. Through the help of a collector he was loaned a n un assembled Altair kit to scan the original circuit boards to make brand new boards. While he was at it, he cleaned up some of the sloppy traces and i ntegrated some of the bodge wire fixes and create connectors for wiring harnesses to replace large amounts of loose direct connect wires. A modern switching power was used to replace the big transformer and huge filter capacitors the original linear power supply had. This freed up a third of the case and reduced the weight considerably.
I felt this was a tastefully done project, because any changes that were made were done for reliability rather than performance. After all, he wanted the system to be 100% compatible and use original cards and peripherals. That was for the 8800 model. He planned to follow up with an Altair 6800 kit, but plan ned to use a modern CPU like and ARM and just recreate the bus slots and interface ports. One of my complaints about C-64 emulators was the lack of a properly formatted keyboard, or key to key compatibility on the emulator if a true C-64 keyboard was adapted for use.
There is THEC64, which produced a half size, and I think a full size replica with a replica keyboard. It looks very close to the original. It is in actually a simulator, it probably runs VICE (ie, no true 6502, SID). I want to get one, but they are out of stock in Australia. The half size one is available, but the keyboard would be too small.
https://retrogames.biz/thec64
I've got the NES equivalent. A box that looks like a NES (but smaller), wit replica gamepads, but again, its really running an emulator. The kids love though.
I agree that if something is to be resurrected, it can be different, if tastefully done. For example, if the C64 was brought back, I wouldn't mind some of the keys separated out (ie, all 8 separate function keys, four prope places cursor keys, maybe slight change in spacing of the keys. It is more important to me that the underlying chips are the real-deal, rather than an emulation. I would NOT want the brick power supplies which apparently were unreliable.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
There are great aftrmarket power supplies out there. There's even an inline protection device for the C64 to protect the pc if the brick is failing.
I would like to get my hands on the batch of THEC64 intended for US importation. Yeah, they're a year late due to Covid, but I'm patient.
Starman wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Sep 05 2020 21:47:00
but frankly, Vice looks more AUTHENTIC than the real C64! If I had an older
TV, it would look OK. But then, to use the disk drive, I need disks,
and disks that won't fail, won't shed
magnetic coating onto the drive heads which ruin disks, and subsequent disks
you put in this. I've been burned by this. Cassettes, they are hard
to get. New disks are hard to get.
I have a VIC-20 and a pair of Datasettes, one cleaned and overhauled
and the other rebuilt with new belts and everything. Blank cassettes
are still being made, and new sealed ones from the mid 2010s show up frequently on eBay and so on, for a dollar or two per tape. I've got
five or six that I use, and about twenty more spare, just in case.
They're slow, but much safer and more reliable to use than floppies.
I have a couple of ZIP drives that I use now and then (though not, obviously, with the Commodore). There are still a lot of NOS discs out there, cheap, and I haven't had any problems, knock on wood. But they benefit from being probably a decade newer than any 5.25" floppies, and having an intrinsic error-correction system. Well, the 100MB and 250MB discs are cheap and plentiful, anyway. Almost never see the larger (600MB?) ones.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-05-20 21:08, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I use SyncTerm myself, or if need be, zssh or ztelnet. It's more the
fact that they can still be accessible on older systems.
Yeah, I was just saying if I wanted to use an older machine, I'd still rather use a comms program rather than an Internet oriented telnet
client, so I had access to BBS appropriates terminal emulation (e.g. CP-437 ANSI). Using serial on the retro machine end is usually the
best way to achieve this, since comms programs are designed for serial comms.
I also find DOS based IP to be a mishmash. Back in the day, I had to
use a few different IP stacks, because different applications used different stacks. The only common denominator was a packet driver for network cards, which could talk to the card or be a shim to another low level driver, such as ODI (Netware) or NDIS (Microsoft).
Aside from the poor programming abilities. I'm learning 6502 assembly
at the moment, just for kicks. I always wanted to do it when I had the machines, but didn't know how, or had the software.
Cool. I never learnt 6502. I've done a bit of 8086, 6809 and PIC assembler over the years. :) I quite liked the 6809, it was a nice
chip to program at that level. 8086 had those pesky segment registers
and as we all know, a weird instruction set, but I did get reasonably proficient at it. :)
Do you live in Australia by any chance? Was it the Dick Smith branded machine?
Yep, that's the one. Disk Smith did push the machine heavily here.
Very basic, but quite capable for what it was, both in BASIC and also machine code, if you poked the instructions into the right locations
and kicked it off. :)
I find Linux interoperability not that great, even at the source level.
Maybe my standards are too high. The problem is different distros setting things up different ways. I've written software which will
work on on platform, only to find it won't compile on another. Or had
to hand amend autoconf config files because its expecting a header in
one place, which is somewhere else.
I've only had major issues when software was many years older or newer than the compiler, otherwise I've generally been able to grab some
source and compile it fine. Sure, occasionally, a minor tweak to find
a stray header file, but as little as possible.
There are great aftrmarket power supplies out there. There's even an inline protection device for the C64 to protect the pc if the brick is failing.
I would like to get my hands on the batch of THEC64 intended for US importation. Yeah, they're a year late due to Covid, but I'm patient.
Cool, you can get power supplies. Thats great, I might get one.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I think these prices are in a bubble, and that this interest will wane, as they always do. About 20 or so years ago, I was buying Commodore 64's, working, for $2, a 1571 disk drive for less than $10, a vic 20 for a few dollars, a few dollars for a couple of datasettes. I've got maybe 4 or 5 C64's, two of which don't work. Well, one does, but it has only 29 bytes RAM free. It's quite amusing to enter a two line basic program and then run out of memory. Now, these items are over a hundred, EACH. The problem is, authentic equipment is great, but lets say you hook your C64 to an LCD TV. It doesn't look right. I tried one out, and the TV can't display the pixels from the composite input quite right. Maybe I need to adjust a few things, but frankly, Vice looks more AUTHENTIC than the real C64! If I had an older TV, it would look OK. But then, to use the disk drive, I need disks, and disks that won't fail, won't shed magnetic coating onto the drive heads which ruin disks, and subsequent disks you put in this. I've been burned by this. Cassettes, they are hard to get. New disks are hard to get. New power supplies, replacement chips, again, hard to get.
