Paulie420 wrote to All <=-
Care to debate an actual true quote from Donald Trump on 04/23/2020? Concerning COViD-19, during his daily briefing to the American people,
and I quote:
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And
is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside; or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs. It does a
tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check
that."
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------
So... while the left news has blown this out of proportion, by running headlines stating that Trump TOLD the American people or suggested that they try this, which he didn't... he was having his diahreah of the
mouth syndrome and following up with the head of the CDC, suggesting
that he supports further investigation into the matter. The head of the CDC was talking about UV light before this, and that bleach kills
COVID-19 in 5 minutes, and isopropyl alchohol kills it in a minute...
then Trump went on with that quote...
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
Care to debate an actual true quote from Donald Trump on 04/23/2020? Concerning COViD-19, during his daily briefing to the American people, and I quote:
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside; or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs. It does a tremendous number on t lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So... while the left news has blown this out of proportion, by running headlines stating that Trump TOLD the American people or suggested that they try this, which he didn't... he was having his diahreah of the mouth syndrom
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
Please, God, let this be over soon!!
|08Paulie|15420
|15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
there's actually chemicals that do this in vaccines.
now lysol is telling people not to drink it [but you can douche]
now lysol is telling people not to drink it [but you can douche]You /cannot/ douche with Lysol. This is also false. I mean, physically you can, just like physically you can drink it, but it is not safe for douching. In fact, Lysol advertised this in the early 20th century and they were sued many times for the results.
Paulie420 wrote to All <=-
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
Please, God, let this be over soon!!
there's actually chemicals that do this in vaccines.
False.
now lysol is telling people not to drink it [but you can douche]
You /cannot/ douche with Lysol. This is also false. I mean, physically you can, just like physically you can drink it, but it is not safe for douching. In fact, Lysol advertised this in the early 20th century and they were sued many times for the results.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: ryan to MRO on Sat Apr 25 2020 12:16 am
now lysol is telling people not to drink it [but you can douche]You /cannot/ douche with Lysol. This is also false. I mean, physically yo can, just like physically you can drink it, but it is not safe for douchi In fact, Lysol advertised this in the early 20th century and they were su many times for the results.
It is OK to clean my Ass with Lysol?
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
That's why he won the Presidency. He speaks his mind and has no concept of the >term "politically correct".People got tired of the political bullshit. Biden is
the best they got? Another life long politican that knows how to lay it on thic
Part of the problem is the Left. The Democrats have moved so far to the left that they have effectively become the Community party and have left many of their memebers wondering where their party went.
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
My take aways:
(1) He obviously did not suggest that we drink, ingest, or inject Clorox, Lysol, or any other currently-known disinfectant, despite what some news
(2) After reading the transcript more than once, I really don't know what his point was -- I can only figure that he was maybe wishing for something that worked as fast internally as bleach or alcohol do on surfaces?;
god damn you autistic motherfucker. cant you get a joke.
there are actual disinfectants in vaccines.
My take aways:
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
Paulie420 wrote to All <=-
Care to debate an actual true quote from Donald Trump on 04/23/2020?
Concerning COViD-19, during his daily briefing to the American
people, and I quote:
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute.
And is there a way we can do something like that by injection
inside; or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs. It
does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to
check that."
The left is nothing more than a shell of what it used to be. They're more machine now, twisted and evil. A republican I am not, but the left is nuts. A leftist I am not. Other than posessing the same genetic heritage, we are completely opposite. I will never vote for a leftist politician as long as I live. They might claim my 'votes' for many years after I die, though.
My take aways:
(1) He obviously did not suggest that we drink, ingest, or inject Clorox, Lysol, or any other currently-known disinfectant, despite what some news sources (and social media posters) are claiming;
(2) After reading the transcript more than once, I really don't know what his point was -- I can only figure that he was maybe wishing for something that worked as fast internally as bleach or alcohol do on surfaces?;
(3) One upon a time, Trump could legitimately needle Biden regarding his many gaffes... he has lost that edge as there is no way these words are not going to continue to haunt him. He has drawn even with Biden in this department. :)
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he works.
i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
... work on daydream like you pretend to do every year.
we are completely opposite. I will never vote for a leftist politician long as I live. They might claim my 'votes' for many years after I die, though.
problem is finding someone in the middle who america will get behind. ugh. i pretty 'in the middle' too... not too far either way, and i can't put all of check boxes in any one party.
screwed, as always.
well, he WAS suggesting that the doctors look into it; injections of disinfectants... and internal UV light treatment... however, i can look past that. trump is NOT a doctor...
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he works. i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
I loved how the economy was responding to him, pre-virus. He would have to screw up a lot more than this for me personally to think that Biden is a better choice.
Paulie420 wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: calcmandan to Paulie420 on Fri Apr 24 2020 02:18 pm
Paulie420 wrote to All <=-
Care to debate an actual true quote from Donald Trump on 04/23/2020?
Concerning COViD-19, during his daily briefing to the American
people, and I quote:
"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute.
And is there a way we can do something like that by injection
inside; or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs. It
does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to
check that."
The left is nothing more than a shell of what it used to be. They're more machine now, twisted and evil. A republican I am not, but the left is nuts. A leftist I am not. Other than posessing the same genetic heritage, we are completely opposite. I will never vote for a leftist politician as long as I live. They might claim my 'votes' for many years after I die, though.
problem is finding someone in the middle who america will get behind.
ugh. i'm pretty 'in the middle' too... not too far either way, and i
can't put all of my check boxes in any one party.
screwed, as always.
well he's asking questions. nothing wrong with that. AND there are disinfectants in our vaccines. and if putting a uv lightbulb up
someone's ass works to kill the virus, bend over, betty.
Dumas Walker wrote to DR. WHAT <=-
The ones that think wonder about it. The ones that follow blindly do
not.
MRO wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
there are actual disinfectants in vaccines.
MRO wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that whole thing.
calcmandan wrote to Paulie420 <=-
You know, in 2008 California was already given to obama before I got
off work. This meant that it mattered not, in any way, how I voted and
it gave me a big feeling like votes don't count in states like
California. 2016 was another one of those situations where LA had so
many more millions of (harvested) votes that they completely hijacked
the state. They've had to remove many of those votes the last few years due to lawsuits, but I"m afraid this corona bullshit has given them a weapon to cheat the system again.
Either way, California is a corrupt state that makes national elections meaningless.
well, he WAS suggesting that the doctors look into it; injections of disinfecta
ts... and internal UV light treatment... however, i can look past that. trump i
NOT a doctor...
problem is, he's not much of a president either. sure, if there was no COViD-19
emergency issue, his unpolitcal business shrewdness might have gotten America s
mewhere better than when he took office.... however,
i am really worried that he is the commander in chief under this historic world
emergency.
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Paulie420 <=-
You know, in 2008 California was already given to obama before I got
off work. This meant that it mattered not, in any way, how I voted and
it gave me a big feeling like votes don't count in states like
California. 2016 was another one of those situations where LA had so
many more millions of (harvested) votes that they completely hijacked
the state. They've had to remove many of those votes the last few years due to lawsuits, but I"m afraid this corona bullshit has given them a weapon to cheat the system again.
Either way, California is a corrupt state that makes national elections meaningless.
When California made ballot harvesting legal (for those who don't know, ballet harvesting is when a third party is allowed to take ballots to nursing homes, and such, and collect them for the polls - without any supervision or checks), places that had been Republican strongholds suddenly went Democrat.
But the Dems would like us to believe that voter fraud doesn't exist
and voter ID is racist.
The Democrat political machine has California pretty much locked up.
It doesn't matter how you vote: it will always be a Democrat win. Even
if dead people need to vote too.
Re: not my president?
By: Paulie420 to Dumas Walker on Sat Apr 25 2020 09:20 pm
well, he WAS suggesting that the doctors look into it; injections of
disinfectants... and internal UV light treatment... however, i can
look past that. trump is NOT a doctor...
well he's asking questions. nothing wrong with that. AND there are disinfectants in our vaccines. and if putting a uv lightbulb up someone's ass works to kill the virus, bend over, betty.
Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-
there are actual disinfectants in vaccines.
And alcohol is a disinfectant.
How many people here have a few glasses of "disinfectant" every
so often?
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
i dont really have a political affiliation but i'm pretty sure i'm done voting >democrat. they dont follow through on their promises and just do what the >party wants.
both know that he's a fucking idiot and; acutally, no i dont agree with you all. lol.
I don't mind that hes tough, shrewd, and ready for change in america - but w those titles, hes a complete moron too.
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
While we're on the subject of election fraud, how about the delegate recount scam? They nearly succeeded in cheating Al Gore into office in 2000. They succeeded in getting the loser into the Governor's office in Washington in 2002 and Al Franken got in the Senate that way too.
