On 08-15-18 10:28, Hawkeye wrote to MRO <=-
History lesson : Microsoft bought Banyan Vines for their StreetTalk
which was kinda a registry for the network working very well, even
better than Microsofts Domain. Microsoft integrated it very well. Since WindowsNT microsoft tuned this.
On 08-15-18 10:31, Hawkeye wrote to Chris <=-
DOS versio of WP, especially 5.1 was very powerful with macros.
On 08-15-18 12:29, Nightfox wrote to Digital Man <=-
I have noticed Windows seems to slow down after a while though, so I wonder if the registry does contribute to slowdown or if it could be something else. Doing a fresh re-install of Windows often helps make
the PC feel faster.
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
This was a Windows 3.1 machine - 386sx - so I was able to learn win.ini, etc. (already knew DOS stuff).
I wish Windows still kept its settings in .ini files rather than the registry. It seems that the registry is one thing that can keep growing and growing and become corrupted over the years with software installs
& un-installs, and ends up contributing to the machine becoming slower
and other problems over time.
CHRIS wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Had a CoCo 2 as my first computer! A friend had a first gen - chiclet
keys :-)
Saw the 3 but had moved on to IBM compatible by then...
... He who seeks a friend without a fault remains friendless
My first was a Coco 2 also. Then I made the jump to the 3. I always
wanted to get that grey case Coco 1 just to say I had the trifecta and
now that I could probably get one somewhat easily, I just don't have
the place for it.
Miss those machines. Thankfully OS-9 led me in some ways to Linux.
that's what we all assume happens, but i've actually had a weird antivirus created a registry mirror INSIDE MY REGISTRY, essentially doubling it, and i didnt see any performance issues. i've also gone very long stretches with a growing registry. when i have slowdowns, i open up task mgr and it's usually a program with a memory hole.
I have noticed Windows seems to slow down after a while though, so I
wonder if the registry does contribute to slowdown or if it could be
something else. Doing a fresh re-install of Windows often helps make
the PC feel faster.
Yes, but I think that has more to do with the number of additional processes (programs/tasks/services) which get installed over the course of using a Windows desktop regularly. I've never seen any evidence that the sheer "size" of the registry plays a role in a slow Windows system.
My buddies had Commodore - one had a Vic20, another a c64, another a c64 but also had disk drive and sound card and all that stuff with it. It was nice having access to different systems!
On 08-15-18 15:36, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Linux seems to do fine with a bunch of .conf files. :)
until one gets junked!
Can be recreated from backup, by hand or editing a stock one. :)
Windows does definitely slow down over time, and also sometimes develops some other odd behaviour like pauses and uncommanded focus switching, but it's impossible to work out what is doing that. So many things get installed over time, and it's not easy to keep track of it all. Can't always blame the registry, background applications are more likely the
sometimes it can still seem slower than it should). Also, I've seen times where right-clicking in a folder, which brings up a context menu, the context menu takes a few moments to appear (ideally it should appear pretty much instantly).
I have noticed Windows seems to slow down after a while though, so I
wonder if the registry does contribute to slowdown or if it could be
something else. Doing a fresh re-install of Windows often helps make
the PC feel faster.
it's probably the shitty programs you are running. you can get a monitoring tool and see what is really going on. see if it's trying to write to files and being denied, or whatever.
the best way to fix it. My PC at home right now is actually running fairly well.. It's not dragging or anything when it's running. Some of the slow down may just be hardware based - I put an SSD in it several years ago to use as the boot drive, and I've heard SSDs tend to slow down over time.
the registry was created so there wouldnt have to be a bunch of .ini files littering directories. it's also probably faster.
Linux seems to do fine with a bunch of .conf files. :)
Linux seems to do fine with a bunch of .conf files. :)
They also have their own home rather than being scattered everywhere.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Chris <=-
The only time I ever used WordPerfect professionally was at a law firm under a managing director who hated Microsoft. They used an HP midrange
It was a perfect case of choosing a solution to avoid a vendor and was
the worst environment I worked in.,
Nightfox wrote to Hawkeye <=-
I had a job where we worked in Linux, and I got pretty good with Vim
and had set up some macros with Vim.. I wonder how that compares to WordPerfect for DOS.. I never did use WordPerfect for DOS back in the day.
NIGHTFOX wrote to HAWKEYE <=-
I had a job where we worked in Linux, and I got pretty good with Vim
and had set up some macros with Vim.. I wonder how that compares to WordPerfect for DOS.. I never did use WordPerfect for DOS back in the day.
On 08-15-18 18:42, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Can be recreated from backup, by hand or editing a stock one. :)
i'd rather install windows!
On 08-15-18 18:43, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
no no no it doesnt. i also dont have uncommanded focus switching. i think the programs you are installing are fucking things up.
it is NOT impossible to find out whats dragging down a windows os. you
can check the task mgr and even use diagnostic tools like i mentioned before.
On 08-15-18 21:20, Static wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Linux seems to do fine with a bunch of .conf files. :)
They also have their own home rather than being scattered everywhere.
I think that's a myth to sell "PC speed-up software" you don't need.
I have noticed Windows seems to slow down after a while though, so I wonder if the registry does contribute to slowdown or if it could be something else. Doing a fresh re-install of Windows often helps make the PC feel faster.
Banyan Vines did work very well back in the day, I saw it implemented across a university campus in the early 90s. Helped to install a server as part of a project, before handing it over to the uni's tech staff.
Seems like I read online--once upon a time--that the courts used to require documents in Word Perfect format. That obviously is no longer the case. It's apparently good for dealing with legal documents.
speaking of ssd's there is a sandisk ultra 1 tb drive for
189 at bestbuy now
Even Google Docs (or Drive, as they call it now) is WYSIWYG.
