I was talking with people about our first computers and stuff and it's interesting to see that we don't always have the same path.

Myself, I must say I've started early. Was borrowing a TRS-80 Model I, when
the Trs-80 Color Computer got out it was a no brainer, got it with 16k or ram and extended basic. Was my main system for a long time and stayed faithful to the brand for a long time, getting a modem and almost all the extension they had to it, went to 64k, floppy disk, mouse, voice pak, serial port etc, you name it. Even got another coco to run a bbs on it. Upgraded to a COCO3 and
kept at it until Tandy dropped it to go all ibm compatible.

Wasn't really a PC fan, finding them klunky, graphic was even lagging compared to my coco3. CGA with 4 ugly colour? coun't me out. Mac was out but bw ?
nahhhh

Really got seduced by the Amiga, crazy graphics and sound for the time,
nothing could display 320X240 with 4096 colour all at once, this could.
640X480 with 16 colours. A lot of games where available for it and eventually you could even emulate a PC and run mac apps with an expension card to only
the mac bios. That was perfect.

With work and eventual Commodore demise I've reluctantly switched to PC.

Around 2013 out of curiosity, i've got a imac 27 inches, it was a system i
was more of less familiar with and never looked back. It remind me of an Amiga a bit. With boot-camp and parallel i can boot or virtualize windows and linux so it's like i have the best of all the worlds.

What's your story ?

---
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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41 am

Really got seduced by the Amiga, crazy graphics and sound for the time, nothing could display 320X240 with 4096 colour all at once, this could. 640X480 with 16 colours. A lot of games where available for it and eventually you could even emulate a PC and run mac apps with an expension card to only the mac bios. That was perfect.

I rarely saw an Amiga at all when I was growing up. I saw some maybe once and I thought they were interesting.

What's your story ?

I grew up mostly using IBM-compatible PCs since that's what most people seemed to have. And my school had some Apple 2 computers that we played games on most. Later, my schools were using Macs, which I thought were nice computers. My first computer at home was a hand-me-down home-built PC with a 286 and a monochrome graphics card. I've pretty much stuck with PCs, which I still use. I've had a couple Macs as secondary computers but I never really got to like Apple much.

Nightfox

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I grew up mostly using IBM-compatible PCs since that's what most people seemed to have. And my school had some Apple 2 computers that we played games on most. Later, my schools were using Macs, which I thought were
nice computers. My first computer at home was a hand-me-down home-built PC with a 286 and a monochrome graphics card. I've pretty much stuck with
PCs, which I still use. I've had a couple Macs as secondary computers but I never really got to like Apple much.

Well nothing wrong with PC, we can all brag which platform was better than another and it would never end. Thing is that in the small town I grew up
there was one electronic store, a Radio Shack. So was kind of natural to go that way, was before pc anyway. Only thing I didn't liked when I had to was to program assembler on the 8086 model, coming from machine with Motorola cpu and Z80 the memory model was frustrating.

When Amiga where the odd beast, I just because I was buying a lot of magazines and my father was in commercial design and sign that the graphic aspect got to me. Actually I heard recently that more Amigas where sold in Canada (where I'm from) then in the entire USA, but they where big in Europe where the where selling millions as game machines.

Computer are like Beers I guess you get used to you brand. As long as they do what you want them to there nothing wrong with that.

Diversity is good.

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Nightfox on Tue Oct 10 2017 03:20 pm

thought were nice computers. My first computer at home was a
hand-me-down home-built PC with a 286 and a monochrome graphics card.
I've pretty much stuck with PCs, which I still use. I've had a couple
Macs as secondary computers but I never really got to like Apple much.

Well nothing wrong with PC, we can all brag which platform was better than another and it would never end. Thing is that in the small town I grew up

I wasn't bragging if that's what you are suggesting, I was just stating what I had at the time. Back then I actually thought the Apple and Amiga were ahead of the others for having a GUI, although I suppose I felt like the PC did the job well enough. And it always seemed to me that the technically best products were not the ones that sold the most. It seemed that was up to marketing (at least as one factor). Perhaps the Mac and Amiga were both more expensive than IBM PCs too. Also, I thought OS/2 was technically better than Windows, but it was Windows that ended up selling the most and getting the most marketshare. That was perhaps also due to Microsoft's tactics in getting Windows pre-installed on PCs and their rules about what software a PC maker could install, etc..

go that way, was before pc anyway. Only thing I didn't liked when I had to was to program assembler on the 8086 model, coming from machine with Motorola cpu and Z80 the memory model was frustrating.

I wasn't programming back then but I can see what you mean. I think that has changed since then though.

Nightfox

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I wasn't bragging if that's what you are suggesting,

No, no, i was actually the one afraid of being perceived as bragging.

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Also, I thought OS/2 was
technically better than Windows, but it was Windows that ended up selling the most and getting the most marketshare. That was perhaps also due to Microsoft's tactics in getting Windows pre-installed on PCs and their rules about what software a PC maker could install, etc..

Yes, a bit sad, because OS/2 was really a better os. At the end it's not allways the best technology that win.

I wasn't programming back then but I can see what you mean. I think that has changed since then though.

Oh yes, dramatically. with 32 and 64 address space in use now. Under dos and win 95 intel cpu behaved more like a 16 bit machine in memory handling.

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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41 am

I believe I started out on PC's which ran DOS and later Windows 3.1. Of course I was exposed to Apple II, IIGS, and Macintosh early on as they seemed to be all that schools had back then, at lease around here. Windows 95 seemed very different, when I first saw it, but I got used to it. Actually, I think that version of Windows had one of the more simple UIs.

- Y2K: End of the world, brought on by the year 1900.

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Ennev wrote to All <=-

What's your story ?

I first encountered computers at school in 1982, an Apple ][+ that the whold school used. Around that time, I had access to a borrowed Dick Smith VZ-2000, a Z80 based system that had BASIC in ROM, cassette port and simple colour graphics. And a bit after than, the school bought several Apple //es, which were a nice step up.

In 1986, I went to university and had my first contact with the IBM-PC, which was the workhorse for all of our programming and other computing needs. Programming was mostly in Turbo Pascal, which made the transition easy for me, because I was using TP 3 under CP/M on the Apples at school. DOS was similar enough to CP/M for me to get the hang of it, and TP3 on DOS was the same as TP3 on CP/M, except that the DOS version had a couple of extra features (like sound and the ability to introduce delays without calculating timing loops - something I'd later discover, when porting a DOS Morse tutor to CP/M :) ).

From there, I went through the range of PCs from the PC to 286, 386, 486, Pentium, etc. During this period, I built my first PC and started running packet radio, then got into dialup BBSing, both as a user and sysop. Switched to OS/2 in the mid 90s, and started on Linux not long after (in 1995).

Switched to Windows, when OS/2 application support lagged too far behind. Ran Linux desktops at home and work on and off during the early 2000s.

In 2010, I bought my first Mac, a MacBook Pro. Loved it, but it unfortunately died a few years later. Back on Windows now with a desktop. And I'm a big fan of the Raspberry Pi and similar platforms

I've used other systems, like the Amiga, which I loved. The Amiga was ahead of its time, an amazing machine, and it's a real pity it didn't commercially succeed the way it deserved to. Used a number of other machines over the years too, from early microcomputers to mainframes. Most I adapted well to, oddly enough, the Commodore 64 was one I didn't take to, the exception to the rule.


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Ennev wrote to Nightfox <=-

Well nothing wrong with PC, we can all brag which platform was better
than another and it would never end. Thing is that in the small town I grew up there was one electronic store, a Radio Shack. So was kind of natural to go that way, was before pc anyway. Only thing I didn't liked when I had to was to program assembler on the 8086 model, coming from machine with Motorola cpu and Z80 the memory model was frustrating.

Yes, the 8086 memory model was a pain. I did dabble in 8086 assembler at uni, got the hang of it mostly. :) Programming assembler on other processors, like the 6809 or Z80 (what little I did of Z80) was a breeze, by comparison. :)

I got a bit of a flashback to the 8086 when I dabbled in programming a 16F84 PIC, where you have to select the right set of I/O with a register. Maybe my previous experience with the 8086 helped me get my head around it. :)

And I am reminded of an old joke.

Q: "What's the difference between an IBM-PC and a boat anchor?"

A: "Segment registers."


... Sushi: known to the rest of the world as 'Bait'
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Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-

I wasn't bragging if that's what you are suggesting, I was just stating what I had at the time. Back then I actually thought the Apple and
Amiga were ahead of the others for having a GUI, although I suppose I

The Amiga was particularly impressive, with a full colour GUI and impressive audio capabilities. The early Mac was an impressive machine in its day, though I found the Classic MacOS too dumbed down for my liking.

felt like the PC did the job well enough. And it always seemed to me
that the technically best products were not the ones that sold the
most. It seemed that was up to marketing (at least as one factor).

Often, marketing and other human factors outdid technical excellence.

Perhaps the Mac and Amiga were both more expensive than IBM PCs too.
Also, I thought OS/2 was technically better than Windows, but it was Windows that ended up selling the most and getting the most

OS/2 was much more solid than Windows at the time.

marketshare. That was perhaps also due to Microsoft's tactics in
getting Windows pre-installed on PCs and their rules about what
software a PC maker could install, etc..

At the time, Microsoft's sales tactics were a big factor. The death knell for OS/2 for me was the lack of Win32 support. I didn't have the money or space for another PC, otherwise I would have left a dedicated OS/2 one running.

go that way, was before pc anyway. Only thing I didn't liked when I had to was to program assembler on the 8086 model, coming from machine with Motorola cpu and Z80 the memory model was frustrating.

I wasn't programming back then but I can see what you mean. I think
that has changed since then though.

Yes, flat memory model has been used since the 32 bit days.


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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41:19

I was talking with people about our first computers and stuff and it's interesting to see that we don't always have the same path.

What's your story ?

I've started out on a TRS-80 CoCo II at a really young age of about 7
years old (I believe). My parents brought it down from the attic and my dad got it all set up and ready to go. We had a few game cartriges and a couple of joysticks for it. I've learned how to program on it with the guides that my parents had.

My dad gotten an Atari ST to run a packet radio BBS on it, and wasn't successful because of the software he had at the time. He found an IBM-compatible computer and working software for it, and I got the Atari ST afterward. I only played games on it, and did a little bit of programming on it. It was that Atari ST computer that got me into BBSes. As I've mentioned before, I would go onto the 486 and connect to the local computer shop's BBS and just download games for the Atari ST.

After the Atari ST, it was the XT, then 286, then 386, then 486, etc. from here on out.

-jag
Code it, Script It, Automate it!

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What's your story ?

Got exposed to a Tandy on a school trip. Thought it was neat I could make
it do things. Got a TI-99/4A a short while later. Was addicted to it for
a while... was not great at programming myself, but did learn a few things
by copying the code out of the 99'er magazines and (sometimes) making alterations or bug fixes myself.

Stopped computing for a while, then got an 8088-XT. To be honest, I am not sure I would have been real interested in it until I discovered BBSing. :)

Now I am in IT, and have been for over 20 years. That part may have been a mistake. :)

---
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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41 am

Windows
95 seemed very different, when I first saw it, but I got used to it. Actually, I think that version of Windows had one of the more simple UIs.

Windows 95 was a game changer, I remember how much it was expected. Here in Montreal when it got released people where waiting in line like if it was an iPhone release to have a chance to get the first copy of it.

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the Commodore 64 was one I didn't take to,
the exception to the rule.

I must that here I was a snob too. Was looking down on the C64 the day I saw a basic listing for it in a magazine and saw that it was essentially just a sequence of peek and poke. Hear that in assembly it was fun to program for the 6502 been a great cpu. But was still doing basic then with a coco where doing graphic in basic was convenient.

But the C64 got a lot of people into personal computing, have to give it that.

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Wed Oct 11 2017 01:20 pm

At the time, Microsoft's sales tactics were a big factor. The death knell for OS/2 for me was the lack of Win32 support. I didn't have the money or space for another PC, otherwise I would have left a dedicated OS/2 one running.

I remember an add-on for Windows 3.1 called Win32S which I think added some 32-bit support to Windows 3.1. I don't remember if Win32S worked with OS/2's Windows subsystem though.. And I imagine Win32S still wasn't enough to run 32-bit programs that most people wanted to run though. Certainly not Windows 95 apps..

Nightfox

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Re: Win 95
By: Ennev to Mr. Cool on Wed Oct 11 2017 10:59 am

Windows 95 was a game changer, I remember how much it was expected. Here in Montreal when it got released people where waiting in line like if it was an iPhone release to have a chance to get the first copy of it.

I think it was like that everywhere. I heard about people lining up here for a copy of Windows 95. That was the only time I can remember people lining up outside stores like that for a Microsoft product. At the time, I think Apple was almost dead.. Once Steve Jobs was brought back to Apple, they started making products that people would line up for outside stores. (For the record, I've never gone out to stand in line like that for any computer product, no matter how excited I was for it.)