I was happy I kept these things, as they are a good investment, and maybe I could get lots of $$$$ selling them, but I can't be sure there is a big enough market. If I did get the money, I might regret selling them, maybe. But is it worth keeping them, knowing that in the future, they will likely have faults beyond repair. Where the simulators/emulators will be better?
As for DOS games, I actually prefer the source ports. eDuke3d looks great, and because it supports ALSA, I can use native midi, so that means good soundfonts for MIDI music, where it sounds better than in DOS. Same for Doom, PRBOOM+ allows high resolution, but true-to-source graphics, and again, much better native MIDI.
The Atari ST machines also had a Motorola 68000 CPU, and in some cases benchmarked faster than a Mac. When Tramiel left CBM and went to Atari, I think they were definitely on track to make business grade hardware, however the history of Atari and gaming turned away several investors. It was sort of like that V-10 supercar that Lexus made that competed and in some situatios surpassed the performance of a Ferrari and Lamborghini. When people hear Lexus, they don't think of super cars. They think of Toyotas with better interiors.
Talking to the wrong person, but yeah the Mac was more oriented towards business and productivity, and found its home among desktop publishers at that time. The Amiga did find popularity among gamers, hackers and also video/TV proguction.
The Amiga had lots of hardware on-board to help with graphics and sound.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Sep 05 2020 09:47 pm
I think these prices are in a bubble, and that this interest will wane, as they always do. About 20 or so years ago, I was buying Commodore 64's, working, for $2, a 1571 disk drive for less than $10, a vic 20 for a few dollars, a few dollars for a couple of datasettes. I've got maybe 4 or 5 C64's, two of which don't work. Well, one does, but it has only 29 bytes RAM free. It's quite amusing to enter a two line basic program and then run out of memory. Now, these items are over a hundred, EACH. The problem is, authentic equipment is great, but lets say you hook your C64 to an LCD TV. It doesn't look right. I tried one out, and the TV can't display the pixels from the composite input quite right. Maybe I need to adjust a few things, but frankly, Vice looks more AUTHENTIC than the real C64! If I had an older TV, it would look OK. But then, to use the disk drive, I need disks, and disks that won't fail, won't shed magnetic coating onto the drive heads which ruin disks, and subsequent disks you put in this. I've been burned by this. Cassettes, they are hard to get. New disks are hard to get. New power supplies, replacement chips, again, hard to get.
I was happy I kept these things, as they are a good investment, and maybe I could get lots of $$$$ selling them, but I can't be sure there is a big enough market. If I did get the money, I might regret selling them, maybe. But is it worth keeping them, knowing that in the future, they will likely have faults beyond repair. Where the simulators/emulators will be better?
As for DOS games, I actually prefer the source ports. eDuke3d looks great, and because it supports ALSA, I can use native midi, so that means good soundfonts for MIDI music, where it sounds better than in DOS. Same for Doom, PRBOOM+ allows high resolution, but true-to-source graphics, and again, much better native MIDI.
We probably are at the peak of the vintage computer bubble... I don't
have too much experience in pricing older computers but the consensus seems to be that we're at the peak of the bubble. I'd consider selling
a few C64's if I were you given that it's unlikely they'll go for much more in the future. I reckon the supply of retro machines must be substantially down in the last decade too as a huge number will have
made it to rubbish tips or salvaged for parts. A lot of original owners lacked any kind of knowledge on how to store redundant machines so left them for decades in the loft with PRAM or CMOS batteries still within causing severe corrosion. I also presume a lot of people have thrown
away their perfectly good machines due to minor issues preventing them from starting up, such as burst capacitors and cracked solder. Many of
the surviving machines have made it into the collections of vintage computer enthusiasts and are not for sale.
You should consider getting a CRT TV/monitor so you can see your C64's operate in full glory. I know there's a lot of emulator systems and programmes out there built from modern technology, but it's not the
same. Those who are happy to run emulators such as Mac v Mini, VICE, WinUAE, etc... are more interested in the software rather than the hardware. For me, I need the genuine authentic article. That doesn't
mean I am not a fan of sleeper systems, modern components housed in a vintage computer case... I love those projects! I guess it's the same
with games. I see a lot of superior remasters of older games running on
a higher resolution with better textures & sound effects, but I prefer playing on the original hardware even if it's a downgraded experience.
I suppose I am more intereted in the hardware rather than the software.
On 09-06-20 11:54, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I only use it because I'm not sure how else to access a telnet BBS, but yeah, something like Telix works better.
6502 is very basic, which makes it easy to memorise. Only having one register you can add and subtract to, three overall, and no multiply or divide does get limiting.
Segmentation on the 8086 didn't bother me too much. A lot of the time, with small programs, you didn't need to change them. What was annoying
was ASSUME directives, and wondering how the assembler would calculate
the offset of your labels.
Do you live in Australia by any chance? Was it the Dick Smith branded machine?
I didn't see any of the advertising. The VZ 200 came out well before I started school, in fact most of the early microcomputers came out when
I was a bit too young, unfortunately. I was born 5-10 years too late.
The one I had, I got in January 1991. My parents got from a garage
sale, instead of the Atari 1040STE.
As you could imagine, when I saw "Hoppy", the graphics an sound were dissapointing compared to other machines, but that soon faded when I realised I could write programs for it.
I've only had major issues when software was many years older or newer than the compiler, otherwise I've generally been able to grab some
source and compile it fine. Sure, occasionally, a minor tweak to find
a stray header file, but as little as possible.
Maybe my standards are to high then!
On 09-06-20 16:44, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Quite funny that Macs being useless at gaming is still true to this
day. Despite having the same specs the Amiga, and Atari ST, were viewed
as budget systems that were way more accessible than Apple systems. For
instance, a compact Macintosh would cost you 2600 USD whereas an A500 would only cost 600 USD. I reckon Apple were even worse with their
premium pricing back then than they are now.