Task Manager doesn't always seem to show everything. Sometimes you can see (and kill) an errant process that's eating up CPU time. Other times, the system seems slow, but no obvious clues in Task Manager.
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
My buddies had Commodore - one had a Vic20, another a c64, another a c64 but also had disk drive and sound card and all that stuff with it. It was nice having access to different systems!
I heard a lot about Commodore, Amiga, and others back in the day, but
most people I knew had an IBM-compatible PC. My schools often used
Apple computers, but I don't think many people I knew used an Apple at home.
Apple seemed to almost disappear in the mid 90s, but they
started to do a lot better when Steve Jobs came back to Apple and they started making the iMac and iPod. Now that Steve Jobs is gone, I've
heard some people say it seems like Apple is stagnating (and indeed, it doesn't seem like they've done a whole lot on the Mac front), but
they're in a lot better position today than they used to be.
it is NOT impossible to find out whats dragging down a windows os. you can check the task mgr and even use diagnostic tools like i mentioned before.
Task Manager doesn't always seem to show everything. Sometimes you can see (and kill) an errant process that's eating up CPU time. Other times, the system seems slow, but no obvious clues in Task Manager.
Mose live in /etc or /usr/local/etc, which is handy. Some do live in specific application directories, such as when a user has installed an application just for themselves.
On 08-16-18 09:32, Hawkeye wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I helped a financial company with it. I was Netware expert back then
and connecting Windows clients. They had issues with BV doing this (If
I remember well v2.52 lol) I tweaked everything and during that project
I became also familiar with tokenring. I was in love of BV. Never saw
it before that project, read the manuals and said.. I said to the
senior sysadmin we can do a lot you would love and want. Very flexible.
On 08-16-18 09:57, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Task Manager isn't the only tool out there to watch a Windows system.
On 08-16-18 16:17, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
if you have that issue you probably have a performance bottleneck in
your hardware. it could be motherboard, harddisk or memory.
On 08-16-18 16:46, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-
rtorrent and a bunch of other programs put their config files in the user's home dir
On 08-16-18 09:52, Nightfox wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
@VIA: VERT/DIGDIST
Re: Article: Family computers
By: JIMMY ANDERSON to NIGHTFOX on Wed Aug 15 2018 07:50 am
Even Google Docs (or Drive, as they call it now) is WYSIWYG.
I thought Google Docs and Google Drive were separate things..? Google Drive would be basically a network space where you can store files, and Google Docs would be their document editing software, I thought.
On 08-16-18 10:07, JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-
Oh I'm talking pre-IBM PC age. :-)
We don't see the industry changing stuff, but our school is a MAC
shop and we have no problems with them. :-)
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Even Google Docs (or Drive, as they call it now) is WYSIWYG.
I thought Google Docs and Google Drive were separate things..? Google Drive would be basically a network space where you can store files, and Google Docs would be their document editing software, I thought.
Well they quit calling it Google Docs. Now you just go to Drive (yes, you JA>can store stuff there too) and either upload a Word or Excel or what have JA>you and it will offer to convert to Google Docs, Google Sheets or Google JA>Slides. Google Docs used to be all of the above.
On 08-16-18 09:57, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Task Manager isn't the only tool out there to watch a Windows system.
Got any good suggestions? Unlike Linux, which generally has top and ps, along with kill and killall installed (for starters), one tends to have to go third party for Windows tools. :(
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Even Google Docs (or Drive, as they call it now) is WYSIWYG.
I thought Google Docs and Google Drive were separate things..? Google Drive would be basically a network space where you can store files, and Google Docs would be their document editing software, I thought.
Well they quit calling it Google Docs. Now you just go to Drive (yes, you can store stuff there too) and either upload a Word or Excel or what have you and it will offer to convert to Google Docs, Google Sheets or Google Slides. Google Docs used to be all of the above.
ROBERT WOLFE wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Well they quit calling it Google Docs. Now you just go to Drive (yes, you
can store stuff there too) and either upload a Word or Excel or what have
you and it will offer to convert to Google Docs, Google Sheets or Google
Slides. Google Docs used to be all of the above.
Well, the entire package is now called "G Suite" and it's a pretty impressive lineup. I use them for my robertwolfe.org email as I got
tired of having to manage an important (to me) email domain and figured
I would let someone else to the behind the scenes work. I also use
Google Meet from time to time, which is there Cisco WebEx-alike
offering which is pretty decent.
Task Manager isn't the only tool out there to watch a Windows
system.
Got any good suggestions? Unlike Linux, which generally has top and ps, along with kill and killall installed (for starters), one tends to have to go third party for Windows tools. :(
Yeah - G Suite - we use the educational version for free, but I also
pay $5 a month for it for my website that I use for my podcast. Yes,
the podcast I've not published in MONTHS! LOL
ROBERT WOLFE wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Well, the entire package is now called "G Suite" and it's a pretty impressive lineup. I use them for my robertwolfe.org email as I got
tired of having to manage an important (to me) email domain and figured
I would let someone else to the behind the scenes work. I also use
Nightfox wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
That's the reason I generally don't really like the idea of software as
a service where you have to pay per month to use it. It may seem
cheaper up front, but there's a lot of software I only use
occasionally, and I don't feel like it makes sense to keep paying a monthly fee for it when I only use it occasionally. I'd rather buy the software up front and be able to use it whenver I want, even if it may
be more expensive up front that way. I may end up still using the software (occasionally) for years, and I like having it there when I want/need to use it.