Nightfox

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Ennev wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I must that here I was a snob too. Was looking down on the C64 the day
I saw a basic listing for it in a magazine and saw that it was
essentially just a sequence of peek and poke. Hear that in assembly it
was fun to program for the 6502 been a great cpu. But was still doing basic then with a coco where doing graphic in basic was convenient.

I think it was the way its BASIC worked that defied my sense of logic. I'm one of those people who forms a working mental model of systems, and the C64 was hard for me to model, unlike just about any other BASIC micro of the day, that I could pick up and make do something, much to the joy of a salesman at a PC show in the 1980s, when I got one of his "Brand X" micros to put on a nice little display after a few minutes of playing with its on board BASIC. I recall the commands used to save and load files from disk were piticularly bizarre.

But the C64 got a lot of people into personal computing, have to give
it that.

Yes, it did. The C64 did have quite good sound and graphics capabilities for the day, and was a popular choice for gaming.


... My opinions are my own; mistakes are the computer's fault.
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Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I remember an add-on for Windows 3.1 called Win32S which I think added

Yes, I used to run it myself when I had Windows for Workgroups 3.11 loaded.

some 32-bit support to Windows 3.1. I don't remember if Win32S worked with OS/2's Windows subsystem though.. And I imagine Win32S still

I don't think it did, but not 100% sure.

wasn't enough to run 32-bit programs that most people wanted to run though. Certainly not Windows 95 apps..

Yes, it was very limited. Windows 95 had a much more comprehensive 32 bit API.


... What if someone's real name is a psuedonym??
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Dumas Walker wrote to ENNEV <=-

Got exposed to a Tandy on a school trip. Thought it was neat I could
make it do things. Got a TI-99/4A a short while later. Was addicted
to it for a while... was not great at programming myself, but did learn
a few things by copying the code out of the 99'er magazines and (sometimes) making alterations or bug fixes myself.

Ahh, the old "Trash-80", as they were affectionately known. Another significant machine, which started many an IT career. :) Tandy had a number of good computers on the market back in the 80s.

Stopped computing for a while, then got an 8088-XT. To be honest, I am not sure I would have been real interested in it until I discovered BBSing. :)

I went through a lull, until I discovered BBSing and networking, which got me back into computer. I spent 15 years in IT, and while I'm glad to be out of it, I don't regret it either.

Now I am in IT, and have been for over 20 years. That part may have
been a mistake. :)

:-)


... Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-

Windows 95 was a game changer, I remember how much it was expected. Here in Montreal when it got released people where waiting in line like if it was an iPhone release to have a chance to get the first copy of it.

I think that was pretty common around the world. Coming from OS/2, I found Win 95 a bit disappointing. :) I actually first encountered Win95 at a workplace, before getting it at home.

I think it was like that everywhere. I heard about people lining up
here for a copy of Windows 95. That was the only time I can remember people lining up outside stores like that for a Microsoft product. At

Win95 was a long time coming and much anticipated.

the time, I think Apple was almost dead.. Once Steve Jobs was brought back to Apple, they started making products that people would line up
for outside stores. (For the record, I've never gone out to stand in
line like that for any computer product, no matter how excited I was
for it.)

Neither have I. The closest I've come is buying an original iPad on the afternoon of the day they were released here. But there were no queues at the store, just walked in, made the purchase and walked out with an iPad. :)


... People who live in stone houses shouldn't throw glasses.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Vk3jed on Wed Oct 11 2017 11:15 am

the Commodore 64 was one I didn't take to,
the exception to the rule.

I must that here I was a snob too. Was looking down on the C64 the day I saw a basic listing for it in a magazine and saw that it was essentially just a sequence of peek and poke. Hear that in assembly it was fun to program for the 6502 been a great cpu. But was still doing basic then with a coco where doing graphic in basic was convenient.

But the C64 got a lot of people into personal computing, have to give it that.

my uncle had a c64 and he was online with it in chat rooms and booking airplane tickets and it had some cool games too.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Wed Oct 11 2017 09:36 am

I remember an add-on for Windows 3.1 called Win32S which I think added some 32-bit support to Windows 3.1. I don't remember if Win32S worked with OS/2's Windows subsystem though.. And I imagine Win32S still wasn't enough to run 32-bit programs that most people wanted to run though. Certainly not Windows 95 apps..

it wasnt so hot. worked with a few things.
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Re: Win 95
By: Nightfox to Ennev on Wed Oct 11 2017 09:40 am

I think it was like that everywhere. I heard about people lining up here for a copy of Windows 95. That was the only time I can remember people lining up outside stores like that for a Microsoft product. At the time, I think Apple was almost dead.. Once Steve Jobs was brought back to Apple, they started making products that people would line up for outside stores. (For the record, I've never gone out to stand in line like that for any computer product, no matter how excited I was for it.)

Nightfox

i had it reserved at software ect and they told me to come get it in 30 mins or they would sell it. it was 13 disks.
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Re: Win 95
By: Ennev to Mr. Cool on Wed Oct 11 2017 10:59 am

Windows 95 was a game changer, I remember how much it was expected. Here in Montreal when it got released people where waiting in line like if it was an iPhone release to have a chance to get the first copy of it.

It really was a better interface. As much as I don't mind Program Manager, it seems more efficient to have icons on the desktop like Mac OS, Amiga Workbench, or GEM. You could still access your other apps via the Start Menu. This new interface was aparently so good that they still can't get away with getting rid of it about 20 years later.

- Mr. Cool

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Re: Win 95
By: Mr. Cool to Ennev on Wed Oct 11 2017 04:12 pm

It really was a better interface. As much as I don't mind Program Manager, it seems more efficient to have icons on the desktop like Mac OS, Amiga Workbench, or GEM. You could still access your other apps via the Start Menu. This new interface was aparently so good that they still can't get away with getting rid of it about 20 years later.

I liked the Windows 95 interface, but one thing I thought was at least somewhat useful in Program Manager was that you could create program groups for your shortcuts. You could have groups for Games, Utilities, etc.. Starting with Windows 95, you just have icons on the desktop and/or icons in folders in the Start menu.

Nightfox

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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 12:41 pm

What's your story ?

Started off young with an Atari 800XL that I got for my fifth birthday. No
disk drive, not even a cassette drive. Got a couple of cartridges for it to play, but that was about it. My father had a source somewhere who'd lend him issues of "Compute!" magazine (I think it was), and I'd type out the programs from it, up until I got told to get off the TV and let someone else use it. This happened a lot: they were long programs and I was not a fast typist.

It was not until a couple of years later that we found a computer store in a shopping center on the other side of town that would lend out Atari disks. I'd gotten a 1050 drive by then--Atari's "enhanced density" 5 1/4" drive, but still single-sided disks that you'd sometimes have to turn over. So that was a whole new level of experiences.

I didn't get into actual serious programming until quite a while later, by which point the Atari was mostly gathering dust in my bedroom and my father had gotten his second IBM compatible. My whole family had been into BBSing by that point. We got CompuServe for a while, and I remember getting busted for sitting around in their chatrooms ("CB" is what they called it, because "chat room" was too exotic a techie term, I guess) and running up a huge bill. I remember playing Trade Wars 2002 on one of the systems, and downloading it and, eventually, writing a short assembly program to help automate running the daily maintenance on it so it'd work right on our home computer. This was a serious program of something like 30 lines of assembly code, but all original. Got to start somewhere.

Eventually it was off to school, and inheriting a hand-me-down computer from my uncle, and then learning to navigate Unix, and then getting the, "You should try this new thing called 'Linux,' it's pretty cool" speech from that same uncle, and it just kind of went on from there.
---
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Re: Win 95
By: Mr. Cool to Ennev on Wed Oct 11 2017 04:12 pm

Windows 95 was a game changer, I remember how much it was expected.
Here in Montreal when it got released people where waiting in line
like if it was an iPhone release to have a chance to get the first
copy of it.

To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

"... ASCII stupid question - get a stupid ANSI"

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Wed Oct 11 2017 09:36 am

I remember an add-on for Windows 3.1 called Win32S which I think added some 32-bit support to Windows 3.1. I don't remember if Win32S worked with OS/2's Windows subsystem though.. And I imagine Win32S still wasn't enough to run 32-bit programs that most people wanted to run though. Certainly not Windows 95 apps..

I remember that so well that I can still remember the filename.
PW1118.EXE the Win32S installer. First thing I downloaded onto a
computer when I had Win 3.1 installed, then Trumpet Winsock and
probably Mosaic or Cello web browser.

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The first computer I ever used was a Northgate 386 that my dad bought in 1989 or so. I've used a succession of PCs ever since, though for a time, I also ran some old 68K Macs that were being tossed out by my school.

My favorite systems was probably the Zeos 386 laptop that was my primary writing tool back in high school (I would type up my papers in WordPerfect 5.1, print them to a PostScript file and then sneakernet the file to my Dad's Linux box which had the laser printer attached). It was black and white only and had only 4 MB of RAM but it was mine and I could carry it around!

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Re: Win 95
By: Roadhog to Mr. Cool on Wed Oct 11 2017 10:51 pm

To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

Yes, Windows 95 still had a win.com that could be run from a DOS prompt to start up Windows. And Windows 95 could be configured to just boot up to a DOS prompt without starting Windows, from what I remember..

Nightfox

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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41 am

What's your story ?

Started off with a Commodore 64, then while trying to use it in 80 column mode dialed into my school computers, ditched it and convinced my parents to buy me an XT clone; with it I could write code locally on my PC instead of going into the computer labs or dialing in. Did most of my coding with Microsoft Quick C, then Turbo Pascal.

I bought a 1200 baud modem when they still made components in Silicon Valley and started calling BBSes. I received the inaugural $150 phone bill (a lot of money back then) calling zone 3 local toll BBSes.

That XT kept me going for some time, then I bought a 286 motherboard at a local computer fair and did my first mobo swap. Later, soldered a faster crystal on the motherboard without having a clue of what I was doing, but I ended up with a 12 mhz AT.

10 megabytes of disk space wasn't cutting it any more, so I picked up a RLL controller and reformatted the drive for 16 megabytes. I was delirious with the newfound space for 3 months, then bought a 30 megabyte drive. This cycle has repeated itself several times.

After school, I found myself working a job where new systems were bought on a whim and left in a closet. I was given an IBM Store Controller (a rugged IBM AT) and used it for the first BBS box.

The BBS has continued to this day on cast off hardware - first a 386SX in a tiny deskop box, then a monster 486 server in a case that could double as an end table, another 486, then a Celeron, a PIII, and now on a cast-off laptop.

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Re: Introduction to computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Ennev on Thu Oct 12 2017 10:21 am

10 megabytes of disk space wasn't cutting it any more, so I picked up a RLL controller and reformatted the drive for 16 megabytes. I was delirious with the newfound space for 3 months, then bought a 30 megabyte drive.

I heard RLL was just an encoding scheme which worked on MFM drives, so RLL didn't actually require a different controller, just a drive reliable enough to handle RLL encoding.

Nightfox

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To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface

Yeah, but, at least for MS-DOS and Windows, it was the
first time the GUI was actually like the modern GUI we use
today. And since I think by that point Windowa had already
become, or was about to be, the dominant platform, it was a
big deal.

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Nelgin wrote to Nightfox <=-

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on
Wed Oct 11 2017 09:36 am

I remember an add-on for Windows 3.1 called Win32S which I think added some 32-bit support to Windows 3.1. I don't remember if Win32S worked with OS/2's Windows subsystem though.. And I imagine Win32S still wasn't enough to run 32-bit programs that most people wanted to run though. Certainly not Windows 95 apps..

I remember that so well that I can still remember the filename.
PW1118.EXE the Win32S installer. First thing I downloaded onto a
computer when I had Win 3.1 installed, then Trumpet Winsock and
probably Mosaic or Cello web browser.

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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I heard RLL was just an encoding scheme which worked on MFM drives, so
RLL didn't actually require a different controller, just a drive
reliable enough to handle RLL encoding.

That's correct. RLL used the same drives, but it was meant to be used on drives certified to handle RLL. If you used it on any old MFM drive, it could be unreliable, though many people did it with no problems.


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Nightfox wrote to Roadhog <=-

Yes, Windows 95 still had a win.com that could be run from a DOS prompt
to start up Windows. And Windows 95 could be configured to just boot
up to a DOS prompt without starting Windows, from what I remember..

Yes, it was easy to make Windows 9x boot to DOS. And Windows boot floppies did exactly that by default.


... I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem.
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Pparker wrote to Roadhog <=-

Yeah, but, at least for MS-DOS and Windows, it was the
first time the GUI was actually like the modern GUI we use
today. And since I think by that point Windowa had already
become, or was about to be, the dominant platform, it was a
big deal.