Dumas Walker wrote to PAULIE420 <=-
Back to snopes, even after including the quote where he clearly does
not say "inject disinfectans (or bleach)," right under it, whoever
wrote up the article paraphrases it in such a way that, if you only
read what they wrote without the benefit of the quote, would indeed be TRUE.
I know some folks who feel like their site is no longer definative. I
can remember when it sure seemed to be, but I really question who they have writing for them now.
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
While we're on the subject of election fraud, how about the delegate recount scam? They nearly succeeded in cheating Al Gore into office in 2000. They succeeded in getting the loser into the Governor's office in Washington in 2002 and Al Franken got in the Senate that way too.
And there's talk that they *wanted* Biden to be the only candidate, but not for reasons you might think.
At the last minute, they could find something that would make Biden "unelectable" (like he's not that right now) and then replace him with
a person of the DNC's choosing. Completely bypassing the primary
process.
But, then Democrats always did think that rules were for someone else
to follow.
When California made ballot harvesting legal (for those who don't know, ballet >harvesting is when a third party is allowed to take ballots to nursing homes, >and such, and collect them for the polls - without any supervision or checks), >places that had been Republican strongholds suddenly went Democrat.
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
While we're on the subject of election fraud, how about the delegate recount scam? They nearly succeeded in cheating Al Gore into office in 2000. They succeeded in getting the loser into the Governor's office in Washington in 2002 and Al Franken got in the Senate that way too.
And there's talk that they *wanted* Biden to be the only candidate, but not for reasons you might think.
At the last minute, they could find something that would make Biden "unelectable" (like he's not that right now) and then replace him with a person of the DNC's choosing. Completely bypassing the primary process.
But, then Democrats always did think that rules were for someone else to follow.
They demonstrate that during every election cycle. Just look at all the transparent in-your-face scams they pull. Do you remember the coin toss deba in 2016 when they gave Hillary all of the delgates Bernie won during a prima night?
... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.worldDo they not want to win? I live in Australia, so I don't follow too closely, but their behaviour is beyond bizarre. They can't be that ignorant of what Americans actually want?
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: calcmandan to Dr. What on Wed Apr 29 2020 10:40 am
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
While we're on the subject of election fraud, how about the delegate recount scam? They nearly succeeded in cheating Al Gore into office in 2000. They succeeded in getting the loser into the Governor's office in Washington in 2002 and Al Franken got in the Senate that way too.
And there's talk that they *wanted* Biden to be the only candidate, but not for reasons you might think.
At the last minute, they could find something that would make Biden "unelectable" (like he's not that right now) and then replace him with a person of the DNC's choosing. Completely bypassing the primary process.
But, then Democrats always did think that rules were for someone else to follow.
They demonstrate that during every election cycle. Just look at all the transparent in-your-face scams they pull. Do you remember the coin toss deba in 2016 when they gave Hillary all of the delgates Bernie won during a prima night?
... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
Do they not want to win? I live in Australia, so I don't follow too closely, but their behaviour is beyond bizarre. They can't be that ignorant of what Americans actually want?
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: calcmandan to Dr. What on Wed Apr 29 2020 10:40 am
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
While we're on the subject of election fraud, how about the delegate recount scam? They nearly succeeded in cheating Al Gore into office in 2000. They succeeded in getting
the loser into the Governor's office in Washington in 2002 and Al Franken got in the Senate that way too.
And there's talk that they *wanted* Biden to be the only candidate, but not for reasons you might think.
At the last minute, they could find something that would make Biden "unelectable" (like he's not that right now) and then replace him with a person of the DNC's choosing.
Completely bypassing the primary process.
But, then Democrats always did think that rules were for someone else to follow.
They demonstrate that during every election cycle. Just look at all the transparent in-your-face scams they pull. Do you remember the coin toss deba in 2016 when they gave Hill
all of the delgates Bernie won during a prima night?
... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
Do they not want to win? I live in Australia, so I don't follow too closely, but their behaviour is beyond bizarre. They can't be that ignorant of what Americans actually
want?
They've lost and dno't even know it. The thing is this, here's a cruel joke: they want trump to win. their online website revenue has gone through the roof since the election. The
secretly love him. They would've lost their pants if he didn't get in. The discovered that if they simply write everything in negative terms, thus reinforcing the nature of their
viewers, they'll make money on ads.
it worked.
Read 'hate inc' It's a book that exposes it and it's written by a mainstream liberal journalist.
... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-/snip
Interesting. Hatred of Trump is clearly a business model for the
media, but its interesting to think that perhaps are using Trump for business, rather than power purposes.
I see it partly as a lack of discipline. Sometimes the best form of attack, is not to attack, and Trumps opponents simply cannot help themselves. They MUST attack. He's used to this his advantage many times.
At the last minute, they could find something that would make Biden >"unelectable" (like he's not that right now) and then replace him with a person
of the DNC's choosing. Completely bypassing the primary process.
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-/snip
Interesting. Hatred of Trump is clearly a business model for the media, but its interesting to think that perhaps are using Trump for business, rather than power purposes.
The media? It's all business. How else do you manage to HATE for four solid years? Their power is done. This is why they no longer have the power to ste national elections like they did for Bill Clinton. They can still control th state-level elections. Evidence of this is the fact that we had two failed recall attempts on Newsom in California. The state press gave it no attentio and both efforts failed. So they still have a kernel of power.
I see it partly as a lack of discipline. Sometimes the best form of attack, is not to attack, and Trumps opponents simply cannot help themselves. They MUST attack. He's used to this his advantage many times.
Discpline? My opinion is the contrary, they've been really loyal to the hate mongering. It's been nonstop and why not if it brings in the money? All Trum needs to do is make a tweet and they go bonkers. He uses them like a toy and they fall for it everytime. Their audience eats it up. The leftist viewershi is the big pawn in the game. They're loud and hold negative power.
And if you want to talk about how the left eats itself, just look at what th did to Jordan Peterson. He's one of them and they literally attack him at ev angle. I feel bad for him.
... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
They demonstrate that during every election cycle. Just look at all the transparent in-your-face scams they pull. Do you remember the coin toss debacle in 2016 when they gave Hillary all of the delgates Bernie won during a primary night?
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-
Do they not want to win? I live in Australia, so I don't follow too closely, but their behaviour is beyond bizarre. They can't be that ignorant of what Americans actually want?
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
They demonstrate that during every election cycle. Just look at all the transparent in-your-face scams they pull. Do you remember the coin toss debacle in 2016 when they gave Hillary all of the delgates Bernie won during a primary night?
Yes, I remember. But they don't even wait for an election cycle.
I'm in Michigan and our governor just decided to seize dictator power
for herself.
To put it simply, her authority for executive orders expired last
night. The leislature decided to not renew that authority. So she
took the authority anyway.
The next few weeks will be interesting as the legislature takes her to court.
But in any case, the next few election cycles will be murder for the Democrats.
They only look like a bunch of power hungry elitists.
Who am I kidding? They **are** a bunch of power hungry elitists.
To put it simply, her authority for executive orders expired last night. The leislature decided to not renew that authority. So she took the authority anyway.
The next few weeks will be interesting as the legislature takes her to court.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
Boraxman wrote to calcmandan <=-
Do they not want to win? I live in Australia, so I don't follow too closely, but their behaviour is beyond bizarre. They can't be that ignorant of what Americans actually want?
The Democrats have been putting policies in place for decades now that effectively create a dependant class. This class keeps voting Democrat
to get the hand-outs that the Dems offer - and in many cases, these
people cannot or will not do for themselves.
The left-wing groups have taken over education and media. So we have generations now that have grown up with re-written history. We
actually have large numbers of people who think that Socialism can
work. And the Media reinforces this with fake news and movies that
cast certain groups in a bad light.
In the U.S. we have what's called the Electoral College to elect the president.
To keep this simple, this is a system that makes sure that the
president is the candidiate that has the **widest** support - not the
one that gets the most votes.
The Dems have the most people on their side (which just shows how stupidity breeds). But those people mostly life in big cities - which means that even though there are lots of votes, there's only a few electoral votes - so they can't win. They are trying to subvert that
now.
What's interesting is that COVID-19 is hitting cities much harder. I doubt it will get rid of that many voters, but it may change many of
them from Democrat to Republican because the mayors of those cities are doing really bad jobs.
... Please save the above drivel for future reference!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.com
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
I've seen scuttlebutt about your governor. Many people I know see politicians using this virus as an opportunity to seize power. It's disgusting how obvious they are.
We decided to take this lockdown opportunity to heal. My relationship
is stronger too. The neighborhood kids are playing outside again,
whereas before they were inside on their devices. Smog is relatively cleared up. Our weather changed.
I hopeful that after this mess is done, people will think twice about electing >these tyrant-wannabees.
They probably won't, but I can be hopeful.
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
I've seen scuttlebutt about your governor. Many people I know see politicians using this virus as an opportunity to seize power. It's disgusting how obvious they are.