On 09-06-20 16:35, Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
I think of all the 68K machines, the Macintosh line is the weakest in terms of performance. I have a FloppyEMU which allows me to download
any game for the system, but even then, I haven't the desire due to how dull and listless they are. For me, this machine is exclusively for BBSing... nothing else. I would like to get my hands on an Amiga 500
(or an Atari ST, as you mentioned) as I'd get a lot more use out of
those machines; even if they don't look as aesthetic on my desk.
On 09-06-20 16:48, Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
The Amiga had lots of hardware on-board to help with graphics and sound.
Makes sense that there must have been some kind of onboard graphics accelerator as the visuals were at least a generation ahead!
I did have a CRT TV sitting in the garage for years, that I got rid of a few years ago. Silly me! I didn't think of keeping it for the C64. Time to get a replacement, just have to convince the wife. Emulators (or simulators as they should be called), are in my opinion, are as good as the real thing for playing Commodore 64 games and running software. I just have some minor timing issues, but I think its my Linux kernel config.
But I do want to use the real hardware for my own programs, moreso than to run existing ones. For existing games, Vice is fine, but for my own ones, I prefer to see the actual hardware do things, not see a simulation. Basically, I'm more interested in the hardware for programming it, than for the game experience.
I may sell, but the problem is I only have the breadboxes, not the joysticks, power supplies, cables, so the asking price is less. I might still get a pretty penny, and someone will be able to use it, instead of it just sitting in storage. Maybe the prices won't fall. No doubt many were just thrown out, which is a real shame. Such an awful waste. The way we just throw out "obsolete" technology, and replace, replace, replace, is a truly detestable aspect of our society. A horrendous, criminal squandering of resources. I've worked at places where they will just bin heaps of working monitors, computers and laptops, straight into hard rubbish. Not even to be recycled or disposed of properly.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Sep 05 2020 09:47 pm
I think these prices are in a bubble, and that this interest will wane, a they always do. About 20 or so years ago, I was buying Commodore 64's, working, for $2, a 1571 disk drive for less than $10, a vic 20 for a few dollars, a few dollars for a couple of datasettes. I've got maybe 4 or 5 C64's, two of which don't work. Well, one does, but it has only 29 bytes RAM free. It's quite amusing to enter a two line basic program and then out of memory. Now, these items are over a hundred, EACH. The problem i authentic equipment is great, but lets say you hook your C64 to an LCD TV It doesn't look right. I tried one out, and the TV can't display the pix from the composite input quite right. Maybe I need to adjust a few thing but frankly, Vice looks more AUTHENTIC than the real C64! If I had an ol TV, it would look OK. But then, to use the disk drive, I need disks, and disks that won't fail, won't shed magnetic coating onto the drive heads which ruin disks, and subsequent disks you put in this. I've been burned this. Cassettes, they are hard to get. New disks are hard to get. New power supplies, replacement chips, again, hard to get.
I was happy I kept these things, as they are a good investment, and maybe could get lots of $$$$ selling them, but I can't be sure there is a big enough market. If I did get the money, I might regret selling them, mayb But is it worth keeping them, knowing that in the future, they will likel have faults beyond repair. Where the simulators/emulators will be better
As for DOS games, I actually prefer the source ports. eDuke3d looks grea and because it supports ALSA, I can use native midi, so that means good soundfonts for MIDI music, where it sounds better than in DOS. Same for Doom, PRBOOM+ allows high resolution, but true-to-source graphics, and again, much better native MIDI.
We probably are at the peak of the vintage computer bubble... I don't have t much experience in pricing older computers but the consensus seems to be tha we're at the peak of the bubble. I'd consider selling a few C64's if I were given that it's unlikely they'll go for much more in the future. I reckon th supply of retro machines must be substantially down in the last decade too a huge number will have made it to rubbish tips or salvaged for parts. A lot o original owners lacked any kind of knowledge on how to store redundant machi so left them for decades in the loft with PRAM or CMOS batteries still withi causing severe corrosion. I also presume a lot of people have thrown away th perfectly good machines due to minor issues preventing them from starting up such as burst capacitors and cracked solder. Many of the surviving machines have made it into the collections of vintage computer enthusiasts and are no for sale.
You should consider getting a CRT TV/monitor so you can see your C64's opera in full glory. I know there's a lot of emulator systems and programmes out there built from modern technology, but it's not the same. Those who are hap to run emulators such as Mac v Mini, VICE, WinUAE, etc... are more intereste in the software rather than the hardware. For me, I need the genuine authent article. That doesn't mean I am not a fan of sleeper systems, modern compone housed in a vintage computer case... I love those projects! I guess it's the same with games. I see a lot of superior remasters of older games running on higher resolution with better textures & sound effects, but I prefer playing the original hardware even if it's a downgraded experience. I suppose I am m intereted in the hardware rather than the software.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Sep 05 2020 12:41 pm
The Atari ST machines also had a Motorola 68000 CPU, and in some cases benchmarked faster than a Mac. When Tramiel left CBM and went to Atari, think they were definitely on track to make business grade hardware, howe the history of Atari and gaming turned away several investors. It was so of like that V-10 supercar that Lexus made that competed and in some situatios surpassed the performance of a Ferrari and Lamborghini. When people hear Lexus, they don't think of super cars. They think of Toyotas with better interiors.
I think of all the 68K machines, the Macintosh line is the weakest in terms performance. I have a FloppyEMU which allows me to download any game for the system, but even then, I haven't the desire due to how dull and listless the are. For me, this machine is exclusively for BBSing... nothing else. I would like to get my hands on an Amiga 500 (or an Atari ST, as you mentioned) as I get a lot more use out of those machines; even if they don't look as aesthet on my desk.
I remember seeing that supercar on Top Gear years ago. I thought it odd that manufacturer for luxury business-class vehicles would produce such a thing. least it looked like a supercar!
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Sun Sep 06 2020 08:48 am
Talking to the wrong person, but yeah the Mac was more oriented towards business and productivity, and found its home among desktop publishers at that time. The Amiga did find popularity among gamers, hackers and also video/TV proguction.