On 08-17-18 08:54, Digital Man wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I use these: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/pstools https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/process-explorer
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/tcpview https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/handle
... in addition to netstat and task manager and other built-ins.
On 08-17-18 09:39, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Process Monitor is fairly good, and is developed by Microsoft (it's
part of their sysinternals suite), so it's technically not third-party: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/procmon
On 08-17-18 15:39, Chai wrote to ROBERT WOLFE <=-
I wish Google would expand their GMail interface to work with multiple IMAP e-mail accounts from different vendors. Sort of a universal
e-mail client built on the web. There is always Thunderbird. I know.
I would still prefer a web based solution. You can kind of do this
with outlook.com, but I do not like their interface when using multiple accounts.
That's the reason I generally don't really like the idea of software
as a service where you have to pay per month to use it. It may seem
cheaper up front, but there's a lot of software I only use
occasionally, and I don't feel like it makes sense to keep paying a
monthly fee for it when I only use it occasionally. I'd rather buy
I somewhat agree, but I think they should offer both? Let people choose how they want to do it. The reason I say this is that I prefer to purchase
most software outright, but sometimes I need to sell off hardware that only has Linux, as a Windows license was never purchased for it. A computer is useless to most people without Windows. If Microsoft quoted a 3-5 seat subscription for $5 a month, I could put that cost on the buyer. As it is, a Microsoft license eats up the entire value of my used machines. Most people are not going to cough up an additional $100 for a Windows license on top of the value of the machine, but $5 a month for multiple seats is less intimidating to them.
Still, we know that will never happen. And, if it did, MS would prefer a higher subscription rate than $5. Most software should not be SaaS. Operating Systems are the exception, but only if it is two tier (both SaaS and static solutions available for purchase).
The only time I ever used WordPerfect professionally was at a law firm under managing director who hated Microsoft. They used an HP midrange system runni HP-UX, a unix app called Portable Netware that made the UNIX system look lik Netware file server to the clients, Windows for Workgroups and WordPerfect.
It was a perfect case of choosing a solution to avoid a vendor and was the worst environment I worked in.,
Who needs room. :-) Hang it on the wall! LOLNever thought of that lol.
My buddies had Commodore - one had a Vic20, another a c64, another a c64 but also had disk drive and sound card and all that stuff with it. It was
nice having access to different systems!
We were all part of an RPG group as well, so one of the first things
we all did was take our favorite game system and write a character generation program for it. LOL
... Either this man's dead, or my watch is stopped. -Groucho
DIGITAL MAN wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Even Google Docs (or Drive, as they call it now) is WYSIWYG.
I thought Google Docs and Google Drive were separate things..? Google Drive would be basically a network space where you can store files, and Google Docs would be their document editing software, I thought.
Well they quit calling it Google Docs. Now you just go to Drive (yes, you can store stuff there too) and either upload a Word or Excel or what have you and it will offer to convert to Google Docs, Google Sheets or Google Slides. Google Docs used to be all of the above.
Pretty sure they still call it "Docs". They also have "Sheets" and "Slides", etc. Together they make up the "G Suite": https://gsuite.google.com/ It's all great until your access to the Internet is gone or spotty.
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Yeah - G Suite - we use the educational version for free, but I also
pay $5 a month for it for my website that I use for my podcast. Yes,
the podcast I've not published in MONTHS! LOL
That's the reason I generally don't really like the idea of software as
a service where you have to pay per month to use it. It may seem
cheaper up front, but there's a lot of software I only use
occasionally, and I don't feel like it makes sense to keep paying a monthly fee for it when I only use it occasionally. I'd rather buy the software up front and be able to use it whenver I want, even if it may
be more expensive up front that way. I may end up still using the software (occasionally) for years, and I like having it there when I want/need to use it.
We used to have an HP9000 running our primary application (with HP-UX as the C>OS). I remember my jaw hit the floor when I saw a manual for the HP-UX version
of Wordperfect. I had no idea there was any such version. We never used it, but
I'm guessing it just came as part of the system all those years ago.
Nightfox wrote to Chai <=-
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Chai to Nightfox on Fri Aug 17 2018 04:09 pm
It would be nice if they'd offer both for people who want to do it
either way. I think some companies have moved to the software as a
service model to combat piracy, especially if the software is cloud/web-based. If users can only use an online version, then there
is no version they can copy and install on their own computers.
Though, I'd still like to be able to buy a copy outright and be able to install and use it on my own machine..
If I have a computer I built with Windows on it, I'd probably just opt
to include that copy of Windows with that computer. I'd end up buying another Windows license for a new PC I'd build, but I think I'd still
end up making money in the end. If I sell one of my used PCs for $500
and the Windows license cost $100, that's still money gained.
I have the feeling Microsoft may be going to a SaaS model with Windows.
With Windows 10, Microsoft has been forcing Windows updates on PCs,
and even if you turn off Windows Update, I've heard it can get turned
back on automatically and Microsoft will force an update eventually.
I'm wondering if Microsoft might argue that they're performing a
service by keeping peoples' operating systems up to date and so they'd want to charge money for that service. One thing that annoys me is
that sometimes when a Windows 10 update gets pushed, some of my Windows settings get reverted back to their defaults. I'd think they would be able to preserve your settings..
CHRIS wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-
Fortunately we had a Service Merchandise in the center of town so I
would hang out down there and play with the C64 (and later C128) on display all the time.
I got to know Netware later, oddly enough. Bother were solid network offerings, though from memory, BV had a lot more features.
I never really worked with token ring, all the active networks I had anything to do with were Ethernet.
if you have that issue you probably have a performance bottleneck in your hardware. it could be motherboard, harddisk or memory.
Still odd that these things never show up early on, but come later. Sure, more software has been installed, but.