Windows 95's user interface was a big improvement over Windows 3.x. I took to it pretty easily.


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Re: Win 95
By: Pparker to Roadhog on Fri Oct 13 2017 01:30 am

today. And since I think by that point Windowa had already
become, or was about to be, the dominant platform, it was a
big deal.

From what I remember, Windows was already a fairly big thing by Windows 3.1 (or even 3.0). Other GUIs existed at the time (OS/2, GeoWorks, etc.) but had a hard time gaining marketshare compared to Windows.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Win 95
By: Vk3jed to Pparker on Fri Oct 13 2017 09:07 pm

Windows 95's user interface was a big improvement over Windows 3.x. I took to it pretty easily.

Yeah, I liked Windows 95's interface.

I never really used Windows prior to 3.0, and I think it's funny to look at some of the screenshots of Windows 1.x and 2.x. They had an "MS-DOS Executive", which I think sounds funny for some reason.. Running a GUI environment and then having a "MS-DOS Executive"? And early versions of Windows didn't allow overlapping windows.. I heard Apple and Microsoft were arguing over a patent on that or something (and of course, Apple lost that argument).

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Nightfox on Tue Oct 10 2017 18:07:15

Also, I thought OS/2 was
technically better than Windows, but it was Windows that ended up selling the most and getting the most marketshare. That was perhaps also due to Microsoft's tactics in getting Windows pre-installed on PCs and their rul about what software a PC maker could install, etc..

Yes, a bit sad, because OS/2 was really a better os. At the end it's not allways the best technology that win.

I wasn't programming back then but I can see what you mean. I think that has changed since then though.

Oh yes, dramatically. with 32 and 64 address space in use now. Under dos and win 95 intel cpu behaved more like a 16 bit machine in memory handling.

ok...I tried to split this text so I can insert text between some lines but I'll figure it out later so about the best technology that doesnt win its kinda true. Look at apple today. its a very simple system and UI...very very simple. Its meant for idiots in a sense (no pun intended) compared to windows or linux. But again, that term can be very relative. What makes an os better ? how its made under the hood or the presentation or the UI in the OS. I don't know anything about OS/2 but I'd like to know what made it better.

mhh, I have emulators here so maybe I could mess around with it

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Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Windows 95's user interface was a big improvement over Windows 3.x. I took to it pretty easily.

Yeah, I liked Windows 95's interface.

Me too.

I never really used Windows prior to 3.0, and I think it's funny to
look at some of the screenshots of Windows 1.x and 2.x. They had an "MS-DOS Executive", which I think sounds funny for some reason..
Running a GUI environment and then having a "MS-DOS Executive"? And
early versions of Windows didn't allow overlapping windows.. I heard Apple and Microsoft were arguing over a patent on that or something
(and of course, Apple lost that argument).

I did play with 1.0 and 2.0, only out of curiosity (was already running 3.x by then).


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Nightfox wrote to Pparker <=-

From what I remember, Windows was already a fairly big thing by Windows 3.1 (or even 3.0). Other GUIs existed at the time (OS/2, GeoWorks,
etc.) but had a hard time gaining marketshare compared to Windows.

Yes, Windows 3.x is when Windows took off.


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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Ennev on Wed Oct 11 2017 01:11 pm

Yes, the 8086 memory model was a pain. I did dabble in 8086 assembler at uni, got the hang of it mostly. :) Programming assembler on other processors, like the 6809 or Z80 (what little I did of Z80) was a breeze, by comparison. :)

I did my assembly on a VAX. Nice instruction set, easy memory handling. :)

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Bigbangnet to Ennev on Fri Oct 13 2017 09:32 pm

What makes an os better ? how its made under the hood or the presentation or the UI in the OS. I don't know anything about OS/2 but I'd like to know what made it better.

OS/2 had very good multi-tasking. It probably had pre-emptive multi-tasking while Windows 3.1 had cooperative multi-tasking (though you shouldn't quote me on that). People have (almost jokingly) said OS/2 was the best platform to run DOS software because it was able to multi-task DOS very well. Many sysops used OS/2 to run multi-node BBSes. Also, not really for OS/2 itself, but there was a serial port driver for OS/2 called SIO which I remember being fairly popular. I seem to remember SIO including a built-in FOSSIL driver and being able to allow DOS BBS software and doors to be accessible on the internet via telnet.

Nightfox

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Re: Win 95
By: Nightfox to Roadhog on Thu Oct 12 2017 09:53 am

Re: Win 95
By: Roadhog to Mr. Cool on Wed Oct 11 2017 10:51 pm

To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

Yes, Windows 95 still had a win.com that could be run from a DOS prompt to start up Windows. And Windows 95 could be configured to just boot up to a D prompt without starting Windows, from what I remember..

Nightfox

It's a common misconception that Windows 9x was just running on top of DOS as Windows 3.1 did. When I did a little reading I found out that once DOS and it's drivers loaded, Windows would start and take a snapshot of the current DOS state, then proceed to shutdown DOS. If a DOS function was needed, it was able to call up that snapshot to use it's DOS sub-system.

- Mr. Cool

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on that). People have (almost jokingly) said OS/2 was the best platform to run
DOS software because it was able to multi-task DOS very well. Many sysops used
OS/2 to run multi-node BBSes. Also, not really for OS/2 itself, but there was >a serial port driver for OS/2 called SIO which I remember being fairly popular.
I seem to remember SIO including a built-in FOSSIL driver and being able to >allow DOS BBS software and doors to be accessible on the internet via telnet.

You have basically described my DOS BBS setup, until just recently when I
moved it under dosemu. OS/2 with SIO/VMODEM was the way to go until the
script kiddies started crashing SIO.

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It really was a better interface. As much as I don't mind Program Manager, it seems more efficient to have icons on the desktop like Mac OS, Amiga Workbench, or GEM. You could still access your other apps via the Start Menu. This new interface was aparently so good that they still can't get away with getting rid of it about 20 years later.

Yes, the ui was much nicer to look at than windows 3.11 and tcp/ip and socket where part of the os instead of a side piece of software you had to glue to like trumpet winsock and so on.

Make it more an "internet" os and that probably what was the game changer.

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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I did my assembly on a VAX. Nice instruction set, easy memory handling.

Never touched one. I think the 6809 was my favourite back in the day, really easy to program in assembler. :)


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Nightfox wrote to Bigbangnet <=-

OS/2 had very good multi-tasking. It probably had pre-emptive

OS/2 had preemptive multitasking. There was also cooperative multitasking, as it is possible to detect when DOS programs are sitting idle waiting for input in many cases.

multi-tasking while Windows 3.1 had cooperative multi-tasking (though
you shouldn't quote me on that). People have (almost jokingly) said

Windows 3.1 was cooperative for Windows apps, but for DOS, it did preemptively multitask, since it's not 100% reliable to detect when a DOS app is doing nothing (polling loops are notorious for this).

OS/2 was the best platform to run DOS software because it was able to multi-task DOS very well. Many sysops used OS/2 to run multi-node
BBSes. Also, not really for OS/2 itself, but there was a serial port

Or simply run a BBS on a non dedicated machine. OS/2 allowed one to do other things, without compromising overall performance and with great stability.

driver for OS/2 called SIO which I remember being fairly popular. I
seem to remember SIO including a built-in FOSSIL driver and being able
to allow DOS BBS software and doors to be accessible on the internet
via telnet.

SIO was awesome, and started the first wave of telnet BBSs. :)


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My dad gotten an Atari ST to run a packet radio BBS on it, and wasn't successful because of the software he had at the time. He found an IBM-compatible computer and working software for it, and I got the Atari ST afterward. I only played games on it, and did a little bit of programming
on it. It was that Atari ST computer that got me into BBSes. As I've mentioned before, I would go onto the 486 and connect to the local computer shop's BBS and just download games for the Atari ST.

Was the ST format compatible with a PC? 31/2 drive on amiga would use a different encoding that would give 880K instead of 720, you had to find a converter software (not included) to be able to read ibm disks. Was a paint in the ....

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Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-

The Amiga was particularly impressive, with a full colour GUI and
impressive audio capabilities. The early Mac was an impressive machine in its day, though I found the Classic MacOS too dumbed down for my liking.

Yes MacOS was really intended I guess to be something simple enough to be used by anybody, but it meant that you had very little control and flexibility.

I see it like today ChromeOS or iOS.

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I'd gotten a 1050 drive by then--Atari's "enhanced density" 5 1/4"
drive, but still single-sided disks that you'd sometimes have to turn over. So that was a whole new level of experiences.

Was kind of the same on TRS-80, disk where single sided, but you could but a "notcher" so you could filp the disk around and use both side :-D

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To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

That was it was, a dos apps that would boot in a way where you think it
wasn't. Was much better looking than 3.1 but still had the same limitations in many ways.

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Re: Win 95
By: Mr. Cool to Nightfox on Sun Oct 15 2017 10:28 am

It's a common misconception that Windows 9x was just running on top of DOS as Windows 3.1 did. When I did a little reading I found out that once DOS and it's drivers loaded, Windows would start and take a snapshot of the current DOS state, then proceed to shutdown DOS. If a DOS function was needed, it was able to call up that snapshot to use it's DOS sub-system.

Shut down DOS? What does that mean? And I remember being able to exit from Windows 9x and get back to a DOS prompt (without Windows running), and you could even have it boot just to a DOS prompt without Windows.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Oct 16 2017 12:11 pm

Or simply run a BBS on a non dedicated machine. OS/2 allowed one to do other things, without compromising overall performance and with great stability.

It's nice to be able to do that. I tend to prefer running my BBS on a dedicated machine though. I used to run my BBS in a virtual machine on my main PC, but when I needed to reboot my main PC for any reason, that meant taking down my BBS for a few minutes while my PC rebooted.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Jagossel on Mon Oct 16 2017 09:19:14

My dad gotten an Atari ST to run a packet radio BBS on it, and wasn't successful because of the software he had at the time. He found an IBM-compatible computer and working software for it, and I got the Atari

ST

afterward. I only played games on it, and did a little bit of programming on it. It was that Atari ST computer that got me into BBSes. As I've mentioned before, I would go onto the 486 and connect to the local comput

er

shop's BBS and just download games for the Atari ST.

Was the ST format compatible with a PC? 31/2 drive on amiga would use a different encoding that would give 880K instead of 720, you had to find a converter software (not included) to be able to read ibm disks. Was a paint

in

the ....

That was the odd thing about the Atari ST, you could format a disk on the IBM PC and use it on the Atari ST, but not the other way around.

That's how I was able to get the software that I downloaded from a BBS to the Atari ST: sneaker-net. <g>

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Mon Oct 16 2017 09:36 am

It's nice to be able to do that. I tend to prefer running my BBS on a dedicated machine though. I used to run my BBS in a virtual machine on my main PC, but when I needed to reboot my main PC for any reason, that meant taking down my BBS for a few minutes while my PC rebooted.

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can afford it. i use proxmox and i bought some ips and i have my bbses and webs running on a cheap server. when i want to backup, i shut them down and download the VM files.

with my windows computers i dont need to do that because i do
automatic rar backups every week and i prefer to do a fresh os install when i redo my systems.

i dont have attackers hitting me at home, and my servers are very strong and fast. i just leave them run and pay the bill once a month.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Oct 16 2017 03:03 pm

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can afford it.

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home, I don't have to pay a fee for the rented server, and the machine is right there for me to access if I want to upgrade it, and I'd think it would be at least slightly easier to do backups with the machine right there for me to access. If power reliability is an issue, I have a UPS power backup on my BBS machine, and my internet box on the house is supported by a battery as well.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Ennev to Morrand on Mon Oct 16 2017 11:44 am

I'd gotten a 1050 drive by then--Atari's "enhanced density" 5 1/4"
drive, but still single-sided disks that you'd sometimes have to turn ove So that was a whole new level of experiences.

Was kind of the same on TRS-80, disk where single sided, but you could but a "notcher" so you could filp the disk around and use both side :-D

Yep. I got a notcher sometime in the early '90s (about the time the last of the Atari stuff was going on clearance sale, really). I probably still have it around here somewhere.

Mine was the deluxe model: it had a unique disk holder feature. Meaning: they molded a couple of fins in the side that were just big enough to wedge a disk into. <g>
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Oct 16 2017 04:47 pm

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Oct 16 2017 03:03 pm

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can afford it.