It is. And it's not just here in Michigan.
I hopeful that after this mess is done, people will think twice about electing these tyrant-wannabees.
They probably won't, but I can be hopeful.
We decided to take this lockdown opportunity to heal. My relationship
is stronger too. The neighborhood kids are playing outside again,
whereas before they were inside on their devices. Smog is relatively cleared up. Our weather changed.
Yes, there will be some big changes in society because of this. I
believe that most of it will be positive.
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
We decided to take this lockdown opportunity to heal. My
relationship is stronger too. The neighborhood kids are playing
outside again, whereas before they were inside on their devices.
Yes, there will be some big changes in society because of this. I believe that most of it will be positive.
Our (D) Guv could tell people that eating dog doo would prevent the Wuhan Coronavirus, and I would immediately know of at least 2-5 people that woul be out doing that as soon as his presser was over. They might not admit it, but they'd do it.
Lol, no, you don't immediately know of at least 2-5 people that would eat dog shit because a democrat told them to. Give me a break.
Lol, no, you don't immediately know of at least 2-5 people that would
eat dog shit because a democrat told them to. Give me a break.
I most certainly am positive I do know at least 2. :) Not just any Democrat, but our governor for sure. They will do anything. He. Says. Period.
well, he WAS suggesting that the doctors look into it; injections of
disinfectants... and internal UV light treatment... however, i can
look past that. trump is NOT a doctor...
well he's asking questions. nothing wrong with that. AND there are disinfectants in our vaccines. and if putting a uv lightbulb up someone's ass works to kill the virus, bend over, betty.
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he
works. i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
I loved how the economy was responding to him, pre-virus. He would
have to screw up a lot more than this for me personally to think that
Biden is a better choice.
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that whole thing.
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
Yes, there will be some big changes in society because of this. I
believe that most of it will be positive.
How are you doing?
Paulie420 wrote to Dr. What <=-
I hope the both of yous got it right.. without being too
right-political, I *am* a bit concerned with the way some of the left-governors are grabbing for power.
user level depending on factors... but what I see is some governors
really enjoying the power.
ryan wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
Our (D) Guv could tell people that eating dog doo would prevent the Wuhan Coronavirus, and I would immediately know of at least 2-5 people that woul be out doing that as soon as his presser was over. They might not admit it, but they'd do it.
Lol, no, you don't immediately know of at least 2-5 people that would
eat dog shit because a democrat told them to. Give me a break.
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
it's pathetic they're grasping at anything no matter how weak it is.
the support for our president is strong and that scares the hell out
of them.
How many people will decide that they like cooking their own food? And what will that to do restaurants? At least some will be gone.
I see lots of people walking. What happens if they decide that they like that instead of going to the gym? Our gym may not survive.
DR. WHAT wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
The left-wing groups have taken over education and media. So we have generations now that have grown up with re-written history. We
actually have large numbers of people who think that Socialism can
work. And the Media reinforces this with fake news and movies that
cast certain groups in a bad light.
I could go on, but that's what we worry about. We certainly don't need to worry about COVID-19 because the only people who believe it's the Zombie Apocalypse are the lefties (who, funnily, only pay lip-service to the health "rules" put in place). All the doctors say that we could have gotten back t work a couple of weeks ago.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dr. What to calcmandan on Tue May 05 2020 11:24 am
How many people will decide that they like cooking their own food? And what will that to do restaurants? At least some will be gone.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you wouldn't really want to eat a restaurant all the time anyway. Many restaurants are still open for take-ou only, and there are people buying food from them.
I see lots of people walking. What happens if they decide that they lik that instead of going to the gym? Our gym may not survive.
It would be interesting if people realize they could meet their exercise nee for free that way rather than paying for a gym membership.
Nightfox
I don't think I would go as far as Dumas, but I do personally know too man people who believe everything that their corrupt "leaders" tell them - no matter how absurd.
I most certainly am positive I do know at least 2. :) Not just any Democrat, but our governor for sure. They will do anything. He. Says. Period.
I'm sorry, but this is too funny. Well, the funny bit is that I tend to believe
Dumas!! Hahaha..
There was some back and forth banter on another MsgNet today, and it brings out
the worst in me but I LoL everytime the right tries to bait the left with 'but
thought you were all about tolerance'...
Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Apr 27 2020 01:19 am
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he
works. i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
I loved how the economy was responding to him, pre-virus. He would
have to screw up a lot more than this for me personally to think that
Biden is a better choice.
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that whole thing.
Seriously I think Biden is ready to check into the oldfolks home anyday now. the poor guy can't even get a coherent thought to slip past his tongue.
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
Yes, there will be some big changes in society because of this. I believe that most of it will be positive.
How are you doing?
Overall, feeling lucky. I'm one of the few who are still working as is my wife. So we still have a normal income. So far, this shutdown is really mo of an inconvience for us (again, feeling lucky about that).
But we do worry about some of the things that we used to do and whether or n they will be around when Governor Whit-less "allows" us to get back to norma
How many people will decide that they like cooking their own food? And what will that to do restaurants? At least some will be gone.
My wife and I are ballroom dancers. We wonder how many will return to the dance studio once they can. If not enough people return, the studio may go of business.
I see lots of people walking. What happens if they decide that they like th instead of going to the gym? Our gym may not survive.
I could go on, but that's what we worry about. We certainly don't need to worry about COVID-19 because the only people who believe it's the Zombie Apocalypse are the lefties (who, funnily, only pay lip-service to the health "rules" put in place). All the doctors say that we could have gotten back t work a couple of weeks ago.
... ......64..65...66...67...68...69... "STOP RIGHT THERE!"
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dr. What to calcmandan on Tue May 05 2020 11:24 am
How many people will decide that they like cooking their own food? And what will that to do restaurants? At least some will be gone.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing are people buying food from them.
I see lots of people walking. What happens if they decide that they lik that instead of going to the gym? Our gym may not survive.
It would be interesting if people realize they could meet their exercise nee
Nightfox
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Paulie420 on Mon Apr 27 2020 01:17 am
well, he WAS suggesting that the doctors look into it; injections of
disinfectants... and internal UV light treatment... however, i can
look past that. trump is NOT a doctor...
well he's asking questions. nothing wrong with that. AND there are disinfectants in our vaccines. and if putting a uv lightbulb up someone's ass works to kill the virus, bend over, betty.
Well the pathetics like Hillary and Biden and others on the left that swoop in for what they think is the kill because our president pondered
a few questions, He didn't say anything as matter of factly it was all conjecture thinking out loud.
it's pathetic they're grasping at anything no matter how weak it is.
the support for our president is strong and that scares the hell out
of them.
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Apr 27 2020 01:19 am
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he
works. i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
I loved how the economy was responding to him, pre-virus. He would
have to screw up a lot more than this for me personally to think that
Biden is a better choice.
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that whole thing.
Seriously I think Biden is ready to check into the oldfolks home anyday now. the poor guy can't even get a coherent thought to slip past his tongue.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you wouldn't really want to eat a restaurant all the time anyway. Many restaurants are still open for take-ou only, and there are people buying food from them.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dr. What to calcmandan on Tue May 05 2020 11:24 am
I could go on, but that's what we worry about. We certainly don't need to worry about COVID-19 because the only people who believe it's the Zombie Apocalypse are the lefties (who, funnily, only pay lip-service to the health "rules" put in place). All the doctors say that we could have gotten back t work a couple of weeks ago.
Hello,
I am far from a leftie, but the virus is no joke by any means, in my opinion. It is causing many hospital services to crash and burn (not
that you need much to crash and burn a Spanish Sacyl Hospital, but still...)
---
= Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
i work a lot so i'm too exhausted to cook for myself. so i was getting food from restaurants. take out isnt always idea. there's some places that dont answer the phones or their online systems suck or they have no online ordering.
take out with covid 19 isnt the same as regular take out.
it just sucks.
There was some back and forth banter on another MsgNet today, and it
brings out the worst in me but I LoL everytime the right tries to bait
the left with 'but thought you were all about tolerance'...
Because you know that they are not? :)
Dr. What wrote to Paulie420 <=-
But like I said above, we have a large number of people today that
think that gov't control is a **good** thing. They haven't been
educated that whenver the gov't does something, the always mess it up. (The COVID-19 response is a great example.)
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dr. What to calcmandan on Tue May 05 2020 11:24 am
How many people will decide that they like cooking their own food? And what will that to do restaurants? At least some will be gone.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing to do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you wouldn't really want to eat at a restaurant all the time anyway. Many restaurants are still open for take-out only, and there are people buying food from
them.
I see lots of people walking. What happens if they decide that they like that instead of going to the gym? Our gym may not survive.
It would be interesting if people realize they could meet their
exercise needs for free that way rather than paying for a gym
membership.