That's the reason I generally don't really like the idea of software as a service where you have to pay per month to use it. It may seem cheaper up front, but there's a lot of software I only use occasionally, and I don't feel like it makes sense to keep paying a monthly fee for it when I only use it occasionally. I'd rather buy the software up front and be able to use it whenver I want, even if it may be more expensive up front that way. I may end up still using the software (occasionally) for years, and I like having it there when I want/need to use it.
Nightfox
Still, we know that will never happen. And, if it did, MS would prefer a higher subscription rate than $5. Most software should not be SaaS.
On 08-19-18 18:50, Hawkeye wrote to Vk3jed <=-
BV was in the beginning used in a lot of former mainframe/minicomputer environments withs lots of clients. I remember some tokenring devices
were 50k per device, not for small/medium size companies.
Netware became better and better and so also an option for these
companies later on, also thanks to Netware combined with Windows.
I never really worked with token ring, all the active networks I had anything to do with were Ethernet.
Yeah, Im speaking about the late 80s. ARCnet, Ethernet, Tokenring and 10base2 (bnc), etc... Tokenring was capable of doing 16/4 mbit in those time without any noticable lag when using lots of devices. The switches became better and better and the new tokenring couldnt cope the speeds anymore. And we should be happy about this because it was a pain in the a$$ when something went wrong, diagnostics was a true hell.
On 08-19-18 20:06, Clifra Jones wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Comming in a little late here but I've had to support Windows for Corp. users for years and they can dork up their computers pretty bad.
1. Check for things you don't recognize in Programs and Features.
Google them,
and if suspect uninstall.
2. As was suggested. look in the registry in:
HKLM/Softwar/Microsoft/Windows/CurrentVersion/Run and
HKLU/Software/Microsoft/Windows/CurrentVersion/Run
Remove things that are suspect. Again google if unsure.
Note: Some malware will put a reinstaller in here when you uninstall
After uninstalling suspect softwere check here before
rebooting. 3. MalwareBytes. This is a very good Malware scanner. It is free and works
quite well
4. Do you shut down? We see a lot of laptop users who just suspend
their
computers and over time they get real slow. Windows just does not
deal
long term suspend/hybernate.
5. This is probably a not likely but haveseen it. Large # of items in a folder
Once you start getting ocver 200-250 items in a folder (I really
don't know
the exact # when this occures) windows will start getting sluggish searching
for items in that folder.
6. Lastly, and you have probably have checked. Disk space. Low c: drive space
will kill performance.
On 08-19-18 20:17, Clifra Jones wrote to Nightfox <=-
For my personnal use, I tend to go with Open-Source software if I can
find it and it fits the purpose.
As an IT pro i am kind of with you there. With everything going to the cloud and yes my employer is moving in that direction. We are partially there (Email). We have a saying about Cloud services. The Cloud is great, until it not. Because when it is not you can't fix it. You are dependent of the vendo i.e Microsoft, Amazon, Google.
This subscription model works better for business that the individual. It is easier when you need to upgrade your hardware or business software to tell management that they only need to authorize $X.00 / month than to get a capi expenditure approved for 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars. The nice thing for IT is now we know we wil not have computers with Office 2010 installed i 2020.
For my personnal use, I tend to go with Open-Source software if I can find i and it fits the purpose.
I'm the opposite. I don't like webmail for heavy duty use. I find the navigation shlower and clumsier. I use Thunderbird, which does the job for me, even though the Gmail interface is available.
On 08-20-18 09:59, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I always used to like using a local email app (I used Thunderbird for a long time, and Eudora before that). However, these days I often access
my email from multiple places, so I've gotten in the habit of just
using the web interface. It used to be that a local email client would
download your email to that machine and remove it from the server, but
I think there's an option to leave your email on the server. I just
have tended to use the web interface though.. Also, I've gotten to
like Gmail's email tags, and I'm not sure the same thing would be supported in something like Thunderbird.
my email from multiple places, so I've gotten in the habit of just
using the web interface. It used to be that a local email client
would
That's what laptops are for - yes, you can use a phone, but I find phones have a lot of the usability issues web interfaces have, sometimes worse.
You've obviously never used IMAP - that leaves everything intact, and you can use folders for organisation, which will be reflected in webmail as well. POP is primitive and yes, it does cause a lot of issues if not carefully setup. But any half decent mail service supports IMAP, use that instead, it will play nice with both multiple email clients accessing the same mailbox, as well as webmail (which often uses IMAP internally - Google uses its own system that it translates to IMAP for external clients). So for me, I still use Thunderbird for heavy duty mail reading, and the web interface is there for those occasions where I want to check for something specific from somewhere else.
We used to have an HP9000 running our primary application (with HP-UX as t C>OS). I remember my jaw hit the floor when I saw a manual for the HP-UX ver C>of Wordperfect. I had no idea there was any such version. We never used it C>I'm guessing it just came as part of the system all those years ago.
HP-UX -- use it every day at work. On a huge HP SuperDome (can't
remember if it is the 2 or the X, as we have both at work). Gotta love
all those racks of IOX devices :)
Actually, a personnal subscription to Office 365 is only $6.99 /mo and a home subscription (5 installs) is only $9.99 /month.
Actually, a personnal subscription to Office 365 is only $6.99 /mo and
a home subscription (5 installs) is only $9.99 /month.
There are website (legal) who offer 1 year subscription for less than the 12*9.99... I use them for years now.
Nightfox wrote to Hawkeye <=-
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Hawkeye to Clifra Jones on Tue Aug 21 2018 06:05 pm
To buy a copy of Office, suppose it costs $100. Then at $6.99/month,
it would take about 14 months (just over 1 year) to match the cost to
buy it. I would normally keep the software installed longer than that,
so I think it would be less expensive to just buy it rather than to
keep paying a monthly fee to use it.