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home, I

because it's a lot better than running it at home.
you dont get attacks, it's stable, doesnt take up space , doesnt take up power.

and the machine is right
there for me to access if I want to upgrade it, and I'd think it would be at least slightly easier to do backups with the machine right there for me to access. If power reliability is an issue, I have a UPS power backup on my

i can remote desktop in and make any changes i want.
i dont need to upgrade hardware because the hardware is great already.
backups are automated. i even get free space to store my backups.
i have 100% uptime.

it's up to you but really, renting a server is better.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Morrand on Mon Oct 16 2017 10:44 am

Was kind of the same on TRS-80, disk where single sided, but you could but a "notcher" so you could filp the disk around and use both side :-D

I just used a paper punch, then when I moved to a PC I just drilled holes in the 720 3 1/2 floppies.
It worked great but I do not miss floppy disks.

"... Taglines: the toilet-stall walls of BBSdom."

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Oct 16 2017 11:58 pm

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can
afford it.

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home,

because it's a lot better than running it at home.
you dont get attacks, it's stable, doesnt take up space , doesnt take up power.

My BBS machine at home is fairly stable, and it's not a huge PC so it doesn't take up a whole lot of space, and I think its power usage isn't that bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind that.

i dont need to upgrade hardware because the hardware is great already. backups are automated. i even get free space to store my backups.
i have 100% uptime.

I could probably automate backups at home too, I don't need it to be hosted for that. Also I'm using my BBS machine for other things besides just my BBS (I also run a Plex media server on it for my TVs at home), so it helps to have the machine at home.

Nightfox

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Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to All on Tue Oct 10 2017 11:41:19

I had used Apple IIs at school, mostly, and then in '86 got a C64. In the early 90's I lusted after the Amiga, but by the time I'd scrounged enough cash for it, Commodore'd gone out of business, so my "upgrade" became a C128 and later
a C128D. After a few years of that, I managed to snag a Mac, and that's where I've been ever since.

Recently dug my O.G. 1986 64C out of mothballs and suddenly realized that, hey, I'm a grown up and I can damn well buy an Amiga if I want to, so I got an A500. So learning that a bit, though it's a bit of a curve compared to the 64.

D

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Oct 17 2017 09:45 am

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can
afford it.

My BBS machine at home is fairly stable, and it's not a huge PC so it doesn't take up a whole lot of space, and I think its power usage isn't that bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind that.

i guess you'd have to do it to understand it.
i'm loving it.
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On 10/17/17, Nightfox said the following...

i highly suggest running your bbs on a rented server if you can MR>> afford it.

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home,

because it's a lot better than running it at home.
you dont get attacks, it's stable, doesnt take up space , doesnt take power.

My BBS machine at home is fairly stable, and it's not a huge PC so it doesn't take up a whole lot of space, and I think its power usage isn't that bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind
that.

What kind of computer do you have that uses so little energy?

I can't find my kill a watt meter to actually measure how much the computer uses but guesstimating 100 watts 24 hours a day at my rate of .115 per kwh thats $9 a month.

Anyhow, I run mine off a rented server and love it. Reliable, faster
transfer speeds, static IP, no port blocking by the ISP, etc. That said, I would probably run it from home if I had a ups battery backup and my kids
would leave the computer alone. Numerous times I've come home from work and the computer has been shut off, unplugged or tipped over. They crashed a virtualbox VM once by unplugging the computer while it was running.

Immortal

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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Immortal to Nightfox on Tue Oct 17 2017 06:57 pm

Anyhow, I run mine off a rented server and love it. Reliable, faster transfer speeds, static IP, no port blocking by the ISP, etc. That said, I would probably run it from home if I had a ups battery backup and my kids would leave the computer alone. Numerous times I've come home from work and the computer has been shut off, unplugged or tipped over. They crashed a virtualbox VM once by unplugging the computer while it was running.

he probably did the calculation wrong. with a display or two, and if its on all day long it can be about 25 bucks a month.

i dont believe he is using around 7cents a day of electricity on his computer. ---
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MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-

i guess you'd have to do it to understand it.
i'm loving it.

To me, it's more a horses for courses thing. I've had a VPS for many years, which runs a lot of services. But I choose to run BBSs on R-Pi boards at home.
That's actually cheaper for me to do.


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Immortal wrote to Nightfox <=-

What kind of computer do you have that uses so little energy?

I use a Pi. ;)

I can't find my kill a watt meter to actually measure how much the computer uses but guesstimating 100 watts 24 hours a day at my rate of .115 per kwh thats $9 a month.

Anyhow, I run mine off a rented server and love it. Reliable, faster transfer speeds, static IP, no port blocking by the ISP, etc. That
said, I would probably run it from home if I had a ups battery backup
and my kids would leave the computer alone. Numerous times I've come
home from work and the computer has been shut off, unplugged or tipped over. They crashed a virtualbox VM once by unplugging the computer
while it was running.

Yep horses for courses. I don't have kids, so that's a non issue. :)


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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:35 pm

MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-

i guess you'd have to do it to understand it.
i'm loving it.

To me, it's more a horses for courses thing. I've had a VPS for many years, which runs a lot of services. But I choose to run BBSs on R-Pi boards at home.
That's actually cheaper for me to do.

well i have this server that i use for a few things, and the diskspace and the muscle and the memory is there, so i figured why not.

it's not cheaper. i'm not sure how much i'm saving. i pay half the bill and a donator pays the other because i manage hosting for him and other shit.

it's certainly easy and i'm happy with the results.
i did have to pay a friend to setup a linux vm on proxmox with one of my ip addresses because i forgot how to do it. windows is super easy with that.
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Recently dug my O.G. 1986 64C out of mothballs and suddenly realized that, hey, I'm a grown up and I can damn well buy an Amiga if I want to, so I got an A500. So learning that a bit, though it's a bit of a curve compared to the 64.

Commodore bought Amiga, so in a way it's a totally different beast. They where stalling in the development of theirs next generation so they swallowed Amiga to get them there. At one point i hear that Amiga could have been an Atari product.

Like a mac on the day it dosen't even have a text more. Text are rendered.

You can find all the Amiga manual if you need at Archive.org

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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Immortal to Nightfox on Tue Oct 17 2017 06:57 pm

What kind of computer do you have that uses so little energy?

It's just a regular home-built PC tower. It's a fairly small tower though. If all it's doing is running a BBS, it shouldn't draw too much power.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: MRO to Immortal on Tue Oct 17 2017 09:19 pm

he probably did the calculation wrong. with a display or two, and if its on all day long it can be about 25 bucks a month.

I don't leave the display on all the time. Actually it's off most of the time, so it's just the tower running. I used a power meter to measure its power use for a month and just multiplied that by 12 and the cost power kwh. It's fairly simple math.. But I suppose I could be remembering it wrong.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Oct 16 2017 04:47 pm

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home, I

For me, several reasons. First I got a 256mb server with 25gb of disk space which will easily run sbbs for about $15 per year with high uptime.

My own box I bring up and down all the time for upgrades, testing, kicking
out the cable under my desk etc.

I also run services on my home box like smtp that I wouldn't be able to use with sbbs. Using a hosted server it is dedicated to running the one application and I can have the lower ports available.

Incidentally I don't run sbbs as root but as its own user then use DNAT redirect the lower ports. So when someone telnets in on 23 or uses ssh
on 22 it actually redirects them to 2300 or 2200 respectively. I do this
for all the ports including the UDP ones.

Most hosted servers also have ipv6 available whereas my ISP doesn't and
a tunnel is going to be much slower. That said, my new provider isn't
going to have ipv6 for about another 60-90 days :(

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þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Oct 17 2017 09:45 am

bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind that.

Until your hard disk dies or your power supply dies or your cooling fan
gives up and burns out your CPU...

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þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Wed Oct 18 2017 11:53 am

Why would I want to do that when I can run my BBS from home? At home,

My own box I bring up and down all the time for upgrades, testing, kicking out the cable under my desk etc.

I'd think cloud-based machines would also need to be taken down occasionally for upgrading etc.. Or sometimes there might be an unplanned power outage.

Incidentally I don't run sbbs as root but as its own user then use DNAT redirect the lower ports. So when someone telnets in on 23 or uses ssh
on 22 it actually redirects them to 2300 or 2200 respectively. I do this for all the ports including the UDP ones.

I found a way to enable the lower ports for non-root users in Linux. I don't remember offhand, but I know there's a way to do it. I don't remember the reasoning for not allowing the lower ports for non-root users though.. I thought it was best practice to run as few things as possible non-root, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to have those ports available for non-root processes. If someone happens to find a back door into your machine, running as a non-root process means they couldn't do very much harm (hopefully).

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:35 pm

bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was
paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind
that.

Until your hard disk dies or your power supply dies or your cooling fan gives up and burns out your CPU...

That's when you replace whatever died. That's always a risk, and it's the same thing with cloud-hosted servers - Eventually some of the hardware might fail and they'll have to replace it. When you're running the server at home, at least you don't have to wait for someone else to fix it; you can fix it yourself as soon as you can.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:35 pm

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Oct 17 2017 09:45 am

bad. Several years ago I bought a power meter and figured I was paying maybe up to $20 per year to run my BBS machine. I don't mind that.

Until your hard disk dies or your power supply dies or your cooling fan gives up and burns out your CPU...

then your house burns down when you are gone and your dog dies!
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:58 pm

fail and they'll have to replace it. When you're running the server at home, at least you don't have to wait for someone else to fix it; you can fix it yourself as soon as you can.

if you get someone else to fix it for you it's probably sooner than you can fix it. when i've had issues those people at ovh got me up within an hour.
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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Nightfox to Immortal on Wed Oct 18 2017 09:29 am

What kind of computer do you have that uses so little energy?

It's just a regular home-built PC tower. It's a fairly small tower though. If all it's doing is running a BBS, it shouldn't draw too much power.

I run my BBS on a HP-5740e thin client that uses 12 to 18 watts max power.
I took out the 2GB SSD card and put a 500 GB HD.
Works great cost very little to run.
a Better thin Client PC would be the HP-610 Plus but I only paid $13.50 FOR THE HP-5740E.

"... Computer programmers don't byte, they just nybble a bit."

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:56 pm

I'd think cloud-based machines would also need to be taken down occasionally for upgrading etc.. Or sometimes there might be an unplanned power outage.

Not really, surprisingly. Not much happens in the openvz world. I have more power outages a year at home in suburban Dallas than I have outages with
any of my VPS machines.

I found a way to enable the lower ports for non-root users in Linux. I don't remember offhand, but I know there's a way to do it. I don't remember

That's in the sbbs docs somewhere. I know that processes can drop their privs once running. I just find it easier to use iptables then I don't have to mess with port configurations or anything like that. You just need an iptables
rule to accept the incoming connection on, say, port 2300 and a NAT
PREROUTING DNAT redirection and you're done.

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þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Wed Oct 18 2017 12:58 pm

same thing with cloud-hosted servers - Eventually some of the hardware might fail and they'll have to replace it. When you're running the server at home, at least you don't have to wait for someone else to fix it; you can fix it yourself as soon as you can.

True, if you have replacements on hand and/or you want to find a new
something or other at 3am on a Sunday morning. TBH, I would run from home
if I had a 2nd IP to use but that's not the case.

One other obviousl downside is that you don't have a hardware speaker so
you can't be paged. Well, you can but you'd never hear it. I'm sure some
people have found a workaround. I was thinking a small client on the local computer that could receive a connection from the BBS to make a sound but that's beyond what I have time to figure out right now.

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nelgin on Wed Oct 18 2017 04:16 pm

then your house burns down when you are gone and your dog dies!

Are we talking computers or country music here? :)

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þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS

Until your hard disk dies or your power supply dies or your cooling fan gives up and burns out your CPU...

then your house burns down when you are gone and your dog dies!

Then you move into a cloud home !

But seriously, cloud or no cloud there is still hardware somewhere using electrons to make it work.

The questions is, you want it home or not. It's like making food home or going out. Might not be efficient to have it home but hey! it's fun.

Not to say that i wont get tired of running it home! but if hardware fail I
can always take my image and run it elsewhere while I fix.

---
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MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

well i have this server that i use for a few things, and the diskspace
and the muscle and the memory is there, so i figured why not.

Whereas my VPS is pretty much fully loaded, so no point adding a BBS to it.

it's not cheaper. i'm not sure how much i'm saving. i pay half the bill and a donator pays the other because i manage hosting for him and other shit.

That helps. I get a good deal, because the provider is also a ham and my VPS is mostly providing services to the ham community.

it's certainly easy and i'm happy with the results.
i did have to pay a friend to setup a linux vm on proxmox with one of
my ip addresses because i forgot how to do it. windows is super easy
with that. ---

Linux isn't hard, if you do it all the time. :)


... A cat is always on the wrong side of the door!
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

MRO wrote to Immortal <=-

he probably did the calculation wrong. with a display or two, and if
its on all day long it can be about 25 bucks a month.

i dont believe he is using around 7cents a day of electricity on his

Together, both of my pi based BBSs costs around $1.35/month to run, or 4.55c/day. :)

Yes, that's the total estimated figure for both of them combined! :)

Assumptions:

R-Pi current draw (early models w/ Ethernet) 700mA (3.5W), with no peripherals.
Actual draw is probably less, given the BBS doesn't tax the CPU. That would allow for inefficiencies in the power supply.