Quite funny that Macs being useless at gaming is still true to this day. Despite having the same specs the Amiga, and Atari ST, were viewed as budget systems that were way more accessible than Apple systems. For instance, a compact Macintosh would cost you 2600 USD whereas an A500 would only cost 60 USD. I reckon Apple were even worse with their premium pricing back then tha they are now.
I have fond memories of using an Amiga 2000 with the 80286 card installed. i an office. It was the only Amiga, and no one knew how to drive it. I got t hang of it quickly. <ost of my work was done on in DOS on the PC card, but
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
The Amiga had lots of hardware on-board to help with graphics and sound.
Makes sense that there must have been some kind of onboard graphics accelerator as the visuals were at least a generation ahead!
On 09-07-20 10:45, HusTler wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I only went as far as the A500. The 2000 was way out of my price
range. If the gameplay was anything like the A500 I'm sure it was
great. I remember being frustrated with all the Personal Computing choices. "The Mac is the best. No no Amiga kicks ass. No you need an
IBM if you want to run business applications." ACK!!! lol
On 09-07-20 07:40, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Andeddu <=-
Amiga owners were insuperable back in the day - I had a couple on the
board, and boy could they rant about their systems - almost as much
as the people running OS/2...
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-06-20 11:54, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I only use it because I'm not sure how else to access a telnet BBS, but yeah, something like Telix works better.
A serial to telnet gateway (hardware) and Telix? :)
6502 is very basic, which makes it easy to memorise. Only having one register you can add and subtract to, three overall, and no multiply or divide does get limiting.
Cool, well multiply can be done with repeated adding. Divide is
tricky, but well known. :) Simple processors can be a joy to program.
Segmentation on the 8086 didn't bother me too much. A lot of the time, with small programs, you didn't need to change them. What was annoying
That's true, and I generally didn't write anything big. I only ran
into issues when I did something that stored a lot of data. Was
actually coding it in TP3, which uses the tiny memory model (64kB
total, all segment registers same value). I ended up having to use pointer based structures to exceed the 64k limit. :)
But yes, my ASM programs were definitely small enough to all sit in one segment. :)
was ASSUME directives, and wondering how the assembler would calculate
the offset of your labels.
:)
Do you live in Australia by any chance? Was it the Dick Smith branded machine?
I didn't see any of the advertising. The VZ 200 came out well before I started school, in fact most of the early microcomputers came out when
I was a bit too young, unfortunately. I was born 5-10 years too late.
You're obviously a youngster. I was reading the DSE catalogue furing
my high school years (first half of the 70s) and drooling over the computers and ham radio gear (was still several years before I got my ticket though). Well, I did end up getting (for free too!) one of the radios I always wanted, the FT-736R, which came out at the end of the
80s. A friend gave me the radio, when he bought another one. Mine has
a power supply issue, but that doesn't affect me, because I run it off
DC. I've had it since around 2010, IIRC. I've since optioned it up
with modules and parts from eBay, and it's still in service today. :)
The one I had, I got in January 1991. My parents got from a garage
sale, instead of the Atari 1040STE.
As you could imagine, when I saw "Hoppy", the graphics an sound were dissapointing compared to other machines, but that soon faded when I realised I could write programs for it.
Yeah, the fun of the VZ200 for me was being able to write programs. :)
I've only had major issues when software was many years older or newer than the compiler, otherwise I've generally been able to grab some
source and compile it fine. Sure, occasionally, a minor tweak to find
a stray header file, but as little as possible.
Maybe my standards are to high then!
Maybe! :D
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Sep 07 2020 09:58 am
I did have a CRT TV sitting in the garage for years, that I got rid of a few years ago. Silly me! I didn't think of keeping it for the C64. Time to get a replacement, just have to convince the wife. Emulators (or simulators as they should be called), are in my opinion, are as good as the real thing for playing Commodore 64 games and running software. I just have some minor timing issues, but I think its my Linux kernel config.
But I do want to use the real hardware for my own programs, moreso than to run existing ones. For existing games, Vice is fine, but for my own ones, I prefer to see the actual hardware do things, not see a simulation. Basically, I'm more interested in the hardware for programming it, than for the game experience.
I may sell, but the problem is I only have the breadboxes, not the joysticks, power supplies, cables, so the asking price is less. I might still get a pretty penny, and someone will be able to use it, instead of it just sitting in storage. Maybe the prices won't fall. No doubt many were just thrown out, which is a real shame. Such an awful waste. The way we just throw out "obsolete" technology, and replace, replace, replace, is a truly detestable aspect of our society. A horrendous, criminal squandering of resources. I've worked at places where they will just bin heaps of working monitors, computers and laptops, straight into hard rubbish. Not even to be recycled or disposed of properly.
Ah, such as shame you got rid of your old CRT. The CRT televisions
aren't expensive at least, you should be able to pick up a decent one
on the cheap. I saw an Amiga 1200 with 30 boxed games on eBay for 350
USD which is a very reasonable price, then I looked for a Commodore
1084 monitor only to find they're going for around 200 USD! I only have
a small office space in my property so I can only have one vintage
machine displayed at any one time. I suppose I should keep my Macintosh here a while longer... I did say I'd only purchase one retro machine
every 1-2 years. Someone on Reddit (r/VintageApple) has posted a
complete Apple /// with Monitor /// along with accessories which he intends to sell after purchasing it cheap from an old business facing closure. It's so rare that I've only ever seen one other one for
sale... if he was in the UK and not the USA, I'd be the first to make a serious offer, I just couldn't risk such a fragile machine and monitor being delivered overseas.
I'd rather not think about all the systems, monitors, accessories,
etc... thrown away over the years by households who couldn't be
bothered selling or donating them. I think there is a genuine scarcity
of certain systems and accessories. For instance, external HDDs,
external floppy disc drives, printers, mice and keyboards are
exceedingly rare for compact Macs - a HDD can cost way more than the actual computer itself, and it's the same for floppy disc drives. I
guess a lot of these old accessories have just been thrown out in the trash resulting in a shortage.