On 08-20-18 17:31, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
My "multiple places" I meant more like using multiple machines. I
could have Thunderbird installed on my PC at home, for checking my personal email account, but I'm not necessarily going to install Thunderbird on my work PC for checking my personal email. Or I might
Yeah, I suppose I haven't used IMAP..
There are website (legal) who offer 1 year subscription for less than t 12*9.99... I use them for years now.
To buy a copy of Office, suppose it costs $100. Then at $6.99/month, it wou take about 14 months (just over 1 year) to match the cost to buy it. I woul normally keep the software installed longer than that, so I think it would b less expensive to just buy it rather than to keep paying a monthly fee to us it.
Keep in mind that montly rate does include OneDrive 1TB of storage per user (totalling to 5TB for all users) and the latest version of Microsoft Office. To me, that's still worth the $9.99/month. Again, I do use OneDrive heavily on both my personal and business Officr 365 accounts.
On 08-22-18 08:58, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-
Keep in mind that montly rate does include OneDrive 1TB of storage per user (totalling to 5TB for all users) and the latest version of
Microsoft Office. To me, that's still worth the $9.99/month. Again, I
do use OneDrive heavily on both my personal and business Officr 365 accounts.
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Hawkeye to Clifra Jones on Tue Aug 21 2018 06:05 pm
Actually, a personnal subscription to Office 365 is only $6.99 /mo and
a home subscription (5 installs) is only $9.99 /month.
There are website (legal) who offer 1 year subscription for less than the 12*9.99... I use them for years now.
To buy a copy of Office, suppose it costs $100. Then at $6.99/month, it would take about 14 months (just over 1 year) to match the cost to buy it.
I would normally keep the software installed longer than that, so I think it would be less expensive to just buy it rather than to keep paying a monthly fee to use it.
Nightfox
Nightfox wrote to Hawkeye <=-
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Hawkeye to Clifra Jones on Tue Aug 21 2018 06:05 pm
To buy a copy of Office, suppose it costs $100. Then at $6.99/month, it would take about 14 months (just over 1 year) to match the cost to buy it. I would normally keep the software installed longer than that, so I think it would be less expensive to just buy it rather than to keep paying a monthly fee to use it.
The $9.99 for 5 users is a better deal, if you have a large family. I agree with you on the $6.99/mo plan, as it is more expensive. If you pay annually though, it comes out to about $5.83/mo.
Office is one of those things that you can afford to skip versions on. I think Office 2007 is still useful today. You can save a lot of money with just outright buying it, and skipping versions. I'm with you there.
Chai
Correct, you will always pay more in the long run with a subscription but unfortunately this is the way it is going. The one up side is you will always have the latest version. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate. But for the vendor, i.e. Microsoft, they don't have to support the old versions. Also a plus for guys like me who have to support it also. Clifra Jones
We used to have an HP9000 running our primary application (with HP-UX as the OS). I remember my jaw hit the floor when I saw a manual for the HP-UX version of Wordperfect.
will always have the latest version. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate. But for the vendor, i.e. Microsoft, they don't have to support the old versions. Also a plus for guys like me who have to support it also. Clifra Jones
It just seems like one of those things that's good for the business but worse for the consumer, as the consumer ends up paying more in the long run. It would be disappointing if that ends up being the only choice they offer.
It just seems like one of those things that's good for the business
but worse for the consumer, as the consumer ends up paying more in the
long run. It would be disappointing if that ends up being the only
choice they offer.
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving and updating their product.
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving and updating their product.
Manufacturers haven't really needed subscriptions in the past. Usually, being able to sell new and improved versions has been enough incentive.
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving a updating their product.
Manufacturers haven't really needed subscriptions in the past. Usually, being able to sell new and improved versions has been enough incentive.
it depends on what you call the past. they've been doing it for a while.
having a subscription system allows them to have a steady flow of money whi can be an incentive to keep improving the product.
As far as software goes, I wonder how much of it is an attempt to control priacy. I remember when Adobe's software was a one-time fee and their software was heavily pirated. Now that most of Adobe's software is on a subscription model, it seems more reasonable to afford it and I would imagine that cut down the piracy.
As far as software goes, I wonder how much of it is an attempt to control priacy. I remember when Adobe's software was a one-time fee and their software was heavily pirated. Now that most of Adobe's software is on a subscription model, it seems more reasonable to afford it and I would imagine that cut down the piracy.
people still steal stuff like that, though. they crack where it communicates with the server.
MRO wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving and updating their product.
Manufacturers haven't really needed subscriptions in the past. Usually, being able to sell new and improved versions has been enough incentive.
it depends on what you call the past. they've been doing it for a
while.
having a subscription system allows them to have a steady flow of
money which can be an incentive to keep improving the product.
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving and updating their product.
Jagossel wrote to MRO <=-
As far as software goes, I wonder how much of it is an attempt to
control priacy. I remember when Adobe's software was a one-time fee and their software was heavily pirated. Now that most of Adobe's software
is on a subscription model, it seems more reasonable to afford it and I would imagine that cut down the piracy.
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improving
and updating their product.
What happened in Microsoft's case is that due to diminishing returns, people stopped upgrading to the newest Office.
Office 2000 was a huge leap from 97. Office XP was a nice upgrade. Between 2007, 2010, 2013 and 2016, there didn't seem to be a lot of improvements to merit upgrading your enterprise to the newest version. Outlook did keep up with back-end changes, and 2016 integrates with O365 and has the cool lookup feature, but the former ties into the next point.