Dr. What wrote to ryan <=-
ryan wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
Our (D) Guv could tell people that eating dog doo would prevent the Wuhan Coronavirus, and I would immediately know of at least 2-5 people that woul be out doing that as soon as his presser was over. They might not admit it, but they'd do it.
Lol, no, you don't immediately know of at least 2-5 people that would
eat dog shit because a democrat told them to. Give me a break.
I don't think I would go as far as Dumas, but I do personally know too many people who believe everything that their corrupt "leaders" tell
them - no matter how absurd.
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
If you don't mind frozen foods & meals from the store, those are often much cheaper than getting food from restaurants, and can be an option
for a quick meal at home.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
The virus is serious, or had the potential to be serious, but the response has been panic and overreaction. The West first started trying to deny thempact, and pushing people not to close themselves off, then when it appeared that the proverbial poop was going to hit the fan, we saw unrestrained panic. I won't forget how people were arguing that closing the borders in the early stages was the WRONG thing to do.
Personally, I would rather take my chances with the virus than have our government realise they can exercise any arbitrary (and perhaps illegal) power and have the population complicit and unquestioning as to the wisdom of it. It really is quite shocking how little scepticism there is of these lockdown decisions, which are often obviously arbtirary and poorly thought out.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an
occasional thing to do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you
I'm completely with you here. I also prefer to cook at home not just for the reduced cost, but also for the flavor.
I just hope the restaurants have a chance to recover from this. One such restaurant owner friend of mine has been shut since mid-March because they're Chinese and sustained a few attacks by complete jerks who, somehow, associated this pandemic to them. It was blatantly short-sighted and racist. They're lucky that they've been really conservative with thier money because they're treating this as their first vacation in decades.
Simply put, because both sides are just as mean and pissy as the other. Both. ly one gives us the in of tolerance to attack; in the same way. LOLolOLol...
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing to
do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you wouldn't really want to eat at a
restaurant all the time anyway. Many restaurants are still open for take-out o
ly, and there are people buying food from them.
Same. I just kind of groan when people try to say something is literal when they mean figurative. :P hehe.
If you don't mind frozen foods & meals from the store, those are
often much cheaper than getting food from restaurants, and can be an
option for a quick meal at home.
Yeah especially pizzas. Last year I discovered costco's pizza four pack for $11. Great deal.
When I grabbed the first one, I thought how crappy. It didn't look like they provided enough
pepperoni. After taking them off and rearranging them, the pizza was completely covered.
Add about a half can of black olives, a handful of extra mozza with a sprinkle of fresh
tomato, it's a comfy dinner for two at roughly $4.
We do that about once a week. Then we cozy up on the couch for a movie.
Nightfox wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: calcmandan to Nightfox on Wed May 06 2020 07:01 am
If you don't mind frozen foods & meals from the store, those are
often much cheaper than getting food from restaurants, and can be an
option for a quick meal at home.
Yeah especially pizzas. Last year I discovered costco's pizza four pack for $11. Great deal.
When I grabbed the first one, I thought how crappy. It didn't look like they provided enough
pepperoni. After taking them off and rearranging them, the pizza was completely covered.
Add about a half can of black olives, a handful of extra mozza with a sprinkle of fresh
tomato, it's a comfy dinner for two at roughly $4.
We do that about once a week. Then we cozy up on the couch for a movie.
That's cool. I tend to like pretty much all the food Costco sells. I found their pizza is so large though, it barely fit in my oven.
Seriously I think Biden is ready to check into the oldfolks home anyday now. the poor guy can't even get a coherent thought to slip past his tongue.
I most certainly am positive I do know at least 2. :) Not just any Democrat, but our governor for sure. They will do anything. He. Says. Period.
It's funny that everyone made fun of Bush Jr. for things like "Strategery" and "misunderestimate". Now we have a President that can't even say "United States" during a State of the Union speech without sounding like a drunk hooker.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Wed May 06 2020 09:32 am
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
The virus is serious, or had the potential to be serious, but the response has been panic and overreaction. The West first started trying to deny thempact, and pushing people not to close themselves off, then when it appeared that the proverbial poop was going to hit the fan, we saw unrestrained panic. I won't forget how people were arguing that closing the borders in the early stages was the WRONG thing to do.
Personally, I would rather take my chances with the virus than have our government realise they can exercise any arbitrary (and perhaps illegal) power and have the population complicit and unquestioning as to the wisdom of it. It really is quite shocking how little scepticism there is of these lockdown decisions, which are often obviously arbtirary and poorly thought out.
I think your second paragraph was well said. Yes, Coronavirus is a serious health threat.. yes, we need the protective gear and our society to implement smart social distancing when possible, and for them to be intelligent when we have to be closer..
But I think that the respnse to the threat has been worse than the virus itself. That doesn't mean I'm an idiot that wants to give you a hug... I want to use PPE, I want to learn a 'new normal' that attempts to stop the virus, I want my neighbors and society I have to come in contact with to be intelligent and keep distances, not handshake, wash frequently and wear face coverings... moreso, I make my own disinfectant wipes and go crazy with them (overboard, even) throughout my day. YES, I want MORE intelligence here -- TELL me what works, what to do, how to protect myself -- but make no mistake about it... you CANNOT take my freedoms and expect me to lay down and take it. You cannot treat me differently than other locales.
We have a constitution, and for many of our society, that has gone out the f**king window -- the cure has been worse than the virus.
The insanity must end; and I hope for INTELLIGENT ways to urb the virus, while not throwing the documents that made the United States what it is out the window.
SMH!
|08Paulie|15420
|15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
|14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07
era. We all know McCain: he lost easily to W who at the time was the most ha conservative on the left. In terms of election relevance, the press is dead. terms of angering their audience, the press is the most powerful.
Ignore the press unless you're on the left. Otherwise, keep reading their 'coverage.' They profit off you.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue May 05 2020 08:25 pm
i work a lot so i'm too exhausted to cook for myself. so i was getting food from restaurants. take out isnt always idea. there's some places t dont answer the phones or their online systems suck or they have no onl ordering.
take out with covid 19 isnt the same as regular take out.
it just sucks.
If you don't mind frozen foods & meals from the store, those are often much cheaper than getting food from restaurants, and can be an option for a quick meal at home.
MRO wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: calcmandan to Denn on Wed May 06 2020 01:29 am
era. We all know McCain: he lost easily to W who at the time was the most ha conservative on the left. In terms of election relevance, the press is dead. terms of angering their audience, the press is the most powerful.
Ignore the press unless you're on the left. Otherwise, keep reading their 'coverage.' They profit off you.
there even have been hidden cameras at time with reporters venting
about how sick they are of the ridiculious stories and bashing. it's
all about the money.
it's certainly not helping politics. well it's helping trump. if
trump's opposition spends all its time just mudslinging, they cant get their point across. trump is a pro at mud slinging AND getting his
point across.
If you don't mind frozen foods & meals from the store, those are often
much cheaper than getting food from restaurants, and can be an option
for a quick meal at home.
well i work very hard, so i have to keep my morale up. getting good food is one of the ways that works for people.
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an occasional thing to do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you wouldn't really want to eat at a restaurant all the time anyway. Many restaurants are still open for take-out only, and there are people buying food from
them.
It would be interesting if people realize they could meet their
exercise needs for free that way rather than paying for a gym
membership.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
I am far from a leftie, but the virus is no joke by any means, in my opinion. It is causing many hospital services to crash and burn (not
that you need much to crash and burn a Spanish Sacyl Hospital, but still...)
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
What part of the mitten do you reside in? I'm in Buchanan
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
People have said that very thing to me the last few days. I read one
such reply to my spouse when it said something to the effect that 'the government way leads to peace while the business way leads to misery.' Some such woo.
We laughed ourselves silly.
This is what I've gathered from a few leftists in my life who've
descended into the maw of socialism. They're old friends and I love
them. They feel like history got it wrong. "If I were in charge, I'd
get it right." Somehow, millions dead over a political system isn't convincing evidence that it is a failed ethos. To this day it is
shocking that any American lives life without having discarded
socialism as failed political theory.
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
I was beginning to think California would do the same for our whacky governor but some actually went out and protested. I had to see it to believe it.
Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
I don't think a gym is a real substitute for "free" workouts if you are really serious about it. I mean, I live in rural-land where I can
exercise and do horse stuff, harvest stuff, garden maintenance and the like, but most city people can't do much other than walking. They can't buy exercising machines and stuff them in an appartment 50 m2 big, if
you know what I mean.
I think restaurants, bars and barbers are a bit more at risk. See, in Andaluca, most people has breakfast at a bar. In fact, I read in some forum that many people was missing their bar breakfast more than
working or, you know, the possibility of going out of their house. ANd that is the sort of thing that could be lost if the lockdown was held
for long enough.
Re: not my president?
By: Denn to MRO on Tue May 05 2020 01:37 am
Seriously I think Biden is ready to check into the oldfolks home anyday now. the poor guy can't even get a coherent thought to slip past his tongue.