Cost of electricity = 26c/kWh (yep, it's not cheap here).

Internet - essentially free, I'm on an unlimited plan, which would be paid for, regardless of BBSs or not.


... And, best of all, Fido people are the best of all!
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-

I don't leave the display on all the time. Actually it's off most of
the time, so it's just the tower running. I used a power meter to
measure its power use for a month and just multiplied that by 12 and
the cost power kwh. It's fairly simple math.. But I suppose I could
be remembering it wrong.

What was the power consumption in Watts? Multiply that by 720/1000 to get a rough kWh/month.


... Press "+" to see another tagline.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Nelgin wrote to Nightfox <=-

For me, several reasons. First I got a 256mb server with 25gb of disk space which will easily run sbbs for about $15 per year with high
uptime.

That's nice and cheap. :)

Incidentally I don't run sbbs as root but as its own user then use DNAT redirect the lower ports. So when someone telnets in on 23 or uses ssh
on 22 it actually redirects them to 2300 or 2200 respectively. I do
this for all the ports including the UDP ones.

I start SBBS as root then it drops priviileges to a normal user, once the ports are bound.

Most hosted servers also have ipv6 available whereas my ISP doesn't and
a tunnel is going to be much slower. That said, my new provider isn't going to have ipv6 for about another 60-90 days :(

I have native IPv6 at home. My VPS provider also has IPv6, but a lot of VPS providers don't.


... I luvs ya, but everyone else thinks you're an ass.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Nightfox wrote to Nelgin <=-

I'd think cloud-based machines would also need to be taken down occasionally for upgrading etc.. Or sometimes there might be an
unplanned power outage.

It is trivial to migrate a running VPS from host to host these days, with no downtime (or so short you wouldn't notice).

I found a way to enable the lower ports for non-root users in Linux. I don't remember offhand, but I know there's a way to do it. I don't remember the reasoning for not allowing the lower ports for non-root
users though.. I thought it was best practice to run as few things as possible non-root, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to have those ports available for non-root processes. If someone happens to find a
back door into your machine, running as a non-root process means they couldn't do very much harm (hopefully).

You can give a process specific priviliges to a binary to bind ports below 1024 as a non root user. I can't recall the command, but I do know where it's documented, and I have used it - in the setup for LinBPQ documentation. LinBPQ is a ham radio networking package, descended from the DOS based G8BPQ Packet Switch.

Here's the relevant part of their documentation.

you want to use UDP or TCP ports below 1024, or the BPQEther Driver, you must also set some capabilites on the file (or run as root, which is not advisable). You may need to install setcap if it isn't already on your system - sudo apt-get install libcap2-bin (or the equivalent for your disatribution.

sudo setcap "CAP_NET_ADMIN=ep CAP_NET_RAW=ep CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE=ep" linbpq

I'm guessing we just need "CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE=ep" for sbbs, maybe "CAP_NET_ADMIN=ep". See the relevant man page(s) for details.


... 12 Hours Of Work!! What Do You Mean Disk Error??
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Thu Oct 19 2017 01:13 pm

I don't leave the display on all the time. Actually it's off most of the time, so it's just the tower running. I used a power meter to measure its power use for a month and just multiplied that by 12 and the cost power kwh. It's fairly simple math.. But I suppose I could be remembering it wrong.

What was the power consumption in Watts? Multiply that by 720/1000 to get a rough kWh/month.

i do (watts/1000) x (hours per day it's turned on) x(31 days) = kilowatt hrs per month

then i look on my electric bill and see how much kilowatt hr costs.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Thu Oct 19 2017 01:24 pm

Nightfox wrote to Nelgin <=-

I'd think cloud-based machines would also need to be taken down occasionally for upgrading etc.. Or sometimes there might be an unplanned power outage.

It is trivial to migrate a running VPS from host to host these days, with no downtime (or so short you wouldn't notice).

i just had something fuckup with my server vm when i rebooted.
i restored a backup that was on the local server and started her up and i was back up and running.
couldnt be easier.

only thing that happened was a guy registered a channel on irc and he will have to redo it.
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ENNEV wrote to ALL <=-

Myself, I must say I've started early. Was borrowing a TRS-80 Model I, when the Trs-80 Color Computer got out it was a no brainer, got it with 16k or ram and extended basic. Was my main system for a long time and stayed faithful to the brand for a long time, getting a modem and
almost all the extension they had to it, went to 64k, floppy disk,
mouse, voice pak, serial port etc, you name it. Even got another coco
to run a bbs on it. Upgraded to a COCO3 and kept at it until Tandy
dropped it to go all ibm compatible.

What's your story ?

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

My middle school math teacher brought a HAM radio one day and that
really got my attention. I'm now a license holder and would love
to talk to him on the air, but he sadly passed away several years ago.

The next year he brought a Model IV duel floppy system. He had written
a simple BASIC program to help teach math, but he let me 'play around'
with it during slow times (small school - I even skipped PE to go
to his room).

He actually showed me BASIC and introduced me to Scott Adams text
adventures. I was hooked. :-)

A few years later the bass player in my little bluegrass group was
going to college for computer programming and he had a TRS-80 Color
Computer (aka Trash 80 CoCo). It had the chicklet keys but still it
reminded me of the one my teacher had a few years prior, so for
Christmas my dad bought me a CoCo 2 with the realy keys! I subscribed
to Rainbow Magazine, I think it was, and learned BASIC.

I got a cassette recorder and bought some software - wrote other. A
few years later I got a disk drive for it.

A few years later I got a hand me down 8026 duel floppy amber monitor
from my sister. Put a modem in it and discovered BBS's.



... Police station toilets stolen. Cops have nothing to go on.
--- MultiMail/Darwin v0.49
þ wcQWK 7.0 ÷ Omicron Theta - Olive Branch MS - winserver.org

A few years later the bass player in my little bluegrass group was
going to college for computer programming and he had a TRS-80 Color
Computer (aka Trash 80 CoCo). It had the chicklet keys but still it
reminded me of the one my teacher had a few years prior, so for
Christmas my dad bought me a CoCo 2 with the realy keys! I subscribed
to Rainbow Magazine, I think it was, and learned BASIC.

Oh Rainbow magazine, i loved that magazine back then. They must still be in my mother cellar, should have a look one day.

if you feel nostalgic you can still read the old copies at https://archive.org/details/rainbowmagazine

---
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Wed Oct 18 2017 08:42 pm

One other obviousl downside is that you don't have a hardware speaker so you can't be paged. Well, you can but you'd never hear it. I'm sure some people have found a workaround. I was thinking a small client on the local computer that could receive a connection from the BBS to make a sound but that's beyond what I have time to figure out right now.

That could be done. I wrote a little socket-based application one time that did that, so when users would page me from the BBS, it would run an app that would connect to my main PC and play a (configurable) sound file. The app I created was very simple though, and if I wasn't running the app on my main PC, then the one on the BBS machine would pause for several moments while it tried to connect (and failed). I eventually stopped using it.

I'm not sure how often users page me though.. Normally I'm away from my BBS machine these days doing other things around the house and probably wouldn't hear a page.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Thu Oct 19 2017 01:13 pm

and the cost power kwh. It's fairly simple math.. But I suppose I
could be remembering it wrong.

What was the power consumption in Watts? Multiply that by 720/1000 to get a rough kWh/month.

I don't remember now.. It was several years ago when I measured it.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to MRO on Wed Oct 18 2017 10:38 pm

then your house burns down when you are gone and your dog dies!

Then you move into a cloud home !

There should be a Scottish hosting service - MacLeod Hosting or similar. As they used to say on Saturday Night Live, if it's not Scottish, it's crap.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

i do (watts/1000) x (hours per day it's turned on) x(31 days) =
kilowatt hrs per month

I just summarised that into one formula. Only difference is I used 31 days instead of 32. :)


... I will defend to your death my right to my opinion.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

i just had something fuckup with my server vm when i rebooted.
i restored a backup that was on the local server and started her up and
i was back up and running.
couldnt be easier.

Yeah that works too. :)


... Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Nightfox wrote to Nelgin <=-

That could be done. I wrote a little socket-based application one time that did that, so when users would page me from the BBS, it would run
an app that would connect to my main PC and play a (configurable) sound file. The app I created was very simple though, and if I wasn't
running the app on my main PC, then the one on the BBS machine would
pause for several moments while it tried to connect (and failed). I eventually stopped using it.

I'm not sure how often users page me though.. Normally I'm away from
my BBS machine these days doing other things around the house and
probably wouldn't hear a page.

What is needed is a pager/chat app. Would be good if it could be loaded on both a PC/Mac and a smartphone at the same time.


... Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Fri Oct 20 2017 09:14 pm

I'm not sure how often users page me though.. Normally I'm away from my BBS machine these days doing other things around the house and probably wouldn't hear a page.

What is needed is a pager/chat app. Would be good if it could be loaded on both a PC/Mac and a smartphone at the same time.

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get it on your phone.
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MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and
you get it on your phone.

That's not going to do the job. Email is not the right medium for this, not real time enough, and if one is subscribed to many mailing lists, can't be sure which notification is the page. One of the IM services or using something like Pushover would be better for a page. Plenty of chat apps, something like XMPP could conceivably be used for page and chat.


... COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup, & Press A Key To Resume.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Fri Oct 20 2017 03:34 pm

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get it on your phone.

Why not? Paging seemed like a standard feature of BBS software back in the day, and sometimes a user might want to see if they can get you onto live chat. I used to enjoy chatting with my users sometimes. But I tend to just let them send an email if they want to ask something though.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sat Oct 21 2017 08:13 am

MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get it on your phone.

That's not going to do the job. Email is not the right medium for this, not real time enough, and if one is subscribed to many mailing lists, can't be sure which notification is the page. One of the IM services or using something like Pushover would be better for a page. Plenty of chat apps, something like XMPP could conceivably be used for page and chat.

man nobody on a bbs needs to get ahold of you right then at that second.
email is good enough. someone emails me and i get it within 5 mins.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Oct 20 2017 04:22 pm

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Fri Oct 20 2017 03:34 pm

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get it on your phone.

Why not? Paging seemed like a standard feature of BBS software back in the day, and sometimes a user might want to see if they can get you onto live chat. I used to enjoy chatting with my users sometimes. But I tend to just let them send an email if they want to ask something though.

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users anymore.
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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Oct 20 2017 04:22 pm

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and
you get it on your phone.

Why not? Paging seemed like a standard feature of BBS software back in the day, and sometimes a user might want to see if they can get you onto live chat. I used to enjoy chatting with my users sometimes. But I tend to just let them send an email if they want to ask something though.

In the 90's when I ran PCBoard 15 0n a 286 the BBS was upstairs I always had paging turned on, it was fun to chat with my users once in a while.


"... "And we had to chisel taglines into the walls of the cave....""

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Oct 20 2017 07:48 pm

Why not? Paging seemed like a standard feature of BBS software back
in the day, and sometimes a user might want to see if they can get you
onto live chat. I used to enjoy chatting with my users sometimes. But
I tend to just let them send an email if they want to ask something
though.

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users anymore.

I've had a couple users on my current BBS who have paged me who I've chatted with a couple times.

Nightfox

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þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Derision on Wed Oct 18 2017 07:37:20

Recently dug my O.G. 1986 64C out of mothballs and suddenly realized that, hey, I'm a grown up and I can damn well buy an Amiga if I want to, so I got an A500. So learning that a bit, though it's a bit of a curve compared to the 64.

Commodore bought Amiga, so in a way it's a totally different beast. They where stalling in the development of theirs next generation so they swallowed Amiga to get them there. At one point i hear that Amiga could have been an Atari product.

Yeah, from what I know of it Atari was funding the development of the Amiga, and then Commodore bought them out at the last minute. Muddying things even further was the fact that Atari was owned by Jack Tramiel, who was the dude who started Commodore. So the ST line is really more the spiritual successor to the C64, despite it being a different company.

I'm trying to like the Amiga, but there's that whole abstraction layer between the machine and you. On the C64, I feel like I know how to manipulate every tiny nuance of the machine, whereas the Amiga has some kind of software layer in between you and the machine. I dunno. I'll get a handle on it eventually.

D

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Fri Oct 20 2017 03:34 pm

What is needed is a pager/chat app. Would be good if it could be loaded on both a PC/Mac and a smartphone at the same time.

if I'm not at home, i don't want to talk to you (not you personally). Anyone who really wants me knows where to find me. The BBS is a hobby and isn't going to creep into my off time.

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Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Oct 20 2017 07:48 pm

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users anymore.