Do you have a free desk area for your C64 and CRT TV once it's setup?
You should consider hooking it up to a Raspberry Pi (if you have one)
or directly to an RS-232 wireless serial modem for internet access. It would be a nice system to BBS on!
Yes, I think their premium is less, at least for computers. FoOr phones, that might be a different case.
I have fond memories of using an Amiga 2000 with the 80286 card installed. in an office. It was the only Amiga, and no one knew how to drive it. I got the hang of it quickly. <ost of my work was done on in DOS on the PC card, but I did learn a bit of the Amiga side as well, especially the command line (like I would in Linux years later). :)
I have two ideas about why Lexus made a super car. First to prove their engineering skills, and second to boost their reputation as a luxury car compa ny.
I wonder if the sum of the parts was equal to the product in the case of the Macintosh? How much markup existed bacause Steve Jobs could demand it?
Amiga owners were insuperable back in the day - I had a couple on the
board, and boy could they rant about their systems - almost as much
as the people running OS/2...
Spectrums, etc... being light years behind the Amiga in terms of raw graphical power. The Atari ST (albeit I've never seen one in action) appears to be a comparable system.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Sep 07 2020 09:12 am
I have two ideas about why Lexus made a super car. First to prove their engineering skills, and second to boost their reputation as a luxury car compa ny.
I'd agree. I saw a lot of car manufacturers flex their engineering muscles b in the 2000s producing vehicles that could compete with supercars, just beca they could. I've never owned a Lexus, but I hear even the standard ones can shift.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Sep 07 2020 09:15 am
I wonder if the sum of the parts was equal to the product in the case of Macintosh? How much markup existed bacause Steve Jobs could demand it?
Steve Jobs added a massive premium to the compact Macintosh line (128K & 512 back in 1984/85 before leaving to form his own company NeXT. A case and poin would be that the Apple IIgs (which looked like a desktop computer) was a superior machine to the compact all-in-one Macs and were hardware capped on release so that they would not cannibalise the flagship's sales. The IIgs wa technically superior computer which could be purchased at 1200 USD with a colour monitor, exactly half the price of a Macintosh which sported a 9" bla and white monochrome screen. Once Jobs left, Apple began selling compact Mac for the more reasonable price of 1500 USD.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Sep 07 2020 07:40 am
Amiga owners were insuperable back in the day - I had a couple on the
board, and boy could they rant about their systems - almost as much
as the people running OS/2...
Hahah, I can see why. If you were into cutting edge graphics, the Amiga appeared to be light years ahead of everything else. I didn't begin using computers as a child until the early 90s but I recall IBMs, Apples, Spectrum etc... being light years behind the Amiga in terms of raw graphical power. T Atari ST (albeit I've never seen one in action) appears to be a comparable system.
On 09-08-20 20:21, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm guessing I can use a Linux box and convert that into such a
gateway.
The multiplication part was easy to figure out. It was just
surprising, as the first architecture I got to know was Intel, and I didn't expect 6502 not to have MUL and DIV. It is an architecture at a human scale though, one an individual get understand. Compare that
with modern Intel.
I didn't move away from BASIC until I had a machine with 4M of RAM. So never been a problem for me. Having less RAM to use keeps you focused.
I don't consider myself a youngster, but I do feel I missed out a bit
with the introduction of this technology. Sure, you can argue we have
iProducts today, and so on and so on, but the spirit of discovery and control isn't there. You can run awesome apps, but you can't really
use the hardware. There is this sense of detachment, of using someone elses design, and of everything being hidden. It's like wanting to
cook, but all you have is this sleek black box that you put
pre-prepared ingredients, and you jockey the UI to get what you need,
or learn its own unique language and methods to bake a cake.
Maybe my standards are to high then!
Maybe! :D
I had a look through my /usr/local/src quickly, and yeah, most of that stuff I didn't have trouble with.
On 09-08-20 10:09, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Apple are responsible for breaking the 1000 USD celing with their
flagship phones. When I began purchasing iPhones in 2013 their
flagship, the iPhone 5S, was around 550 USD. This didn't change at all with their various flagships up until 2017 when they released the
iPhone X which was said to be priced at a ONE OFF 1000 USD. This was an
experimental price point and I recall Apple stating that their phones would become cheaper in 2018. The iPhone XS rolled out in 2018 with the base model at 999 USD confirming that Apple were satisfied with the
uptake of overpriced premium phones thereby normalising the unusually
high price point ever after.
They have, at least, made "budget" offering such as the iPhone XR in
2018 priced at 799 USD and the latest super cheap iPhone SE (2020) released at 419 USD. I have stuck with my trusty old iPhone 8 (2017) as it's still lightning fast for web browsing, YouTube, etc... I've no
idea where all the extra power in the new phones is going as the
software isn't very demanding.
On 09-08-20 10:18, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had to Google the Amiga 2000 because it's a machine I had never heard of. It seems to have the exact same stock specs as the little Amiga
500. I take it that it was more of an office computer due to the big
box case and IBM compatibility?
My only experience with an Amiga is with the 500. I never owned one but
my best friend as a kid had one in his room. I was pretty awestuck with the sheer power of the machine, mainly because my parents only had an Amstrad with a 286 (or possibly a 386) which was as slow as molasses.
The Amiga/Atari comparison gets even more strange when you stop and realize that a good chunk of the team that developed the Amiga were former Atari folks, and a good chunk of the team that developed the Atari ST were former Commodore engineers who moved over with Jack.
In essense if you boil it down, the Atari ST is the successor to the 8 bit Commodore systems, and the Amiga is the successor to the 8 bit Atari systems.
I'd agree. I saw a lot of car manufacturers flex their engineering muscles b in the 2000s producing vehicles that could compete with supercars, just beca they could. I've never owned a Lexus, but I hear even the standard ones can shift.
I was hoping to see that V-10 placed in a special edition Tundra, the way Ford was doing with their Lightning F-150.
I recall how Apple went toward the educational market aggresively, under the notion students will demand the same brand /style of pc they learned in school with. Heath/ Zenith had an educational supply store on the other side of the wall of the service department I worked in, then one day we heard it
was shutting down and what was left was being moved back to mail order sales.