They've recently announced that upcoming versions will be subscription
only. For an enterprise, you're tying in software assurance, email, cloud storage
and a suite of enterprise tools like Sharepoint and Teams, but for the home user, I'd move to Google One for $1.99/month (100 GB) or $2.99 (200 gb storage)
priacy. I remember when Adobe's software was a one-time fee and their software was heavily pirated. Now that most of Adobe's software is on a subscription model, it seems more reasonable to afford it and I would imagine that cut down the piracy.
Without real significant improvements in newer versions of Office, I wouldn't really see much point in having to continually pay for it. I'd rather just buy it outright and use it as long as it's useful.
What a way to drive the market, wouldn't you say? I like Office 365 and Microsoft Office, but this drive to "stear" users to be cloud-based only is going to cause them to move away from it (more traffic towards LibreOffice and the like). I believe that there are companies that would prefer on-prem over cloud simply for security reasons.
It took me a while to get the hang of GSuite - I've been using Word and Excel since OS/2 1.3. Now, after using it at home for a year I'm much more comfortable with it than Office365.
Month to month subscription models are kind of nice, because you can choose to pay for it only on the months you need it.
Nightfox wrote to Chai <=-
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Chai to Jagossel on Sat Aug 25 2018 10:05 pm
Month to month subscription models are kind of nice, because you can choose to pay for it only on the months you need it.
I'd think it might be a bit of a hassle sometimes though. I have
Microsoft Office, but I only use it occasionally. I might use it once
and then again months later. I'd rather not have to to go pay $5 again just to be able to use it again a couple times. I just want to be able
to open the software and use it. Having to go online and pay again
also would mean it would rely on me having an interenet connection. I might be using a laptop somewhere where I don't have access to wi-fi.
On 08-26-18 16:54, Nightfox wrote to Chai <=-
@VIA: VERT/DIGDIST
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Chai to Jagossel on Sat Aug 25 2018 10:05 pm
Month to month subscription models are kind of nice, because you can choose to pay for it only on the months you need it.
I'd think it might be a bit of a hassle sometimes though. I have Microsoft Office, but I only use it occasionally. I might use it once
and then again months later. I'd rather not have to to go pay $5 again just to be able to use it again a couple times. I just want to be able
to open the software and use it. Having to go online and pay again
also would mean it would rely on me having an interenet connection. I might be using a laptop somewhere where I don't have access to wi-fi.
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Clifra Jones to Nightfox on Thu Aug 23 2018 09:27 pm
Correct, you will always pay more in the long run with a subscription
but unfortunately this is the way it is going. The one up side is you
will always have the latest version. Whether that is good or bad is up
for debate. But for the vendor, i.e. Microsoft, they don't have to
support the old versions. Also a plus for guys like me who have to
support it also. Clifra Jones
It just seems like one of those things that's good for the business but wors for the consumer, as the consumer ends up paying more in the long run. It would be disappointing if that ends up being the only choice they offer.
Nightfox
Re: Article: Family computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Aug 24 2018 22:23:58
maybe a subscription is an incentive for the mfg to keep improvinga MR> updating their product.
Manufacturers haven't really needed subscriptions in the past.
Usually, being able to sell new and improved versions has been enough incentive.
it depends on what you call the past. they've been doing it for a
while. having a subscription system allows them to have a steady flow of money whi can be an incentive to keep improving the product.
As far as software goes, I wonder how much of it is an attempt to control priacy. I remember when Adobe's software was a one-time fee and their softwa was heavily pirated. Now that most of Adobe's software is on a subscription model, it seems more reasonable to afford it and I would imagine that cut do the piracy.
-jag
What a way to drive the market, wouldn't you say? I like Office 365 and Microsoft Office, but this drive to "stear" users to be cloud-based only is going to cause them to move away from it (more traffic towards LibreOffice a the like). I believe that there are companies that would prefer on-prem over cloud simply for security reasons.
So, I'd imagine not every one will want a cloud-based solution.
Adobe made a big mistake, though - they took their registration infrastructu down not realizing that some clients still used it. I don't know which clien they pissed off, but you can download the entire CS2 suite and serial number for Mac and Windows from their site - with the caveat that you already have license (that won't validate against their decomissioned servers)
I still use CS2, works like a charm under WINE.
Interesting, I didn't know Microsoft made any of their Office apps for OS/2. I looked it up, and it looks like it's available for download here (though I'm not sure if this download was made legally, if Microsoft opened it up as freeware or abandonware):
I get asked a lot about getting office for home and I tell them about
the subscription from Microsoft but also direct them to Google which is free or a much cheaper subscription rate.
and the front-end, which I helped managed, was all Microcomputer-based. (wow, there's a term from the 90s!)
The desktops in IT ran OS/2 1.3, the first version with Presentation Manager, the early GUI. We had Excel and Word for OS/2, a 3290 terminal app, and I used Microcom with a modem to connect to a PBX to administer (and to call BBSes when no one was watching...)
We could run multiple sessions connecting to an AS/400 over Twinax, connect to a MS Lan Manager network and Novell Netware network over Token ring, and have a modem session and office apps running - all on a 386/25 with 8 megs of RAM.
I was amazed at what we could do, compared to the systems running Windows 3.1, which were mostly able to run Office, a terminal app, and then crash.
The stores ran DOS or OS/2, and had timed batch files that connected to the home system to send/receive files, perform maintenance, pass email messages, and restart.