Have you listened to Trump ramble when he's just trying to fill time? He ha
It's funny that everyone made fun of Bush Jr. for things like "Strategery" a
DaiTengu
... Message from God: Universe rebooting in 5 sec. Please log out.
Reminds me of how many times I heard the Obama worshippers talk about how eloquent and smart he was. All I noticed was he was smart enough to keep his mouth shut and not get dragged into games like Trump and Biden do.
I most certainly am positive I do know at least 2. :) Not just any Democrat, but our governor for sure. They will do anything. He. Says. Period.
There are stupid people in both parties. For instance, the guy who died, and h
is wife who nearly did from swallowing fish tank cleaner because Trump kept tal
ing about chloroquine.
I read a very good article which stated that one of the big failings was that were using the precautionary principle instead of risk management. That is, rather than manage risks so we can still have the benefits of society, we default so simply shutting things down in order not to have to manage risk, bu
eliminate it completely. Being in a profession where risk management plays a
Dr. What wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Dr. What <=-
I was beginning to think California would do the same for our whacky governor but some actually went out and protested. I had to see it to believe it.
There's a surprising number of people who if you asked 8 years ago
whether they were left or right, they would say "left". But if you
asked them today, they would say that the right has more in common with them.
People aren't leaving the Democrat Party. The Party is leaving the people.
I always thought eating out at/from restaurants was only an
occasional thing to do. Cooking at home is less expensive, so you
wouldn't really want to eat at a restaurant all the time anyway.
Many restaurants are still open for take-out only, and there are
people buying food from them.
There's the social part of eating out.
For my wife and I, eating out is an occasional thing. But I know others to do so every day and it's less for food and more for socializing.
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
What part of the mitten do you reside in? I'm in Buchanan
Grand Rapids area.
It's interesting right now because the city of Grand Rapids is very Left (th want to become a sanctuary city), but most of the people in the surrounding areas and many of the judges in the area are not Left.
... Well, to be frank, I'd have to change my name.
I've noticed that people who like socialism tend to fall into 3 groups:
1. The power hungry. Despite the name, socialism is not "rule by the people It's "rule by the gov't". Those people want to be the gov't and, hence, the rulers.
2. The elite. These are the people who you mentioned say "If I were in char I'd get it right." They are naive and actually believe that their naive ide will work, and that the power hungry will actually let them implement their ideas.
3. The lazy and the stupid. Hey! Free stuff!
... The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-that
I read a very good article which stated that one of the big failings was
were using the precautionary principle instead of risk management. That is, rather than manage risks so we can still have the benefits of society, we default so simply shutting things down in order not to have to manage risk,bu
eliminate it completely. Being in a profession where risk management playsa
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that they have not eliminated the risk,
they have only delayed it. Eventually they are going to have to take
the risk of opening everything back up and then seeing what happens.
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ "I'm cold, and there are wolves after me!"-Granpa
Simpson
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
My take aways:I wouldn't say he's stupid... more that he has no filter. Eevery time
The left news will create something where there isn't...
Donald Trump isn't intelligent and can't shutup to save his life.
Please, God, let this be over soon!!
problem is finding someone in the middle who america will get behind. ugh. i'm pretty 'in the middle' too... not too far either way, and i can't put all of my check boxes in any one party.
well he was just asking questions or brainstorming. that's how he works.
i still think he's a great president [surprisingly]
I loved how the economy was responding to him, pre-virus. He would have to screw up a lot more than this for me personally to think that Biden is a better choice.
i dont really have a political affiliation but i'm pretty sure i'm done voting
democrat. they dont follow through on their promises and just do what the party wants.
i know the same can be said for other politicians, but this is something
that i watch closely and i'm just sick of taking a chance to see it backfire.
well he's asking questions. nothing wrong with that. AND there are disinfectants in our vaccines. and if putting a uv lightbulb up someone's ass
works to kill the virus, bend over, betty.
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that whole thing.
Grand Rapids area.
It's interesting right now because the city of Grand Rapids is very Left (they
want to become a sanctuary city), but most of the people in the surrounding areas and many of the judges in the area are not Left.
Maybe it falls under the elite, but there's a group I like to call the psuedo intellectual. They have considerable education and tend to appear to be well read, however they as if they are a different species than the common man, and the common man is incapable of self rule. Of course, they believe they are above the common man in many ways, and deserve their own set of laws.
They are starting to open things up in Australia, but our state premier is mor
risk adverse and wants to keep things closed. No matter what you do, unless you eliminate the virus 100%, once you allow things to go back to normal, its exponential growth
will begin all over again. I get the impression that people don't want to accept that we will inevitably have to go through this all over again.
On 05-03-20 11:57, Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
They are starting to open things up in Australia, but our state premier
is more risk adverse and wants to keep things closed. No matter what
you do, unless you eliminate the virus 100%, once you allow things to
go back to normal, its exponential growth
will begin all over again. I get the impression that people don't want
to accept that we will inevitably have to go through this all over
again.
On 05-08-20 11:06, Tracker1 wrote to Paulie420 <=-
Dan Crenshaw might be a good option in 2024. No ideas beyond that,
most of the left up and commers are *really* left, and a lot of the established right are just cooky.
On 05-08-20 11:12, Tracker1 wrote to MRO <=-
UV treatment is showing some promise. Not sure about the efficacy
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-03-20 11:57, Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
They are starting to open things up in Australia, but our state premier
is more risk adverse and wants to keep things closed. No matter what
you do, unless you eliminate the virus 100%, once you allow things to
go back to normal, its exponential growth
I think he's being prudent, especially with the cluster still being investigated. We'
ll know more next week on the state government's plans.
will begin all over again. I get the impression that people don't want
to accept that we will inevitably have to go through this all over
again.
I think a lot of people would rather see a gradual and hopefully longer term easing than a quick easing, only to go into lockdown again down
the track.
... I was in Chicago once. Blew me away.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
= Synchronet = Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
On 05-09-20 13:48, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Perhaps, but there is a significant economic and social cost, and we
could better target our restrictions to protect the elderly and those
most susceptible.
Unless you remove the virus completely, or develop a vaccine and distribute it, it will come back. Remember, the virus spread to what
it is from only one person. So as long as there is someone with it, growth will begin again when restrictions stop. Whether those restrictions come off gradually or suddenly won't affect the growth
when they end.
but he expanded the war machine instead. Eisenhower was so right.
Sounds like the US needs what we'd call here "the sensible centre" - neither particularly left or right leaning government, somewhere in the middle.
I wonder how effective some of the simply things like good old sunlight (which has UV in it) and fresh air will be. I did read somewhere that there were some outdoor "hospitals" during the 1918-19 Spanish flu outbreak that helped people recover. In any case, I can't see it doing harm (provided there was appropriate medical supervision as needed).
On 4/26/2020 11:19 PM, MRO wrote:
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that wh thing.
It'll be like Mike Tyson fighting an 8yo...
Biden can't manage to string a coherent sentence together. I'll take
the babbling asshole over the babbling idiot... would love a better
option, Biden isn't it.
I had some hopes for Obama, I didn't like him because of his stance on
the Constitution being something to circumvent vs work within. I had at least hoped he'd follow through with reducing military presence, etc...
but he expanded the war machine instead. Eisenhower was so right.
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
Maybe it falls under the elite, but there's a group I like to call the psuedo intellectual. They have considerable education and tend to
appear to be well read, however they as if they are a different species than the common man, and the common man is incapable of self rule. Of course, they believe they are above the common man in many ways, and deserve their own set of laws.
Indeed. I am wondering if the DNC is going to let Biden babble for a while and then pull a fast one to replace him at the "convention" (or whatever they are going to have this year) with someone they think is more viable,
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Tracker1 to MRO on Fri May 08 2020 11:11 am
but he expanded the war machine instead. Eisenhower was so right.
What was Eisenhower right about? Just curious.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-09-20 13:48, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Perhaps, but there is a significant economic and social cost, and we
could better target our restrictions to protect the elderly and those
most susceptible.
That seems to be the goto, but I don't know thatr's enough, because it appears we don't know really who's susceptible, there's more coming to light.
Unless you remove the virus completely, or develop a vaccine and distribute it, it will come back. Remember, the virus spread to what
it is from only one person. So as long as there is someone with it, growth will begin again when restrictions stop. Whether those restrictions come off gradually or suddenly won't affect the growth
when they end.
But we should be able to get a slower increase in growth rate if they
come off gradually, then applo increased local restrictions as
necessary. Obviously, high levels of testing and tracking will be required.
... Don't ask me; I was hired for my looks.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
= Synchronet = Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
On 05-09-20 07:29, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Vk3jed to Tracker1 on Sat May 09 2020 11:51 am
Sounds like the US needs what we'd call here "the sensible centre" - neither particularly left or right leaning government, somewhere in the middle.