Besides all the Heath books and basic electronics and educational books, they sold Apple computers along side ZDS computers. They sold the hell out of Apples and brought in a good income, however the forces above didn't like the idea of an in-house dealer not pushing our own product hard enough.
The SE actually looks like quite a decent phone at that price point.
The Atari ST even looks identical to the A500 (to the untrained eye). I have very little to no knowledge of Atari as the ST appeared shortly before I was even born and I never really came across any of their hardware. They there always known as a games publisher/developer to me.
There's an interesting 2 part (2 hour) YouTube documentary on Amiga's rise and fall called "Amiga Story" by Nostalgia Nerd that you've reminded me to watch. I just love learning about tech companies battling it out in the 80s.
On 09-10-20 00:43, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/AMSTRAD
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Wed Sep 09 2020 02:50 pm
The SE actually looks like quite a decent phone at that price point.
I'd say it's the best bang for buck in the current phone market. I
mean, it has the same innards as a 1000 USD+ iPhone 11 but at an affordable price. I'll probably pick one up in a few months.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Wed Sep 09 2020 02:50 pm
The SE actually looks like quite a decent phone at that price point.
I'd say it's the best bang for buck in the current phone market. I mean, it the same innards as a 1000 USD+ iPhone 11 but at an affordable price. I'll probably pick one up in a few months.
Re: Re: Young folks
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Sep 08 2020 11:08 pm
I'd agree. I saw a lot of car manufacturers flex their engineering muscles b in the 2000s producing vehicles that could compete with supercars, just beca they could. I've never owned a Lexus, but I hear even the standard ones can shift.
I was hoping to see that V-10 placed in a special edition Tundra, the way Ford was doing with their Lightning F-150.
I had to Google those pickup trucks as those things don't really exist in th UK, unless you import them. The only pick ups I see are the Toyota Hylux and the Isuzu D-Max. Might have something to do with the crazy price of gas over here.
I don't think cornering the educational market really helped Apple too much with home computer sales. I was raised on Apple computers when I was at scho and I was always very PC orientated. I never paid any attention to Apple computers and other than this vintage Mac I am using, I have no real intenti of buying a modern one. I never came across Heath/Zenith machines and probab would be completely unware of them were it not for Reddit's r/vintagecomputi which has had a few Zenith owners posting pictures of their computers. They look ancient, like proper terminal machines! I think the Apple // was the bi seller in terms of every school having one in the late 70s and 80s.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-08-20 20:21, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm guessing I can use a Linux box and convert that into such a
gateway.
Overkill, but you can, with tcpser. If you're already running a Linux
box that has a serial port or a spare USP port and USB to serial, it's
a convenient option. :)
The multiplication part was easy to figure out. It was just
surprising, as the first architecture I got to know was Intel, and I didn't expect 6502 not to have MUL and DIV. It is an architecture at a human scale though, one an individual get understand. Compare that
with modern Intel.
Intel was classic CISC back then, so instructions like MUL would be expected. )
I didn't move away from BASIC until I had a machine with 4M of RAM. So never been a problem for me. Having less RAM to use keeps you focused.
I started with Applesoft on the Apple II and IIe, then quickly was introduced to MBASIC and TP on CP/M, before I left school. After that
was TP on DOS, and in second year uni, was introduced to ASM on the PC (8086), and branched out to a couple of other processors. As I said, I became quite fond of the 6809, which was quite easy to program, though coming from a PC background, one had to get used to no I/O ports, I/O
was memory mapped. Not hard, just a different mindset. :)
I don't consider myself a youngster, but I do feel I missed out a bit
with the introduction of this technology. Sure, you can argue we have
You still sound younger than me. I'm 52. :)
iProducts today, and so on and so on, but the spirit of discovery and control isn't there. You can run awesome apps, but you can't really
use the hardware. There is this sense of detachment, of using someone elses design, and of everything being hidden. It's like wanting to
cook, but all you have is this sleek black box that you put
pre-prepared ingredients, and you jockey the UI to get what you need,
or learn its own unique language and methods to bake a cake.
A lot of modern tech can seem like that, but there's still a lot of "systems integration" that can be done at a higher level, which is actually my stronger suit, rather than being bogged down in the
minutae. It's a different mindset again, but one that suits me. Especially fun when one can make things not designed to work together
do just that. :)
Maybe my standards are to high then!
Maybe! :D
I had a look through my /usr/local/src quickly, and yeah, most of that stuff I didn't have trouble with.
Yes, the majority of source I have uses some variant of the ./configure (or cmake src/), make, make install process. :)
Oh man, I started out with a hand me down Atari 400 as my first computer as a fairly wee lad (Still have it and it still works), kinda missed the 16 bit era as I was using a hand-me-down Atari 800XL during most of that period (Still have that one too, but it needs a little refurb) and then jumped to a 386. I picked up a couple STs a few years ago to play around with as they were out of reach to me when they were current.
I quite like his work. He tends to put in a fair bit of research and script time, and it shows in the final product.
Looks like I'll be in the market for a phone soon, and I have a bit of money available, so the SE is definitely on my list of candidates (it's around $700 here, still not too bad). I run both an Android and an Apple. I could downgrade my current Android to secondary/backup and switch primary to Apple - reduce the load on the Android, which is starting to show signs of age. I used to run an iPhone years ago and there is a lot to like about Apple from a phone standpoint. I'll probably never be a single platform guy, same as I'm not on the desktop. I tend to use what fits the task at hand.
I really like the aesthetic of the Atari 400... seems to me like it must have been one of the world's first gaming consoles, albeit capable of much more than playing games. The 8-Bit cartridges you can pickup for them are really cute. I saw one installed with the BASIC computing language.
On 09-10-20 20:05, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Memory mapped IO is almost the same as using I/O ports. Put the right number in the right location. You just need to be a little more
cognisant of which memory locations you can't store your data in. It
was this way with the PC until protected mode anyway, with the BIOS
data area. You could for example, selectively turn on and off the keyboard leds by poking a number in this area.