It all seemed like deja vu, you could have done the whole thing with FTN mailers like Frontdoor or BinkleyTerm of and a private FTN. Except it cost thousands of dollars. :)
I like LibreOffice but unless you have some Linux exposure most people have no idea it exists. What I see now is that a lot of schools require the kids to use some kind of Microsoft Office and of course they provide a student version but at my Grandson's school district you only get 30 days and then have to re-apply.
while.
having a subscription system allows them to have a steady flow of money which can be an incentive to keep improving the product.
For reference, see Patreon.com
On 08-27-18 08:07, Clifra Jones wrote to Jagossel <=-
I love how software companies cry about piracy. Photoshop would not be
the defacto standard in that industry of it were not for all those
pirated copies of Photoshop that those design school students had on
their computers. Same goes for AutoDesk. They get out of college, get
jobs and then tell thier employers they need this software and the employer buys multiple licenses. 3 or 4 pirated copies results in many more licensed copies sold.
On 08-27-18 08:16, Clifra Jones wrote to Jagossel <=-
I like LibreOffice but unless you have some Linux exposure most people have no idea it exists. What I see now is that a lot of schools require
I get asked a lot about getting office for home and I tell them about
the subscription from Microsoft but also direct them to Google which is free or a much cheaper subscription rate.
To buy a copy of Office, suppose it costs $100. Then at $6.99/month, it would take about 14 months (just over 1 year) to match the cost to buy it.
I would normally keep the software installed longer than that, so I think it would be less expensive to just buy it rather than to keep paying a monthly fee to use it.
Not to mention that's how Windows came to dominate the world - millions of pirated copies of Windows 3.x. :)
Today, the only thing that has been able
to offer any resistance has been free software (Linux), which has come to dominate the Internet server space, and many niche markets.
Remember when Internet servers ran OSs like Solaris, BSDi and other flavours of UNIX. Today it seems Linux is the most common one, with a fair number of Windows servers and a bit of *BSD.
I subscribed to Office365 for 100% Office compatibility, which only Microsoft could gusrantee, and I needed at a particular time. If I don't need that, I'll use LibreOffice. In the past, I used to use OpenOffice, but I find LibreOffice seems to be just that bit better.
Hawkeye wrote to Nightfox <=-
That is a Home Premium subscription, which is valid for 5 PCs/5 Macs
and unlimited iOS and Android devices. 5 users also have 1 TB OneDrive.
I share the account with my wife, parents and sister/brother-in-law. I have PCs and Macs... so... for me it's a no brainer. Also, always up-to-date... I started with 2010/2013 and now running 2016. I like it.
I'm not sure software piracy can be fully attributed to why a piece of software comes to dominate the market. I always imagined there were still a lot more paying users than pirate users. Businesses especially need to be careful to have a legitimate paid copy, and there are a lot of businesses using Windows and other popular software. If too many people pirate the software, the company making the software would go out of business. But I have heard anti-piracy is one reason some companies want to go to a model of online use and regular subscription fees. If the user can't physically install the software on their own machine, then they would be forced to pay
On 08-27-18 17:10, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not sure software piracy can be fully attributed to why a piece of software comes to dominate the market. I always imagined there were
still a lot more paying users than pirate users. Businesses especially need to be careful to have a legitimate paid copy, and there are a lot
of businesses using Windows and other popular software. If too many
people pirate the software, the company making the software would go
out of business. But I have heard anti-piracy is one reason some companies want to go to a model of online use and regular subscription fees. If the user can't physically install the software on their own machine, then they would be forced to pay to use it online.
Free software is even easier to copy and use, since you don't have to worry about paying for it. Though, there are companies (such as Red
Hat) that offer paid commercial support for some Linux distros, which
some companies actually do pay for. I think part of the reason is they
consider it worth paying for someone else to continually patch and
update the OS so it's updated and protected against the latest security threats, etc.
On 08-27-18 17:11, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I remember reading that LibreOffice is a fork of OpenOffice, made by a group who wanted more or different features, perhaps faster than the OpenOffice team could provide.
On 08-27-18 19:47, Hawkeye wrote to Nightfox <=-
That is a Home Premium subscription, which is valid for 5 PCs/5 Macs
and unlimited iOS and Android devices. 5 users also have 1 TB OneDrive.
I share the account with my wife, parents and sister/brother-in-law. I have PCs and Macs... so... for me it's a no brainer. Also, always up-to-date... I started with 2010/2013 and now running 2016. I like it.
But think about it from a different perspective. Users pirate Windows at school/university, then get a job, and they bring this Windows idea to the workplace. Company looks and thinks it's a good idea and then decides they'd better purchase it. I'm sure that's how it happened in some smaller businesses. Larger companies would have more likely been courted by sales execs who convinced them they needed Windows to boost their productivity. :)
$6.99 is the single seat, I believe. It costs us $9.99 for a 5 seat subscription.
I get Office 365 free of charge (legally), so I use Office for that reason, and all the reasons you listed above.
I just checked the price I paid.. not 12x9.99 USD but 1 time 85 USD. Legally. I don't auto renew. I use this for the 3rd year I think. Many webshops offer this at least in the Netherlands.up-to-date... I started with 2010/2013 and now running 2016. I like it.Yep, correct. I think I'm using 3 licenses of my 5 ATM. :) And yes, I like Office365. I've had several updates over the past few years.
On 08-28-18 09:36, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yeah, I can see how that would work.
Hawkeye wrote to Chai <=-
Here in NL you can buy legal the 5 user version for 85 USD (73 euros) which is a bargain for me as we have PCs, Macs, iOS, android devices.
Not to mention that's how Windows came to dominate the world - millions of pirated copies of Windows 3.x. :)
I remember reading that LibreOffice is a fork of OpenOffice, made by a group who wanted more or different features, perhaps faster than the OpenOffice team could provide.