That has a high chance of become a mess, you know. Either it
disappoints both sides or it starts making pacts with one of the sides, until they become that side themselves.
On 05-09-20 10:31, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Disease radically improved aspects of American culture, too. As physicians came to believe that good ventilation and fresh air could combat illness, builders started adding porches and windows to houses.
Real estate investors used the trend to market migration to the West, prompting Eastern physicians to convince consumptives and their
families to move thousands of miles from crowded, muggy Eastern cities
to the dry air and sunshine in places like Los Angeles and Colorado Springs. The ploy was so influential that in 1872, approximately one-third of Colorado's population had tuberculosis, having moved to
the territory seeking better health.
Source - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-epidemics-past-forced-america ns-promote-health-ended-up-improving-life-this-country-180974555/
On 05-10-20 11:32, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
People are scared, and this has led to people short circuiting sane
risk management principles. Media hyperbole and zealous politicians
and medical experts enjoying their time in the sun haven't helped.
We should be looking towards specifically protecting the old and vulnerable. If we can do that, we can reduce the overall death rate,
while mitigating other costs. The only hope is either a vaccine, or
herd immunity, until then, we have to manage the best we can. But we
can't just crash the economy, put millions out of work, ruin and stunt
the future of tens of millions of more. Not if we can avoid it, and I think we can. By better risk management, not stupid bailouts. We have
to consider that the cost of controlling the virus, also has a huge
human cost, and it has been almost 'taboo' to even think there could be better ways, because the "People are dying!" line is brought up.
That seems to be the goto, but I don't know thatr's enough, because it appears we don't know really who's susceptible, there's more coming to light.
But we should be able to get a slower increase in growth rate if they come off gradually, then applo increased local restrictions as necessary. Obviously, high levels of testing and tracking will be required.
... Don't ask me; I was hired for my looks.
but he expanded the war machine instead. Eisenhower was so right.
What was Eisenhower right about? Just curious.
On 05-10-20 20:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The reason that we had the lockdown was the "flatten the curve", so
that we don't overwhelm the medical system. That has been done successfully. It was to ensure that that total number of cases is not
so high as to be overwhelming. It was not to eliminate the disease.
Yeah, although I wonder about those two... something sounds fishy to me! :D
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-10-20 11:32, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
People are scared, and this has led to people short circuiting sane
risk management principles. Media hyperbole and zealous politicians
and medical experts enjoying their time in the sun haven't helped.
Politicians here have been more measured in their responses. Medical experts have agreed on most things, though there has been a difference
of opinion on whether schools should be open or closed.
We should be looking towards specifically protecting the old and vulnerable. If we can do that, we can reduce the overall death rate,
We certainly need to look after the old, etc, but there may be
vulnerable that we don't know about. As I said last time around, we
don't know enough about this virus to confidently say who's volnerable.
I say some information suggesting that overweight or obese people may
also be more vulnerable. More studies are needed (and I think
happening) on that one. So "protecting the vulnerable" is still a fuzzy concept.
while mitigating other costs. The only hope is either a vaccine, or
herd immunity, until then, we have to manage the best we can. But we
Yes, those are the only reliable long term mechanisms.
can't just crash the economy, put millions out of work, ruin and stunt
the future of tens of millions of more. Not if we can avoid it, and I think we can. By better risk management, not stupid bailouts. We have
to consider that the cost of controlling the virus, also has a huge
human cost, and it has been almost 'taboo' to even think there could be better ways, because the "People are dying!" line is brought up.
It's a fine line to be walked between the direct health costs and the economic costs (which can also cause deaths).
... I'm an optimist... I'm positive things are going to go wrong. ;)
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
= Synchronet = Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-10-20 20:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The reason that we had the lockdown was the "flatten the curve", so
that we don't overwhelm the medical system. That has been done successfully. It was to ensure that that total number of cases is not
so high as to be overwhelming. It was not to eliminate the disease.
Yes, but the issue is the virus has exponential growth and in normal society an R0 of at least 2, so restrictions have to be artificially maintained to keep the R0 <1 (the only condition in which the number of cases doesn't grow, or at worst, slightly greater than 1 for periods
(slow growth of cases). If we just go back to business as usual, we'll
be back to where we were in mid-late March with exponential growth and harder lockdowns. It's a balancing act, until we get a vaccine.
A high growth rate and long reaction times (due to incubation and asymptomatic transmission) makes for a very hard to control scenario,
and there's no room for letting it get out of hand. That's why some
parts of the world are in such trouble. The virus was spreading undetected for too long.
As I said, a balancing act between keeping the virus at manageable
levels and getting the economy moving.
On 05-11-20 09:00, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people may die.
But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases, particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contract this from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that people
are using in this case, can be used every year.
Social distancing wouldn't just save lives this year. It would save
lives every year. This year, influenza rates are lower due to
distancing. It isn't just coronavirus which has been inhibited.
Are you willing to do this every year? If not, then this means that we
do accept, to some degree, harm from communicable diseases. So the question is, at what limit? Where do we draw the line?
From the start, it was always accepted there would be cases, and this would be part of the course. The idea of "Flattening the curve" was to lower the height of the curve. The area under the curve was not really something we could control. But the length itself is a problem.
On 05-12-20 08:48, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
As I said, a balancing act between keeping the virus at manageable
levels and getting the economy moving.
I'm on board with that. We just need a bit more discussion as to what cost we are willing to bear. How long can we support partial
lockdowns? What is an acceptable active infection rate?
On 05-11-20 09:00, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people may die. But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases, particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contract this from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that people are using in this case, can be used every year.
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines, treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know enough.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Thu May 07 2020 02:53 pm
Yeah, although I wonder about those two... something sounds fishy to
me! :D
Damnit, I love a good pun. All my internet points to you, good sir.
On 05-12-20 05:41, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I think the point Dennisk is trying to make is that we take chances
with the flu, regardless of the fact peple will die for it. Which means
we actually take chances (duh) instead of going into total lockdowns
and sitting in padded rooms. Which (I infer) suggest at some point w
will start taking chances with the new virus.
Indeed. I am wondering if the DNC is going to let Biden babble for a while and then pull a fast one to replace him at the "convention" (or whatever they are going to have this year) with someone they think is more viable,
I don't think we'll be seeing any conventions this year. Do you?
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-11-20 09:00, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people may die.
But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases, particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contract this from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that people
are using in this case, can be used every year.
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines, treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree
of natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut
we don't know enough.
Social distancing wouldn't just save lives this year. It would save
lives every year. This year, influenza rates are lower due to
distancing. It isn't just coronavirus which has been inhibited.
Agree.
Are you willing to do this every year? If not, then this means that we
do accept, to some degree, harm from communicable diseases. So the question is, at what limit? Where do we draw the line?
It's obvious there will be some long term changes, obviously not to the extent we are seeing now. However, whether or not a vaccine can be successfully made, I do think it's highly likely we'll have drugs that will treat it And we could even have preventative drugs in time. Once
we have these, social distancing measures can be eased a lot.
From the start, it was always accepted there would be cases, and this would be part of the course. The idea of "Flattening the curve" was to lower the height of the curve. The area under the curve was not really something we could control. But the length itself is a problem.
I'm seeing the potential for a lot of "instability", because of the ho (and often asymptomatic) transmission and the long incubation time. Effectively a "high gain" system with a slow feedback loop. In an electronic circut, such traits lead to things getting out of control.
Same for the virus. lowering the "gain" (i.e. R0) makes it easier to control. So some degree of social distancing will be necessary, until
we have better means to control the amount of virus circulating. The recent 3 outbreaks (Sydney nursing home, Melbourne meatworks and NW Tasmanian hospital) give an idea that happens if it gets out of hand.
As do the USA, Italy, etc.
My point being that it may not be safe to attempt "control" at a much higher level of virus in the community (a level that which on paper wouldn't overload the medical system).
On 05-13-20 17:24, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
My point being that it may not be safe to attempt "control" at a much higher level of virus in the community (a level that which on paper wouldn't overload the medical system).
That is my fear, that we will need strict controls for a long period of time, resulting in more economic harm than anticipated, which itself, leads to sickness and death. Maybe we've been lucky in Australia, but millions have been impacted elsewhere. People accepted "flattening the curve", but it seems we can't really allow any increase at all.
The other problem I see, is being overly risk-averse. I professionally deal with risk, and being overly risk-averse itself is a cost. I want
to see more risk managment. It is MORE important that people who live with elderly, sick people and those immocompromised practice good distancing and segregation, than fining people at the beach alone. We
also need to know what to do to protect ourselves, if, or should that
be, when, we do catch it. How can we better prepare ourselves to
lessen the risk and damage? We are very focused on practices which
assume it won't go anywhere, but we don't hear much of when it does spread. And if it never spreads, its only because we've stalled the
world economy until we've vaccinted most people, which is, how long
Yes, we should control this as tightly as we can, but we also need to
be preprared for when/if that is not possible, or even the best option anymore. We need to do that now. That is why I'm a contrarian here.