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

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þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

I'm trying to like the Amiga, but there's that whole abstraction layer between the machine and you. On the C64, I feel like I know how to manipulate every tiny nuance of the machine, whereas the Amiga has some
kind of software layer in between you and the machine. I dunno. I'll get a handle on it eventually.

Maybe on the surface it looked like that, but to had done graphic and some
demo game on Amiga in assembler it actually felt great, all the hardware was open for you to play with, the bios had a lot of great function so that even
in assembler you could easily access the file system etc. But going directly
to the hardware was fantastic. Bit yes some concept where different. For example the graphic array wasn't bitmap, but bitplanes. Sound was so easy to manipulate too. having learned assembler on 6809 going to a 68000 was so natural and the instruction set was clean, every instruction working in every addressing modes. but Would be like that too on an atari ST appart for all the co-processor that the amiga had. We even had a tiny cpu call copper that only had 4 instruction but was tied directly to the electon beam of the crt, so you could change the color palete on every scan line etc. even resolution. Nothing was preventing you to have like 1/3 of the screen on 640 pixel and 16 colour then having the next 2/3 in 320 pixel and 64 colour.

we also had a processor that could do vector graphic, so the cpu was free to
do so much.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

I fell that most of my users don't run a board. But they would know how to run one. I'm glad in a way that i'm saving them the trouble :-D

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Derision to Ennev on Sun Oct 22 2017 06:03 am



your tagline is way too long. you should put your advertisement in
a signature instead.

þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The portal for Amiga computers - Over 2,500 files t
o download for f

þ Reading þ [2] DOVE-Net [1] General (?=Menu) (3132 of 3134): R
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:30 am

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Fri Oct 20 2017 03:34 pm

What is needed is a pager/chat app. Would be good if it could be loaded on both a PC/Mac and a smartphone at the same time.

if I'm not at home, i don't want to talk to you (not you personally). Anyone who really wants me knows where to find me. The BBS is a hobby and isn't going to creep into my off time.

yeah, i dont get the reasoning. maybe it's because i've actually chatted with bbs users and it's not really a pleasant thing to do.

i'm reachable via irc or within 1 minute via email usually, so i dont need my computer beeping me to run to it and reply to someone.

now if i was getting PAID, then i want to know when a server is having issues in real time. email handles that too with the monitors you can use.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:32 am

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Oct 20 2017 07:48 pm

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users anymore.

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

i get sysops from other bbses and it seems like i get wanna be hackers who want to exploit the system. also i get a few nostalgia guys. those guys only call once usually.

i certainly dont have a friendly relationship with all my users like in the dialup days. things are entirely different.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Fri Oct 20 2017 15:34:14

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Fri Oct 20 2017 09:14 pm

I'm not sure how often users page me though.. Normally I'm away fro my BBS machine these days doing other things around the house and probably wouldn't hear a page.

What is needed is a pager/chat app. Would be good if it could be loaded both a PC/Mac and a smartphone at the same time.

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get on your phone.

It was fun going on a BBS and chating with poeple but chating with the sysop was very cool. It gave you a new experience to the definition to the word appreciation for the work they've done. I had a more respect for them when they answered and talked to me. I liked it.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Bigbangnet to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 12:16 pm

why would you want someone to page you? have them leave an email and you get on your phone.

It was fun going on a BBS and chating with poeple but chating with the sysop was very cool. It gave you a new experience to the definition to the word appreciation for the work they've done. I had a more respect for them when they answered and talked to me. I liked it.

those days are gone.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Win 95
By: Mr. Cool to Nightfox on Sun Oct 15 2017 10:28 am

Shut down DOS? What does that mean? And I remember being able to exit from Windows 9x and get back to a DOS prompt (without Windows running), and you could even have it boot just to a DOS prompt without Windows.

Nightfox

I believe I originally found this out from https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20071224-00/?p=24063. Windows would save the current state of DOS and could reactivate it as needed. Of course if you configure it to boot directly to DOS and not start Windows, this most likely would not apply until such time as you started Windows.

- Mr. Cool

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:32 am

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users
anymore.

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

We get a little bit of a mix, we get one time callers, other Sysops and a few regulars, my regular users are the biggest reason I keep the BBS going although I really love tinkering with my BBS.

"... You have the right to remain silent! please use that right."

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nelgin on Sun Oct 22 2017 10:54 am

yeah, i dont get the reasoning. maybe it's because i've actually chatted with bbs users and it's not really a pleasant thing to do.

i'm reachable via irc or within 1 minute via email usually, so i dont need my computer beeping me to run to it and reply to someone.

now if i was getting PAID, then i want to know when a server is having issues in real time. email handles that too with the monitors you can use.

What you don't get paid to run your BBS? JK running a BBS is just a great littl hobby that can take as much or little time as you want to put into it.
I don't have any desire to add audible chat to my BBS, but back in the DOS day's my 286 had a built in speaker to alert me when someone wanted to chat.

"... You have the right to remain silent! please use that right."

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 02:04 pm

"... You have the right to remain silent! please use that right."

Wow when I press "R" for random tagline I get this same stupid tag, not very random.

"... I may be schizophrenic, but at least I'll always have each other."

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Denn to Nelgin on Sun Oct 22 2017 01:57 pm

anymore.

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

We get a little bit of a mix, we get one time callers, other Sysops and a

who's we?

btw , knn4bn or whatever he calls himself put his bbs up again. guess those hackers stopped!
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 02:04 pm

now if i was getting PAID, then i want to know when a server is having issues in real time. email handles that too with the monitors you can use.

What you don't get paid to run your BBS? JK running a BBS is just a great littl hobby that can take as much or little time as you want to put into it.

actually i was making money off of it and the sites i ran, but also putting a lot of time and money into it as well. it wasnt steady money.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Derision on Sun Oct 22 2017 11:22:56

I'm trying to like the Amiga, but there's that whole abstraction layer between the machine and you. On the C64, I feel like I know how to manipulate every tiny nuance of the machine, whereas the Amiga has some kind of software layer in between you and the machine. I dunno. I'll get a handle on it eventually.

Maybe on the surface it looked like that, but to had done graphic and some demo game on Amiga in assembler it actually felt great, all the hardware was open for you to play with, the bios had a lot of great function so that even in assembler you could easily access the file system etc. But going directly to the hardware was fantastic. Bit yes some concept where different. For example the graphic array wasn't bitmap, but bitplanes. Sound was so easy to manipulate too. having learned assembler on 6809 going to a 68000 was so natural and the instruction set was clean, every instruction working in every addressing modes. but Would be like that too on an atari ST appart for all the co-processor that the amiga had. We even had a tiny cpu call copper that only had 4 instruction but was tied directly to the electon beam of the crt, so you could change the color palete on every scan line etc. even resolution. Nothing was preventing you to have like 1/3 of the screen on 640 pixel and 16 colour then having the next 2/3 in 320 pixel and 64 colour.

we also had a processor that could do vector graphic, so the cpu was free to do so much.

I've noticed a lot of the demos and games from the A500 era won't cooperate with Workbench because of how "close to the metal" they are.

---
þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The portal for Amiga computers - Over 2,500 files to download for f

I'm trying to like the Amiga, but there's that whole abstraction layer between >the machine and you. On the C64, I feel like I know how to manipulate every >tiny nuance of the machine, whereas the Amiga has some kind of software layer >in between you and the machine. I dunno. I'll get a handle on it eventually.

That is how I have always felt about Windows machines.

---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ All the world's indeed a stage & we are merely players...
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY3 Test System

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 14:10:50

Wow when I press "R" for random tagline I get this same stupid tag, not very random.

"... I may be schizophrenic, but at least I'll always have each other."

Looks like that pick of taglines worked out beautifully! <g>

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Denn on Sun Oct 22 2017 04:22 pm

btw , knn4bn or whatever he calls himself put his bbs up again. guess those hackers stopped!

I'm not so sure he had any hackers, I mean he tried to accuss me and one of my users of hacking him, that for sure didn't happen but whatever.
I'm glad to see he got it all back up but I really wish he would'nt go around accussing people of hacking him.
If you think about it all our BBS's are being bombarded with hacking attempts on a daily basis, I just bought the Nighthawk AC1900 router that has built in DOS protection.
I wish Tim well but I'll never join his message base again.

"... -> - .- --. .-.. .. -. . --. --- . ... .... . .-. . <-"

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Denn on Sun Oct 22 2017 10:14 pm

Wow when I press "R" for random tagline I get this same stupid tag,
not very random.

"... I may be schizophrenic, but at least I'll always have each
other."

Looks like that pick of taglines worked out beautifully! <g>

I actually picked that one, I'll try another random here to make sure it wasn't jus a coincidence that it posted the same random tag twice in a row.

"... Taglines: the toilet-stall walls of BBSdom."

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

It was fun going on a BBS and chating with poeple but chating with the
sysop was very cool. It gave you a new experience to the definition to the word appreciation for the work they've done. I had a more respect for them when they answered and talked to me. I liked it.

I guess I was an impopular sysop :-D because people where rarely paging me.
And if I was starting a chat with someone logged on they would bang down right away :-D

I guess i'm scary.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

I've noticed a lot of the demos and games from the A500 era won't cooperate with Workbench because of how "close to the metal" they are.

Oh yes, that's the thing. The vast majority of games where taking over, they only way out was reboot. They would totally take over the entire system, the
os was multi-tasking but forget it when I game was running. From this aspect
it was acting much more like a game machine.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:30 am

if I'm not at home, i don't want to talk to you (not you personally). Anyone who really wants me knows where to find me. The BBS is a hobby and isn't going to creep into my off time.

I think part of the definition of a hobby is something you do in your off time, isn't it?

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nelgin on Sun Oct 22 2017 10:54 am

yeah, i dont get the reasoning. maybe it's because i've actually chatted with bbs users and it's not really a pleasant thing to do.

I'm not sure what kind of BBS users you've chatted with, but almost all of my interactions with BBS users have been good and positive. If you don't enjoy interacting with your users, maybe that's a sign that you don't enjoy the hobby.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:26:29

I think part of the definition of a hobby is something you do in your off ti isn't it?

I agree with that definition, and add in the following:
- Fun
- No time constraint
- No pressure

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Denn to MRO on Mon Oct 23 2017 01:02 am

I'm glad to see he got it all back up but I really wish he would'nt go around accussing people of hacking him.
If you think about it all our BBS's are being bombarded with hacking attempts on a daily basis, I just bought the Nighthawk AC1900 router that has built in DOS protection.
I wish Tim well but I'll never join his message base again.

okay now. so you joined his msg network? maybe your polls looked like hack attempts to him?

and yes, i get hit every minute of the day on all my bbses. it's part of being on the internet now.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:26 am

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:30 am

if I'm not at home, i don't want to talk to you (not you personally). Anyone who really wants me knows where to find me. The BBS is a hobby and isn't going to creep into my off time.

I think part of the definition of a hobby is something you do in your off time, isn't it?

nobody is going to creep into my tv watching/porn watching time which happens to be in my off time.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:27 am

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nelgin on Sun Oct 22 2017 10:54 am

yeah, i dont get the reasoning. maybe it's because i've actually chatted with bbs users and it's not really a pleasant thing to do.

I'm not sure what kind of BBS users you've chatted with, but almost all of my interactions with BBS users have been good and positive. If you don't enjoy interacting with your users, maybe that's a sign that you don't enjoy the hobby.

it's usually a boring conversation about how things used to be, or it's a foreign person with poor social skills. has nothing to do with 'the hobby' other than i get some boring people.

i think if everyone here was honest they could all agree that the amount and the quality of users has really dropped off.

i think a lot of your examples are hypotheticals and well wishing than actual things that happened.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Oct 23 2017 03:58 pm

I'm not sure what kind of BBS users you've chatted with, but almost
all of my interactions with BBS users have been good and positive. If
you don't enjoy interacting with your users, maybe that's a sign that
you don't enjoy the hobby.

it's usually a boring conversation about how things used to be, or it's a foreign person with poor social skills. has nothing to do with 'the hobby' other than i get some boring people.

i think if everyone here was honest they could all agree that the amount and the quality of users has really dropped off.

i think a lot of your examples are hypotheticals and well wishing than actual things that happened.

I agree the number of users have dropped off. I have enjoyed most of the interactions I've had with users (though not too common), whether you believe it or not.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:26 am

I think part of the definition of a hobby is something you do in your off time, isn't it?

The amount of time I see people dedicate to it...not so sure :)

---
þ Synchronet þ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to MRO on Sun Oct 22 2017 03:32:46

those days are over with and we dont have those kinds of users anymore.

So what kind of users do we get? Is it just sysops from other boards?

I'm not a sysop. But I might play one on TV.