I don't consider myself a youngster, but I do feel I missed out a bit
with the introduction of this technology. Sure, you can argue we have
You still sound younger than me. I'm 52. :)
OK, just a decade difference then.
The meta-problem of how to tie everything together is an intersting
one, and one I think few people get right. At work, I always feel like I'm struggling with the software and systems. Forever copying data manually from one applicaton to another, searching, editing. Some time ago, we settled on this idea that a computer system is created by
buying "applications", and each one is a self contained "solution". I think Unix took the right path, where the OS itself was itself a
software suite, that you tie together as you need it. Separation of
data from programs.
codec2), which gives the best audio quality. :)
On 09-10-20 11:11, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Looking at my friend's phones, Androids seem to degrade in performance faster than iPhones. I am too caught up in the iOS enviroment to ever think about switching to Android... there's pros and cons, obviously,
but I've never come across an operating system as smooth and reliable
as iOS - everything about it, even Safari, is the best in the market (imo). The downside is that the AppStore can be picky with what they
place on their shop window - so many apps available on Android are not available on iOS, and you're on to plums if you want to shop for apps elsewhere. It's a very curated experience, but one that's perfect for
the user so long as you don't mind pretty much relinquishing all
control of your device to Apple.
Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'd think best bang for the buckm are either a Nokia 150 DS (got it for less than 40 dollar here, allows for making calls, sending SMS, playing snake, and features FM radio) or a Nokia 3.1 (Android Oreo, around 100 bucks, none of my posh friend-'s overpriced Apples has a feature I miss
in this one).
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
For a long time the top selling vehicle in the US was the Ford F-150 pickup. In the US alone I think their sales were compared to the Toyota Corolla worldwide.
I'd think best bang for the buckm are either a Nokia 150 DS (got it for less than 40 dollar here, allows for making calls, sending SMS, playing snake, and features FM radio) or a Nokia 3.1 (Android Oreo, around 100 bucks, none of my posh friend¨'s overpriced Apples has a feature I miss in this one).
But back in the times when ZDS was making the first laptops that could actually run awhile on battery, the SupersPort 286 was also re-branded and sold as the HP Vectra and under the Honeywell Bull brand. They also contracted out to build systems for Data General and I recall a system that was the same as the Morrow system that looked like a lunchbox. some early designs were also made with the help of Bill Gates, who created a custom version of MS-DOS which loaded from a ROM.
I can at least offer a fairly balanced and unbiased opinion either way, having used both for years at different times. :)
Comparing Apples and Androids is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. :)
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Re: Re: Young folks
By: Andeddu to Underminer on Thu Sep 10 2020 11:02 am
I really like the aesthetic of the Atari 400... seems to me like it must have been one of the world's first gaming consoles, albeit capable of much more than playing games. The 8-Bit cartridges you can pickup for them are really cute. I saw one installed with the BASIC computing language.
The 400 was meant as a home computer more than a gaming console. The
2600 was the gaming console on offer by atari at the time. The 400
could play games, and the a8 versions of games were much more
impressive than the 2600 offerings, but it wasn't the focus. --- Underminer - The Undermine BBS
þ Synchronet þ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
For a long time the top selling vehicle in the US was the Ford F-150It's also been the best selling truck in the world. And, I don't
think they sell them outside the USA!
On 09-11-20 18:31, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
LOL, yeah... they're very different in their own way. I am probably not the best person to speak to in regards to the differences between the platforms as I have no solid Android experience and always end up eulogising Apple. I've used Android phones (work issue) but have never owned one. Prior to picking up an iPhone I was on a Nokia which had
Mobile Windows installed... those were very dark days!
The Amiga/Atari comparison gets even more strange when you stop and realize that a good chunk of the team that developed the Amiga were
former Atari folks, and a good chunk of the team that developed the
Atari ST were former Commodore engineers who moved over with Jack.
In essense if you boil it down, the Atari ST is the successor to the 8
bit Commodore systems, and the Amiga is the successor to the 8 bit
Atari systems. ---
Re: Re: Young folks
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Fri Sep 11 2020 06:39 am
For a long time the top selling vehicle in the US was the Ford
F-150 It's also been the best selling truck in the world. And, I
don't think they sell them outside the USA!
Well they at least sell them north of 49 here in Canuckistan.
Yeah after the Symbian Nokia era, I went to iPhone, as Android wasn't quite ready at that time, but quickly caught up. After 7 years on Apple, with a tight budget, I switched to Android, and have had Android as my main phone since.
I like both, but each for different reasons. Android has some innovative apps that will never see the light of day on Apple, but I find Apple and iOS, with its more controlled ecosystem to be more stable, especially in the long term.
I'm seriously considering Apple as my primary phone in the near future, but retaining the Android I have as a secondary/specialist/backup.
On 09-13-20 18:45, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I guess you can't go wrong with either. What's your Android phone? I
have a Galaxy Note 9 which is work issue. I like it a lot, runs
everything smoothly and the screen is better than any Apple phone I've
ever owned. Watching videos is pretty awesome on this thing. I still prefer iOS as an enviroment however in terms of actual hardware, the
Samsung phones are better looking and more feature rich than the
iPhones.
Mine's one of those midrange Chinese phones. It's been quite good, but doesn't have the same longevity of the big brands - but I've still had 2 years out of it, so far. I agree, I've had the best screens for readability on Android.
Mine's one of those midrange Chinese phones. It's been quite good, but doesn't have the same longevity of the big brands - but I've still had years out of it, so far. I agree, I've had the best screens for readability on Android.
So I've run an Apple iPhone since the very first one came out and for a whil I was buying the new model every single year. Since the iPhone 7 or so, I switched to buying every other year because... well, build quality AND price were both going UP UP UP and......
However, at $1000 across the board [and more for the pro, which I didn't buy last time. I bought the 11.] I don't know that they are worth it anymore. Even if you can stretch it out to 2 years.....