I'm personally not impacted much by the lockdown financially (if
anything, its a benefit for me), and I do agree with you more than you think, but we also need to have controls and plans for "not as good"
case scenarios, and we need to consider these as realities just as
likely, and plan for those too.
On 05-12-20 05:41, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I think the point Dennisk is trying to make is that we take chances with the flu, regardless of the fact peple will die for it. Which means we actually take chances (duh) instead of going into total lockdowns and sitting in padded rooms. Which (I infer) suggest at some point w will start taking chances with the new virus.
The difference between playing roulette at a casino run by the Mob and playi Russian Roulette. ;) I think taking chances will start when (1) we know mor about the virus and (2) we have better tools to manage it.
... The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-11-20 09:00, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people may die. But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases, particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contract this from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that people are using in this case, can be used every year.
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines, treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know enough.
Social distancing wouldn't just save lives this year. It would save lives every year. This year, influenza rates are lower due to distancing. It isn't just coronavirus which has been inhibited.
Agree.
Are you willing to do this every year? If not, then this means that we do accept, to some degree, harm from communicable diseases. So the question is, at what limit? Where do we draw the line?
It's obvious there will be some long term changes, obviously not to the extent we are seeing now. However, whether or not a vaccine can be successfully made, I do think it's highly likely we'll have drugs that will treat it And we could even have preventative drugs in time. Once we have these, social distancing measures can be eased a lot.
From the start, it was always accepted there would be cases, and this would be part of the course. The idea of "Flattening the curve" was to lower the height of the curve. The area under the curve was not really something we could control. But the length itself is a problem.
I'm seeing the potential for a lot of "instability", because of the ho (and often asymptomatic) transmission and the long incubation time. Effectively a "high gain" system with a slow feedback loop. In an electronic circut, such traits lead to things getting out of control. Same for the virus. lowering the "gain" (i.e. R0) makes it easier to control. So some degree of social distancing will be necessary, until we have better means to control the amount of virus circulating. The recent 3 outbreaks (Sydney nursing home, Melbourne meatworks and NW Tasmanian hospital) give an idea that happens if it gets out of hand. As do the USA, Italy, etc.
My point being that it may not be safe to attempt "control" at a much higher level of virus in the community (a level that which on paper wouldn't overload the medical system).
That is my fear, that we will need strict controls for a long period of time resulting in more economic harm than anticipated, which itself, leads to sickness and death. Maybe we've been lucky in Australia, but millions have been impacted elsewhere. People accepted "flattening the curve", but it see we can't really allow any increase at all.
The other problem I see, is being overly risk-averse. I professionally deal with risk, and being overly risk-averse itself is a cost. I want to see mor risk managment. It is MORE important that people who live with elderly, sic people and those immocompromised practice good distancing and segregation, t fining people at the beach alone. We also need to know what to do to protec ourselves, if, or should that be, when, we do catch it. How can we better prepare ourselves to lessen the risk and damage? We are very focused on practices which assume it won't go anywhere, but we don't hear much of when does spread. And if it never spreads, its only because we've stalled the wo economy until we've vaccinted most people, which is, how long away? Having appetite for risk is our weakenss in the West. We pray that the worst doesn happen, then ASSUME IT WON'T. This is true not just for this situation, but for other crisis. Increased tension and conflict with China seems quite likely, and what is our response? To just pretend that international confli won't happen and we will never have to face the march of history again. Sam with many other crises, we put all our chips in on prevention and just assum it will all turn out well because bad things don't happen and we don't need plan for them.
Yes, we should control this as tightly as we can, but we also need to be preprared for when/if that is not possible, or even the best option anymore. We need to do that now. That is why I'm a contrarian here. I'm personally impacted much by the lockdown financially (if anything, its a benefit for me and I do agree with you more than you think, but we also need to have contro and plans for "not as good" case scenarios, and we need to consider these as realities just as likely, and plan for those too.
... Dennis Katsonis
On 05-14-20 00:57, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Instead of waiting for things to return to a "normal" which may never return, we need to adjust to the climate and be prepared to adjust strategies on the fly as we relax lockdown rules. A former superviser believed good security was like a water faucet, and you crank it closed
to the point your users complain they can't get work done, then you
back off a quarter turn. Every type of industry is going to have to
adopt that 1/4 turn philosophy rather than open the valve wide open all
at once.
On 05-14-20 01:02, Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
I picture it being like a water faucet, and the best policy is to give
1/4 turns than to crank it wide open, then have to shut it off again.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-13-20 17:24, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
My point being that it may not be safe to attempt "control" at a much higher level of virus in the community (a level that which on paper wouldn't overload the medical system).
That is my fear, that we will need strict controls for a long period of time, resulting in more economic harm than anticipated, which itself, leads to sickness and death. Maybe we've been lucky in Australia, but millions have been impacted elsewhere. People accepted "flattening the curve", but it seems we can't really allow any increase at all.
As I said previously, the combination of exponential growth,
asymptomatic transmission, long incubation times and a R0 of at least
2.5 son't seem to be a great combination to handle. From what I've
seen, Australia has had a combination of luck and good management.
The other problem I see, is being overly risk-averse. I professionally deal with risk, and being overly risk-averse itself is a cost. I want
to see more risk managment. It is MORE important that people who live with elderly, sick people and those immocompromised practice good distancing and segregation, than fining people at the beach alone. We
This I do agree with, the vulnerable to need to be protected.
also need to know what to do to protect ourselves, if, or should that
be, when, we do catch it. How can we better prepare ourselves to
lessen the risk and damage? We are very focused on practices which
Again, I agree.
assume it won't go anywhere, but we don't hear much of when it does spread. And if it never spreads, its only because we've stalled the
world economy until we've vaccinted most people, which is, how long
We have seen it spread in local clusters, and we've seen it spread overseas.
Yes, we should control this as tightly as we can, but we also need to
be preprared for when/if that is not possible, or even the best option anymore. We need to do that now. That is why I'm a contrarian here.
I'm personally not impacted much by the lockdown financially (if
anything, its a benefit for me), and I do agree with you more than you think, but we also need to have controls and plans for "not as good"
case scenarios, and we need to consider these as realities just as
likely, and plan for those too.
I do agree, we need to have a plan in case things don't go to plan.
Other than the present (and now ridiculous) week delay in getting my
test results, the actual impact on me is really minimal, financially speaking. And we may also be at a slight advantage due to reduced expenses. I'd have taken a much bigger hit physically and mentally, if
it wasn't for my own ability to manage contingencies, and make up for
the many aspects of life I'm not able to partake in.
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people maydie. De> But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases,
particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contractthis De> from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that
On 05-14-20 09:26, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We are definately saving more money, and the commute to and from work
is as it should be.
Early on during the outbreak, the attitude was that we don't have to worry, that we should still go to Chinese restaurants. Trump was
crowing about how they were all on top of it. We are too focused on having a "positive" view.
Good risk management is seat belts on cars and life jackets on planes.
We don't forgo the safety instructions on every flight with the
statement "we plan not to crash". Even though one could argue the goal
is not to crash, we have to prepare for failure. Likewise, we need
those "Seat belts" with this virus, which means alternative quarantine arrangements (ie, targetting the elderly), managing health, testing,
and having knowledge of how to continue to run our country and prevent
a less contained virus causing damage. We are doing some action in
this manner, but the public seems to put all their chips in on social distancing doing all the risk management and 100% precaution.
We are definately saving more money, and the commute to and from work is as it should be.
Early on during the outbreak, the attitude was that we don't have to worry, that we should still go to Chinese restaurants. Trump was crowing about how they were all on top of it. We are too focused on having a "positive" view.
Good risk management is seat belts on cars and life jackets on planes. We don't forgo the safety instructions on every flight with the statement "we plan not to crash". Even though one could argue the goal is not to crash, we have to prepare for failure. Likewise, we need those "Seat belts" with this virus, which means alternative quarantine arrangements (ie, targetting the elderly), managing health, testing, and having knowledge of how to continue to run our country and prevent a less contained virus causing damage. We are doing some action in this manner, but the public seems to put all their chips in on social distancing doing all the risk management and 100% precaution.
... Dennis Katsonis
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Thu May 14 2020 01:02 am
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because
people may But this is true every year. Every year
communicable diseases, particularly influenza, kill people.
Every year, people contract from others who are out in
public spreading it. The logic that
Other then wearing masks and staying 6 feet away from each other I really don't see anything else that can be done. I do have a concern about wearing masks though. How do I identify the person that steals from me if they are wearing a mask?