---
þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The portal for Amiga computers - Over 2,500 files to download for f

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Derision on Sun Oct 22 2017 11:22:56

I'm trying to like the Amiga, but there's that whole abstraction layer between the machine and you. On the C64, I feel like I know how to manipulate every tiny nuance of the machine, whereas the Amiga has some kind of software layer in between you and the machine. I dunno. I'll get a handle on it eventually.

Maybe on the surface it looked like that, but to had done graphic and some demo game on Amiga in assembler it actually felt great, all the hardware was open for you to play with, the bios had a lot of great function so that even in assembler you could easily access the file system etc. But going directly to the hardware was fantastic. Bit yes some concept where different. For example the graphic array wasn't bitmap, but bitplanes. Sound was so easy to manipulate too. having learned assembler on 6809 going to a 68000 was so natural and the instruction set was clean, every instruction working in every addressing modes. but Would be like that too on an atari ST appart for all the co-processor that the amiga had. We even had a tiny cpu call copper that only had 4 instruction but was tied directly to the electon beam of the crt, so you could change the color palete on every scan line etc. even resolution. Nothing was preventing you to have like 1/3 of the screen on 640 pixel and 16 colour then having the next 2/3 in 320 pixel and 64 colour.

we also had a processor that could do vector graphic, so the cpu was free to do so much.

That's why I'm so into the idea of the machine, and really want to learn it. Started to look at some demos. There is some pretty graphically impressive stuff there. I know a little bit of 680x0 assembly, so it shouldn't be too hard to really dig in. Just have to get to it.

---
þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The portal for Amiga computers - Over 2,500 files to download for f

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Muhammad Al-Khwarizmi on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:12:49

Oh yes, that's the thing. The vast majority of games where taking over, they only way out was reboot. They would totally take over the entire system, the os was multi-tasking but forget it when I game was running. From this aspect it was acting much more like a game machine.

One of the things that I've had some trouble getting used to is the idea of booting software off floppies again. On the C64, it's a no-brainer. You're either using a physical disk or a .D64 as a virtual disk and running off that. But my brain has been so conditioned by Macs and Windows that I *WANT* everything to run within Workbench, and that just isn't how it is. There's plenty of stuff that doesn't even need (or want) the OS to run.

---
þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The portal for Amiga computers - Over 2,500 files to download for f

That's why I'm so into the idea of the machine, and really want to learn
it. Started to look at some demos. There is some pretty graphically impressive stuff there. I know a little bit of 680x0 assembly, so it shouldn't be too hard to really dig in. Just have to get to it.

If you did Intel assembly you'll find it simpler. Some instruction have different name or some concept might be little different. Like no push or pop instruction to use the stack. intead of a push you would do :
MOVEM D0, -(A7) # move the content of register D0 to the address pointed by A7 and decrement the address pointed by the pointer by 1


to pop : MOVEM +(A7), D0 # take the content at the address pointed by A7 into register D0 and increment by one the address pointer A7

So it end up doing the same thing as a push or a pop, but it also show the power of the instruction set.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

One of the things that I've had some trouble getting used to is the idea of booting software off floppies again. On the C64, it's a no-brainer. You're either using a physical disk or a .D64 as a virtual disk and running off that. But my brain has been so conditioned by Macs and Windows that I
*WANT* everything to run within Workbench, and that just isn't how it is. There's plenty of stuff that doesn't even need (or want) the OS to run.

Yes, so games like simcity that come in mind and a few others like battlechess behave well with the os. But appart for "serious" application like image editor, 3d rendered and word processor that will behave well with the workbench. But you have to keep in mind that Amiga would often give apps
theirs on "screen" so they where not just a windows on the workbench but
living on another screen so you would have to switch back and fort to them
with Left-Amiga + M and Left-Amiga + N to cycle trough them or use the appropriate icon.

Programming for workbech was easy having a rich library already in the bios.
So manipulating strings, windows, file system was dead easy. Even in assembler theses libs where easy to implement. But game programmer prefered to take over the entire system, i guess it was easier when you where porting games. In theses years most devellopers would publish title both on Atari ST and amiga, since they where both using a 68000 as a core cpu it might have been more easy sice the os themselves where dramatically different.

The sad part is that theses games where made on ST then ported on amiga since
a 320X200 16 colours game would display on a amiga but not a 320X200 32
colours game. Its really when develloper started to make game for amiga first that the hardware was starting of being really exploited.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

to pop : MOVEM +(A7), D0 # take the content at the address pointed by A7 into register D0 and increment by one the address pointer A7

btw this is a pre incrementation is that the value of the pointer would be incremented before we read the content of the address a (A7)+ would have read then increment. That cpu was very powerful. You would go on a 8086 based instruction chip set and cry.

the 68000 had a address bus of 24 bit, giving it just 16MB of addressable ram, was kind of honorable in the mid 80's but all the address register where 32bit internally. Future proofing it, you code would work on a 4GB address space
when available without modification.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Derision on Tue Oct 24 2017 07:40:39

If you did Intel assembly you'll find it simpler. Some instruction have different name or some concept might be little different. Like no push or po instruction to use the stack. intead of a push you would do :
MOVEM D0, -(A7) # move the content of register D0 to the address pointed b A7 and decrement the address pointed by the pointer by 1

to pop : MOVEM +(A7), D0 # take the content at the address pointed by A7 into register D0 and increment by one the address pointer A7

So it end up doing the same thing as a push or a pop, but it also show the power of the instruction set.

Woooo... Personally, that is waaaay beyond my understanding. :) I never understood Assembly.

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Woooo... Personally, that is waaaay beyond my understanding. :) I never understood Assembly.

I guess in C it would be something like A=*++ptr;

Yet I fell it even look more cryptic :-D

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Derision to Ennev on Tue Oct 24 2017 04:53 am

One of the things that I've had some trouble getting used to is the idea of booting software off floppies again. On the C64, it's a no-brainer. You're either using a physical disk or a .D64 as a virtual disk and running off that. But my brain has been so conditioned by Macs and Windows that I *WANT* everything to run within Workbench, and that just isn't how it is. There's plenty of stuff that doesn't even need (or want) the OS to run.

you need an operating system. if you dont have one you cant operate!
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

you need an operating system. if you dont have one you cant operate!

Where we go we don't need to OS :-)

In emulation for C64 and Amiga ( on most machine of theses day) the only thing you'll need is the bios or rom portion of it.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Bigbangnet on Mon Oct 23 2017 09:08:18

It was fun going on a BBS and chating with poeple but chating with the sysop was very cool. It gave you a new experience to the definition to th word appreciation for the work they've done. I had a more respect for the when they answered and talked to me. I liked it.

I guess I was an impopular sysop :-D because people where rarely paging me. And if I was starting a chat with someone logged on they would bang down rig away :-D

I guess i'm scary.

Speaking of talking to sysop, I have a question for you. Anyone could answer of course so that why I'll keep it open. Perhaps its going to help someone else.

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut text and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...idk. I'm not looking at it properly

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Ennev on Tue Oct 24 2017 11:01:51

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Derision on Tue Oct 24 2017 07:40:39

If you did Intel assembly you'll find it simpler. Some instruction have different name or some concept might be little different. Like no push or instruction to use the stack. intead of a push you would do :
MOVEM D0, -(A7) # move the content of register D0 to the address pointe A7 and decrement the address pointed by the pointer by 1

to pop : MOVEM +(A7), D0 # take the content at the address pointed by into register D0 and increment by one the address pointer A7

So it end up doing the same thing as a push or a pop, but it also show th power of the instruction set.

Woooo... Personally, that is waaaay beyond my understanding. :) I never understood Assembly.

I did visual basic in 2005 and thats it...I just installed visual studio 2017 and watched a vid on nerdgasm coding from barnacules nerdgasm...c# sounds interesting.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Bigbangnet to Ennev on Tue Oct 24 2017 08:22 pm

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut text and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...idk. I'm not looking at it properly

what editor do you have on that system.

are you talking about quoting? i use ctrl q to quote
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Ennev wrote to Ennev <=-

the 68000 had a address bus of 24 bit, giving it just 16MB of
addressable ram, was kind of honorable in the mid 80's but all the
address register where 32bit internally. Future proofing it, you code would work on a 4GB address space when available without modification.

That was certainly better than the segmented memory that the 8086 used. :)


... E Over I Times R - Not just a good idea...it's The Law.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Jagossel wrote to Ennev <=-

Woooo... Personally, that is waaaay beyond my understanding. :) I never understood Assembly.

I was a bit the opposite. I understood assembly, but being able to see the instructions in the wider context of what a program was supposed to do was much harder for me. As a result, I found things like microcontrollers easier to program in Assembler than general purpose machines, because the microcontrollers were generally used for a dedicated purpose and didn't need the complexities of user interaction.


... DOS never says EXCELLENT command or filename...
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut text and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...idk. I'm not looking at it properly

I cheat, most of the time I reply by using the webservice at : http://mtlgeek.synchro.net:8080/ on my board or a use a news reader like thunderbird using port 119.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut text and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...idk. I'm not looking at it properly

If you go in your default setting you can pick an external editor, I have FSEditor there, enable you if you have a good terminal to move the cursor around more like an editor like Nano.

sysops: Any other good editor for Synchro on linux ?

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to MRO on Tue Oct 24 2017 19:38:58

In emulation for C64 and Amiga ( on most machine of theses day) the only thi you'll need is the bios or rom portion of it.

Doesn't the ROMs in any 8-bit computer has an operating system coded in it? Granted it's just basic hardware operations and a BASIC (or some variant of Microsoft BASIC) interpreter?

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Bigbangnet on Tue Oct 24 2017 22:23:36

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Bigbangnet to Ennev on Tue Oct 24 2017 08:22 pm

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut tex and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...id I'm not looking at it properly

what editor do you have on that system.

are you talking about quoting? i use ctrl q to quote

the editor when replying to msg. I discovered it when messing around. It was CTRL plus arrow keys. its the messages on dovenet

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Ennev wrote to Bigbangnet <=-

I cheat, most of the time I reply by using the webservice at : http://mtlgeek.synchro.net:8080/ on my board or a use a news reader
like thunderbird using port 119.

I cheat too, I use offline mail. :D


... Bacon didn't write Shakespeare; Shakespeare ate bacon!
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Jagossel wrote to Ennev <=-

Doesn't the ROMs in any 8-bit computer has an operating system coded in it? Granted it's just basic hardware operations and a BASIC (or some variant of Microsoft BASIC) interpreter?

Yes, general purpose computers usually have some sort of OS. It might be very simple, like nothing more than BASIC and a few ROM based function calls, but still provides some services for user programs to use. In a number of early microcomputers, there were cassette based save and load commands in their BASIC, so some level of file management. Even the original IBM-PC had cassette BASIC, which booted, if there was no bootable disk in the machine. But if you booted off floppy, then the OS off the floppy (usually, but now always MS/PC-DOS - some early PC games had their own OS) was loaded.


... Join Taglines Anonymous. We can help.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Ennev to Bigbangnet on Wed Oct 25 2017 07:21 am

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut text and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...idk. I'm not looking at it properly

If you go in your default setting you can pick an external editor, I have FSEditor there, enable you if you have a good terminal to move the cursor around more like an editor like Nano.

sysops: Any other good editor for Synchro on linux ?

i use an old version of slyedit.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Doesn't the ROMs in any 8-bit computer has an operating system coded in it? Granted it's just basic hardware operations and a BASIC (or some variant of Microsoft BASIC) interpreter?

In a way yes, Commodore64 like TRS-80 had a basic with embedded IO functions
to load a program from tape for example. A game cartridge would bypass that, powering on a system with a cartridge would make the computer boot straight to the cartridge code.

Newer system like amiga,pc and mac had a bios that wasn't an os. but just a library of standard function and a bootstrap code so the machine could load an os or a game straight from the drive. I'm not sure but i think the Atari ST
had the full os in rom.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Ennev on Wed Oct 25 2017 09:13 pm

i use an old version of slyedit.

Why the old version? Are there any issues you saw with newer versions that you'd like to see fixed?

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Ennev to Jagossel on Thu Oct 26 2017 07:32:43

Doesn't the ROMs in any 8-bit computer has an operating system coded in i Granted it's just basic hardware operations and a BASIC (or some variant Microsoft BASIC) interpreter?

In a way yes, Commodore64 like TRS-80 had a basic with embedded IO functions to load a program from tape for example. A game cartridge would bypass that, powering on a system with a cartridge would make the computer boot straight the cartridge code.

I completely forgotten about the tapes and cartridges for the TRS-80. We had Zaxxon by Sega on tape for the TRS-80; I believe it was in machine code, not BASIC. Kind of cool for the time period; rest of the TRS-80 games we had were on cartridges.

We had a modem for the TRS-80 as well, but never used it. Now, I'm curious as to what it would have been like to connect to a BBS on a TRS-80. We had everything to use the modem (including a terminal software on cartrige), just never used it.