Re: Re: Article: Family computers
By: Vk3jed to Clifra Jones on Tue Aug 28 2018 07:11 am
Not to mention that's how Windows came to dominate the world - millions of pirated copies of Windows 3.x. :)
Lots of free copies of SDKs meant lots of Windows developers. Getting an OS/2 SDK took a s-ton of red tape.
Not to mention that's how Windows came to dominate the world -
millions of pirated copies of Windows 3.x. :)
Lots of free copies of SDKs meant lots of Windows developers. Getting an OS/2 SDK took a s-ton of red tape.
On 08-29-18 10:03, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Not to mention that's how Windows came to dominate the world - millions of pirated copies of Windows 3.x. :)
Lots of free copies of SDKs meant lots of Windows developers. Getting
an OS/2 SDK took a s-ton of red tape.
Lots of free copies of SDKs meant lots of Windows developers.
Getting an OS/2 SDK took a s-ton of red tape.
Sounds like a good marketing strategy on the part of Microsoft.
On 08-29-18 12:48, Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Lots of free copies of SDKs meant lots of Windows developers. Getting an OS/2 SDK took a s-ton of red tape.
That was probably a big mistake. An OS needs plenty of good software written for it in order for users to want to use the OS. Also, I had
heard that since OS/2 was able to run Windows 3.x software, developers tended to write their apps for Windows so it could run on both
platforms, and that helped Windows become more popular.
NIGHTFOX wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-Planned obsolecence that forces people to buy a new computer over time?
I wish Windows still kept its settings in .ini files rather than the registry. It seems that the registry is one thing that can keep growing and growing and become corrupted over the years with software installs
& un-installs, and ends up contributing to the machine becoming slower
and other problems over time.
I wish Windows still kept its settings in .ini files rather than the
registry. It seems that the registry is one thing that can keep
growing and growing and become corrupted over the years with
software installs & un-installs, and ends up contributing to the
machine becoming slower and other problems over time.
Planned obsolecence that forces people to buy a new computer over time?
On 08-26-18 16:54, Nightfox wrote to Chai <=-
@VIA: VERT/DIGDIST
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Chai to Jagossel on Sat Aug 25 2018 10:05 pm
Month to month subscription models are kind of nice, because you can choose to pay for it only on the months you need it.
I'd think it might be a bit of a hassle sometimes though. I have Microsoft Office, but I only use it occasionally. I might use it once and then again months later. I'd rather not have to to go pay $5 again just to be able to use it again a couple times. I just want to be able to open the software and use it. Having to go online and pay again also would mean it would rely on me having an interenet connection. I might be using a laptop somewhere where I don't have access to wi-fi.
The subscription auto renews and the software is installed on your PC. I don't know how often it "phones home" to check the subscription is valid. Updates have been smooth too. I was originally using OpenOffice, but I had to edit an old Word document that the free suites (including GSuite) couldn't format correctly, so I subscribed to Office365. I've also found the 1TB OneDrive to be handy. Now, a few years down the track, the free suites seem to handle .docx files perfectly, as well as .xlsx, but I'm not sure how compatible they are for the older .doc format, which was the one giving trouble.
... Swimming: the worse you are at it, the more exercise you get.
Re: Re: Article: Family computers
On 09-11-18 06:19, Digdug wrote to Vk3jed <=-
... Swimming: the worse you are at it, the more exercise you get.
Great line: the worse you are at it, the more excercise you get. ..well said Vk
My old Pentium 4 box from 2002 got real stale around 2008. 1gb of ramPlanned obsolecence that forces people to buy a new computer over time?
You don't have to buy a new computer just to fix that.. You can just re-install Windows.
You don't have to buy a new computer just to fix that.. You can just
re-install Windows.
My old Pentium 4 box from 2002 got real stale around 2008. 1gb of ram
was way too little for most applications after 6 years.
On 09-17-18 17:12, Nightfox wrote to Matthew Munson <=-
You can add RAM. But I suppose after that time, you might start
wanting to just buy a whole new PC. That said, my current desktop PC
is about that old.. I built it in 2011 (I upgraded the processor and
put in an SSD a year later), and it still works just fine for what I
do. I've thought about building or buying a new desktop PC, but I
still don't feel much need to.
You can add RAM. But I suppose after that time, you might start wanting to just buy a whole new PC. That said, my current desktop PC is about that old..The box capped out at 1gb of ram. :(
I built it in 2011 (I upgraded the processor and put in an SSD a year later),
and it still works just fine for what I do. I've thought about building or buying a new desktop PC, but I still don't feel much need to.
I had a real propritary box where when the power switch wore out it was basically useless. Proporitary mother boards suck.
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Matthew Munson to NIGHTFOX on Sat Nov 10 2018 04:13 am
I had a real propritary box where when the power switch wore out it basically useless. Proporitary mother boards suck.
you could have rigged something. the pins for the power connector can accept a switch of some sort.
Re: Article: Family computers
By: Matthew Munson to NIGHTFOX on Sat Nov 10 2018 04:13 am
I had a real propritary box where when the power switch wore out it basically useless. Proporitary mother boards suck.
you could have rigged something. the pins for the power connector can accept a switch of some sort.
My PC that has windows on it, it's a generic pc, i built it a while ago.
But the power switch doesn't work to turn it on, yet it works to put it
to sleep or turn it off. I can turn it on sometimes if I make the power
cord arc a bit. I don't know what's going on.
Re: RE: Article: Family computers
Re: RE: Article: Family computers
By: MRO to apam on Tue Nov 13 2018 05:15 pm
Re: RE: Article: Family computers
Yes. Getting a new power supply may not be a bad idea.
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