I am thinking about switching to the $399 Pixel 4A [I believe] on this next go around... Its gonna hurt me, because I have SOOOO much in the Apple eco-system.... but with Android I'll gain the Linux terminal... so thats a really cool thing. :P I can ssh around easily.
I wonder if the middle-of-the-road Pixel 4A will do it for me; I know @ $399 it'll do it for my wallet. And at that price I can go back to a new phone once a year... guess I just have to decide to pull the trigger!
This year is my buy year, regardless, so I suppose I just have to decide if I'd rather save $600 bucks, or keep the same iPhone that I always have.
|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........
So I've run an Apple iPhone since the very first one came out and for a while I was buying the new model every single year. Since the iPhone 7 or so, I switched to buying every other year because... well, build quality AND price were both going UP UP UP and......
Wow, a smartphone a year, wtf?????
I plan for my electronics to last four years at least. Anything that does not survive that long does not deserve premium prices.
I wish I knew the secret to have people throw money uselessly at me like smartphone companies do.
However, at $1000 across the board [and more for the pro, which I
didn't buy last time. I bought the 11.] I don't know that they are
worth it anymore. Even if you can stretch it out to 2 years.....
Mine's one of those midrange Chinese phones. It's been quite good, but doesn't have the same longevity of the big brands - but I've still had 2 years out of it, so far. I agree, I've had the best screens for readability on Android.
They do make good phones, but their prices are also around where a lot of Apple is nowadays.
One thing that really irritates me with the Android phones I've had is the app upgrades that delete the badge, meaning apps disappear from where I put them but you can still find them under "Apps". And of course, while I notice the missing badges, I never remember what was supposed to be there.
So I've run an Apple iPhone since the very first one came out and for while I was buying the new model every single year. Since the iPhone so, I switched to buying every other year because... well, build qual AND price were both going UP UP UP and......
I've never seen the need to buy a new phone even that often.. Usually I'll go a bout 4 years before buying a new smartphone.
Nightfox
At any rate, I wonder what switching to a cheaper, Android version is gonna do to that whole mix... I guess time will tell.
On 09-14-20 07:48, paulie420 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
So I've run an Apple iPhone since the very first one came out and for a while I was buying the new model every single year. Since the iPhone 7
or so, I switched to buying every other year because... well, build quality AND price were both going UP UP UP and......
However, at $1000 across the board [and more for the pro, which I
didn't buy last time. I bought the 11.] I don't know that they are
worth it anymore. Even if you can stretch it out to 2 years.....
I am thinking about switching to the $399 Pixel 4A [I believe] on this next go around... Its gonna hurt me, because I have SOOOO much in the Apple eco-system.... but with Android I'll gain the Linux terminal...
so thats a really cool thing. :P I can ssh around easily.
I wonder if the middle-of-the-road Pixel 4A will do it for me; I know @ $399 it'll do it for my wallet. And at that price I can go back to a
new phone once a year... guess I just have to decide to pull the
trigger!
This year is my buy year, regardless, so I suppose I just have to
decide if I'd rather save $600 bucks, or keep the same iPhone that I always have.
On 09-14-20 18:43, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
There's a good few mid-range Chinese phones. Obviously Huawei is a
little controvertial but the hardware itself is high quality and inexpensive. I like OnePlus as a mid-range phone company. My dad and
sister have moved onto their phones as they seem no worse than anything Samsung churn out and are a lot cheaper.
We spend so much of our time on phones these days that I am quite happy
to spend much more than I would have 10-15 years ago on a phone.
They're more important to me than PCs now and have perfectly integrated themselves into the lives of so many people. Still, that doesn't mean I will just throw money away just to get the best model and a slightly
nicer screen... iPhone SE it is!
On 09-14-20 12:38, Nightfox wrote to paulie420 <=-
I've never seen the need to buy a new phone even that often.. Usually I'll go about 4 years before buying a new smartphone.
Android phones can be about as expensive as iPhones. At least Samsung's Galaxy phones are.. Samsung seems to be competing with Apple with their Galaxy phones, and they can cost around $1,000 or more these days.
So I've run an Apple iPhone since the very first one came out and while I was buying the new model every single year. Since the iPho so, I switched to buying every other year because... well, build q AND price were both going UP UP UP and......
I've never seen the need to buy a new phone even that often.. Usually I'll go a bout 4 years before buying a new smartphone.
Nightfox
This is a reply to Arelor and Nightfox, really...
There are plenty of people who buy the new iPhone every year. Like I said, too, I've slowed down a BIT - but yea, I slowed down to once every other yea and thought that was stretching it out for me. Also, I used to sell the 1 year old iPhone and get out of the whole ordeal for less than a couple hundred bux. I guess I was an Apple fan boy and needed the new tech each time.
At any rate, I wonder what switching to a cheaper, Android version is gonna do to that whole mix... I guess time will tell.
|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........
Android phones can be about as expensive as iPhones. At least Samsung's Galaxy phones are.. Samsung seems to be competing with Apple with their Galaxy phones, and they can cost around $1,000 or more these days.
Nightfox
What about the iPhone SE? That looks like a decent phone (still has the top end processor) without the frills, and at a price closer to the
Pixel.
I've found it depends on the phone. If you buy a brand name phone - Apple, Samsung, etc, 4 years or more is perfectly reasonable. You _may_ have to get the battery replaced in that time, but that's about it.
The cheaper phones do develop other issues, sometimes in as little as a year. Some are repairable - Had to have a battery replaced, because it bulged in one of the Androids after a year, the other had a fault in the charging port, partly my fault - an ebay purchase and a trip to a local phone repair shop fixed that. :)
Other faults weren't fixable - my first Android developed a fault that looked like some sort of internal short that repidly drained the battery and made it almost impossible to charge. Repair wasn't an option here. :(
Yes, but at least Android phones aren't. on average, about a year behind in technology like iPhones are.
I get such a kick each year when they announce the new iPhones saying they can do this or that, and I[m like: Great, We've been able to do that on Android for about a year now. Seems that ever since Apple started the smartphone revolution they've been playing catch-up with everyone else.
I've never used a Huawei phone, but I have used their 3g Internet dongles and they were rock solid, worked really well.
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