Newer system like amiga,pc and mac had a bios that wasn't an os. but just a library of standard function and a bootstrap code so the machine could load os or a game straight from the drive. I'm not sure but i think the Atari ST had the full os in rom.

The Atari STdoes have an operating system on the ROM: TOS with GEM. It was possible to just turn on the Atari ST and it would go right to GEM; no floppy disks need to boot, just for software. I believe GEM would read a disk on boot, and it would be used to load the user settings and any accessories on disk.

GEM had a cool feature to where you could still move the mouse cursor without a mouse. I believe it was ALT and then the arrows, don;t remember what it was exactly. Came in handy when the mouse cord was torn to pieces.

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Oct 26 2017 03:13 pm

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Ennev on Wed Oct 25 2017 09:13 pm

i use an old version of slyedit.

Why the old version? Are there any issues you saw with newer versions that you'd like to see fixed?

i think there was something i had to reconfigure if i updated. i'm using 1.145.

it works so not just going to get the newest version just because.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Ennev on Wed Oct 25 2017 09:13 pm

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Ennev to Bigbangnet on Wed Oct 25 2017 07:21 am

sysops: Any other good editor for Synchro on linux ?

i use an old version of slyedit.

SlyEdit [ICE] is the best.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Oct 26 2017 03:13 pm

Nightfox,

i use an old version of slyedit.

Why the old version? Are there any issues you saw with newer versions that you'd like to see fixed?

I enjoy the SlyEdit v1.51, not sure if that is the latest, but it meets my need.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Ennev on Thu Oct 26 2017 07:59 pm

Jagossel,

We had a modem for the TRS-80 as well, but never used it. Now, I'm curious as to what it would have been like to connect to a BBS on a TRS-80. We had everything to use the modem (including a terminal software on cartrige), just never used it.

Just picture one letter at a time scrolling across your screen as you try to read 3 or 4 pages of a message.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Fri Oct 27 2017 12:34 am

I enjoy the SlyEdit v1.51, not sure if that is the latest, but it meets my need.

That's the latest version. :)

Eric

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jon Justvig to Jagossel on Fri Oct 27 2017 00:36:07

We had a modem for the TRS-80 as well, but never used it. Now, I'm curi as to what it would have been like to connect to a BBS on a TRS-80. We everything to use the modem (including a terminal software on cartrige) just never used it.

Just picture one letter at a time scrolling across your screen as you try to read 3 or 4 pages of a message.

Something like what you would get if your put SyncTERM's baud rate simulation down to 300? :D I never had the pleasure of using a 300 baud modem, I think we started out with 9600 when we got serious about BBSes.

Probably just gave my age away a bit, there. :)

-jag
Code it, Script it, Automate it!

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Jon Justvig on Fri Oct 27 2017 05:26 pm

Something like what you would get if your put SyncTERM's baud rate simulation down to 300? :D I never had the pleasure of using a 300 baud

I've used SyncTerm's baud rate simulation to help when I optimize screen updates in my Synchronet mods. When you lower the simulated baud rate, you really notice when there are any inefficient screen updates..

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Jon Justvig on Fri Oct 27 2017 05:26 pm

We had a modem for the TRS-80 as well, but never used it. Now, I'm
curi as to what it would have been like to connect to a BBS on a
TRS-80. We everything to use the modem (including a terminal
software on cartrige) just never used it.

My brother had a 300 baud modem for the Color Computer 2, you would manually dial the number then set the hand set on the modem to comunicate with a BBS. When I bought my Color Computer 2 I bought an auto call/answer 1200 baud modem.

"... A Mind is a terrible thing to waste, A waste is a terrible thing to Mind!"

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

Probably just gave my age away a bit, there. :)

Totally did :-)

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Nightfox to Jon Justvig on Fri Oct 27 2017 01:59 pm

Nightfox,

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Fri Oct 27 2017 12:34 am

I enjoy the SlyEdit v1.51, not sure if that is the latest, but it
meets my need.

That's the latest version. :)

I was hoping so, as I just upgraded Synchronet nightly build just a few days ago. Keep up the good work!

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Jon Justvig on Fri Oct 27 2017 05:26 pm

Jagossel,

Re: Re: Introduction to computers

Just picture one letter at a time scrolling across your screen as you
try to read 3 or 4 pages of a message.

Something like what you would get if your put SyncTERM's baud rate simulation down to 300? :D I never had the pleasure of using a 300 baud modem, I think we started out with 9600 when we got serious about BBSes.

Yeah, pretty much. I started on 300 baud way back then. It was pretty cool at the time. Sort of like how we think the speed is now compared to what it will be in the next generation or two from now.

Probably just gave my age away a bit, there. :)

Just a little. At least your age doesn't equal your baud rate. :)

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Something like what you would get if your put SyncTERM's baud rate simulation >down to 300? :D I never had the pleasure of using a 300 baud modem, I think we
started out with 9600 when we got serious about BBSes.
Probably just gave my age away a bit, there. :)

I started with a 2400 baud modem, that was sometimes only reliable at 1200,
at a time when some of the local boards were still advertising 2400 like it
was a big deal, while others were just upgrading to 9600 HST. :)

---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ "Did you open the Microwave door before the 'ding'"?
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY3 Test System

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Jon Justvig to MRO on Thu Oct 26 2017 08:28 pm

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Ennev on Wed Oct 25 2017 09:13 pm

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Ennev to Bigbangnet on Wed Oct 25 2017 07:21 am

sysops: Any other good editor for Synchro on linux ?

i use an old version of slyedit.

SlyEdit [ICE] is the best.

yeah it's like iceedit/quikedit in appearance.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Dumas Walker to JAGOSSEL on Sat Oct 28 2017 05:15 pm

Dumas,

I started with a 2400 baud modem, that was sometimes only reliable at 1200, at a time when some of the local boards were still advertising 2400 like it was a big deal, while others were just upgrading to 9600 HST. :)

Sometime in the future, we will look back and think 10MBps is a fast speed when 10GBps comes around. What is the future insight anyway. I have wondered if internet or telecommunications of some sort will be linked to a power outlet instead of a 2wire land line or a cat/ethernet cable. All we really need is the 0s and 1s anyway.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: Jon Justvig to Dumas Walker on Sun Oct 29 2017 01:11 am

when 10GBps comes around. What is the future insight anyway. I have wondered if internet or telecommunications of some sort will be linked to a power outlet instead of a 2wire land line or a cat/ethernet cable. All we really need is the 0s and 1s anyway.

communications via the power lines has been possible for a long time. i dont think it has good error correction or bandwidth.

i think the guys in charge will only give us faster speeds when its entirely necessary.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Jon Justvig on Sun Oct 29 2017 12:03 am

MRO,

SlyEdit [ICE] is the best.

yeah it's like iceedit/quikedit in appearance.

Only real difference is there is not any kind of registration fees or keys to get it to work. It comes with SBBS, which I feel, has been a great addition to the software.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: MRO to Jon Justvig on Sun Oct 29 2017 01:06 pm

MRO,

communications via the power lines has been possible for a long time. i dont think it has good error correction or bandwidth.

I would not be suprised. Perhaps, they are working on that before providing it to the masses.

i think the guys in charge will only give us faster speeds when its entirely necessary.

Seems to be the way ever since the stone age. Provide as little as you can to gain as much money possible.

---

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig (1:298/25)
Stepping Stone BBS
Legion RPG HQ
http://vintagebbsing.com:81
telnet://vintagebbsing.com
ssh://vintagebbsing.com
trillian: cr1mson
---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com

Re: Re: Introduction to compu
By: MRO to Jon Justvig on Sun Oct 29 2017 01:06 pm

when 10GBps comes around. What is the future insight anyway. I have
wondered if internet or telecommunications of some sort will be linked
to a power outlet instead of a 2wire land line or a cat/ethernet
cable. All we really need is the 0s and 1s anyway.

communications via the power lines has been possible for a long time. i dont think it has good error correction or bandwidth.

I think the big problem would be line noise, years ago I tried the power line wifi and the packet loss was horrible.

"... 53.7% of all statistics are totally incorrect"

---
þ Synchronet þ the Outwest BBS - outwestbbs.com Telnet - outwestbbs.com:23

I think the big problem would be line noise, years ago I tried the power line wifi and the packet loss was horrible.

I don't know if it was the case, but I know some countries in Europe like France and here in Canada there as been some pilot project. At the end here i think that i was hard to offer bandwidth that would have competed with what
was offered with dsl and cable modem. Power being state owned in my province
it gives us low prices (.0582$/kWh) but I don't think it's a great bed for innovation, I know they do research but not in communication i guess.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Ennev to Bigbangnet on Wed Oct 25 2017 07:15:48

How do you properly edit text here. I mean, I've seen some people cut tex and insert text between it. I've tried to look at the shortcuts but ...id I'm not looking at it properly

I cheat, most of the time I reply by using the webservice at : http://mtlgeek.synchro.net:8080/ on my board or a use a news reader like thunderbird using port 119.

using thunderbird...how would I configure that ? just type in the address of mtlgeek.synchronet:8080 and such ? tahts it ?

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Win 95
By: Roadhog to Mr. Cool on Wed Oct 11 2017 10:51 pm

To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

It came at a time when system horsepower increased enough to make a task switching system work -- OS/2 could run circles around Windows on a 486, but once you started seeing Pentium MMX systems, I could run my DOS BBS well enough on Windows.

---
þ Synchronet þ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Thu Oct 12 2017 04:39 am

I remember that so well that I can still remember the filename.
PW1118.EXE the Win32S installer. First thing I downloaded onto a
computer when I had Win 3.1 installed, then Trumpet Winsock and
probably Mosaic or Cello web browser.

And WinQVT and WinVN. And Eudora Light.

---
þ Synchronet þ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

Re: Introduction to computers
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Oct 12 2017 12:30 pm

I heard RLL was just an encoding scheme which worked on MFM drives, so RLL didn't actually require a different controller, just a drive reliable enough to handle RLL encoding.

RLL would work on some MFM drives and most RLL drives were just "defect-less" MFM drives that surpassed the MFM spec.

RLL needed a new controller, as it wrote more sectors per track in order to increase the space stored on the drive. A 20 megabyte MFM Seagate ST-225 and 30 megabyte RLL ST-238 were essentially the same drive.

---
þ Synchronet þ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

Re: Re: Introduction to computers
By: Jagossel to Jon Justvig on Fri Oct 27 2017 05:26 pm

Something like what you would get if your put SyncTERM's baud rate simulation down to 300? :D I never had the pleasure of using a 300 baud modem, I think we started out with 9600 when we got serious about BBSes.

Probably just gave my age away a bit, there. :)

I did 110 baud on a paper teletype to call BBSes, but mostly to see if it would work.

I was a telecom manager in a former life and used the TTYs to communicate with our PBXes; I was surprised that old Fido BBSes worked pretty well on paper - except that we used 132 character greenbar paper and Fido only used 40!

---
þ Synchronet þ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

using thunderbird...how would I configure that ? just type in the address
of mtlgeek.synchronet:8080 and such ? tahts it ?

Well this url is for a browser like firefox, for thunderbird you would need to set it on port 119 for nntp protocol. work very well with thunderbird.

Would have giving you a printscreen on my setup, but i’m not home, so i’m
using firefox on ios on power 8080 right now. But i’ve check this link https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating- newsgroup-account kind of minimal but ok. Usenet protocol is very well support in synchronet.

---
þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -

Re: Win 95
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Roadhog on Mon Oct 30 2017 09:53 am

To me Windows 95 was a DOS shell with a GUI interface.

It came at a time when system horsepower increased enough to make a task switching system work -- OS/2 could run circles around Windows on a 486, but once you started seeing Pentium MMX systems, I could run my DOS BBS well enough on Windows.

I think that implies that OS/2 was a bit more efficient though, at least for multi-tasking DOS applications. I actually had the impression that OS/2 was superior to Windows overall. I've more recently read articles talking about OS/2's GUI task queue being inefficient which could freeze the GUI, but I read that was fixed in (I believe) OS/2 Warp 4.0.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: Jon Justvig to MRO on Sun Oct 29 2017 06:34 pm

Re: Re: Intro to pc:: question on editing
By: MRO to Jon Justvig on Sun Oct 29 2017 12:03 am

MRO,

SlyEdit [ICE] is the best.

yeah it's like iceedit/quikedit in appearance.

Only real difference is there is not any kind of registration fees or keys to get it to work. It comes with SBBS, which I feel, has been a great addition to the software.

well there IS a real difference. it's an executable and slyedit is .js
also quikedit has other features. i'm not sure slyedit should 'come' with synchronet. i always thought 3rd party addons should stay separate.
including other people's stuff into the cvs certainly made it quite messy over the years.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::