HusTler
UV treatment is showing some promise. Not sure about the efficacy
I wonder how effective some of the simply things like good old sunlight (which
has UV in it) and fresh air will be. I did read somewhere that there were some
outdoor "hospitals" during the 1918-19 Spanish flu outbreak that helped people
recover. In any case, I can't see it doing harm (provided there was appropriate medical supervision as needed).
but he expanded the war machine instead. Eisenhower was so right.
What was Eisenhower right about? Just curious.
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial in government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch that wh
thing.
It'll be like Mike Tyson fighting an 8yo...
i'm not even joking when i say i expect biden to drop his false teeth on the podium, shit himself and say children fondle him.
Biden can't manage to string a coherent sentence together. I'll take
the babbling asshole over the babbling idiot... would love a better
option, Biden isn't it.
Indeed. I am wondering if the DNC is going to let Biden babble for a while and then pull a fast one to replace him at the "convention" (or whatever
they are going to have this year) with someone they think is more viable, like HRC. For me, she was not it in 2016 and still won't be now.
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines, treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know enough.
HusTler wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Thu May 14 2020 01:02 am
A lot of people are saying we need to do this because people maydie. De> But this is true every year. Every year communicable diseases,
particularly influenza, kill people. Every year, people contractthis De> from others who are out in public spreading it. The logic that
Other then wearing masks and staying 6 feet away from each other I
really don't see anything else that can be done. I do have a concern
about wearing masks though. How do I identify the person that steals
from me if they are wearing a mask?
On 05-14-20 18:03, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Considering most people have a vitamin D deficiency, and many don't
take enough fats to absorb fat-soluble vitamins like D and K, it
wouldn't surprise me.
On 05-14-20 18:12, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/TRN
On 5/12/2020 4:00 AM, Vk3jed wrote:
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines, treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know enough.
20-30k/year die in the US from the flu... we don't lock everything
down.. and that's with vacines etc. Locking things down won't actually save many, because the disease is still spreading.
There's not a single reason the same rules for grocery stores and food processors can't be followed for most jobs. Unless you're advocating
to also lock down the grocery stores and fast food drive throughs as
well?
On 5/8/2020 6:54 PM, Vk3jed wrote:
UV treatment is showing some promise. Not sure about the efficacy
I wonder how effective some of the simply things like good old sunlight (which
has UV in it) and fresh air will be. I did read somewhere that there were some
outdoor "hospitals" during the 1918-19 Spanish flu outbreak that helped people
recover. In any case, I can't see it doing harm (provided there was appropriate medical supervision as needed).
Considering most people have a vitamin D deficiency, and many don't take enough fats to absorb fat-soluble vitamins like D and K, it wouldn't surprise me.
On 5/9/2020 7:49 AM, MRO wrote:
biden just has a long track record of not doing anything substantial i government. he's made himself look bad.
god damn i cant wait for a trump and biden debate. i'm gonna watch tha wh
thing.
It'll be like Mike Tyson fighting an 8yo...
i'm not even joking when i say i expect biden to drop his false teeth on t podium, shit himself and say children fondle him.
I'm thinking Comedy Central should host the debates between Trump and
Biden at this point.
On 05-14-20 00:57, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Instead of waiting for things to return to a "normal" which may never return, we need to adjust to the climate and be prepared to adjust strategies on the fly as we relax lockdown rules. A former superviser believed good security was like a water faucet, and you crank it closed to the point your users complain they can't get work done, then you back off a quarter turn. Every type of industry is going to have to adopt that 1/4 turn philosophy rather than open the valve wide open all at once.
Yes, there will be long term changes from this. What form they'll take, it' too early to tell.
... Aviation Lie Ä I thought YOU took care of that.
On 05-14-20 01:02, Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
I picture it being like a water faucet, and the best policy is to give 1/4 turns than to crank it wide open, then have to shut it off again.
That's a good way of seeing things.
... The cause of problems are solutions!
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Thu May 14 2020 09:26 am
We are definately saving more money, and the commute to and from work is as it should be.
Early on during the outbreak, the attitude was that we don't have to worry, that we should still go to Chinese restaurants. Trump was crowing about how they were all on top of it. We are too focused on having a "positive" view.
Good risk management is seat belts on cars and life jackets on planes. We don't forgo the safety instructions on every flight with the statement "we plan not to crash". Even though one could argue the goal is not to crash, we have to prepare for failure. Likewise, we need those "Seat belts" with this virus, which means alternative quarantine arrangements (ie, targetting the elderly), managing health, testing, and having knowledge of how to continue to run our country and prevent a less contained virus causing damage. We are doing some action in this manner, but the public seems to put all their chips in on social distancing doing all the risk management and 100% precaution.
... Dennis Katsonis
I agree with your post; and furthermore, with most of the things you outlined in the last paragraph. Maybe I'm following mainstream media
too much, maybe I'm uninformed, maybe... tons of maybe's, but;
I don't see my government (The United States) implementing half of what any (you... I...) half-intelligent human-being, in my case an
uneducated one.. but who's a decent critical thinker and can come up
with some ideas, outlines. Like... all I see Trump saying is 'its OK,
lets OPEN, and NOW'...
I want it to open; I think 1/4 turns on the valve is smart.. lets not
go too quick; I'm open to others' ideas that may prove effective. But I don't see our administration - nor others in power who could sway the response - doing anything.
The suggestions for reopening, AND the way states are either NOT ready
by the guidelines, go ahead anyway, or just come up with their own, are garbage. Hell, the CDC had a whole outline of new guidelines and it was blocked by The White House.
What I see is a horrible response - whether you're on the side of OPEN
UP *or* BEING CAUTIOUS. I see failure everywhere...
On 05-15-20 00:59, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
It may take up to 5 or more years to develop a vaccine. I confess I
like food and I like buffets, and I fear they'll either go away or or evolve into " lunch lady" type service where you may pick what you
want, but without the luxury of self-service.
On 05-15-20 01:07, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/CAVEBBS
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Thu May 14 2020 09:39 pm
On 05-14-20 01:02, Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
I picture it being like a water faucet, and the best policy is to give 1/4 turns than to crank it wide open, then have to shut it off again.
That's a good way of seeing things.
... The cause of problems are solutions!
Baby steps lead to walking, then running
Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
20-30k/year die in the US from the flu... we don't lock everything
down.. and that's with vacines etc. Locking things down won't actually save many, because the disease is still spreading.
There's not a single reason the same rules for grocery stores and food processors can't be followed for most jobs. Unless you're advocating
to also lock down the grocery stores and fast food drive throughs as
well?
Trump was slow to realise the severity of the virus. He was initially dismissive.
On 5/8/2020 6:54 PM, Vk3jed wrote:
UV treatment is showing some promise. Not sure about the efficacy
I wonder how effective some of the simply things like good old sunlight (whie
has UV in it) and fresh air will be. I did read somewhere that there were s
outdoor "hospitals" during the 1918-19 Spanish flu outbreak that helped peop
recover. In any case, I can't see it doing harm (provided there was appropriate medical supervision as needed).
Considering most people have a vitamin D deficiency, and many don't take enough fats to absorb fat-soluble vitamins like D and K, it wouldn't
surprise me.
I'm pretty certain the DNC will have a different nomination, likely Bloomberg.
right now they're trying to get obama to carry him. i think his people are telling biden to shut the fuck up except when absolutely necessary.
It may take up to 5 or more years to develop a vaccine. I confess I like
isolation and financial pressures that others face. The other risk factor is China, the more our financial situation deteriorates, the more call there is t
put pressure on China with regards to how they handled the virus, and their potential responsibility in it spreading, which would lead to more conflict. We are already seeing this between Australia and China, with China threatening
Australia.
I'm in favour of a cautious, risk managed opening. I just read an article where they are expecting many more suicide deaths from mental illness caused by this. Part if it would simply be the stress of a pandemic, the other part the isolation and financial pressures that others face. The other risk factor is China, the more our financial situation deteriorates, the more call there is to put pressure on China with regards to how they handled the virus, and their potential responsibility in it spreading, which would lead to more conflict. We are already seeing this between Australia and China, with China threatening Australia.
There are so many things to juggle and balance at the moment.
... Dennis Katsonis
More and more, it's looking like we overreacted and that shutting the economy down was a bit mistake.
On 05-15-20 11:51, Dumas Walker wrote to VK3JED <=-
@VIA: VERT/CAPCITY2
Trump was slow to realise the severity of the virus. He was initially dismissive.
He was no slower or more dismissive than the WHO, an organization made
up of alleged medical professionals.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-is
isolation and financial pressures that others face. The other risk factor
China, the more our financial situation deteriorates, the more call there ist
put pressure on China with regards to how they handled the virus, and their potential responsibility in it spreading, which would lead to more conflict. We are already seeing this between Australia and China, with Chinathreatening
Australia.
Another China risk factor at the moment is that they have been buying
up some industries in countries that were hard hit by the virus. About
a month ago, I saw a story about how they were buying up industries in trouble in Italy and/or Spain.
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Fri May 15 2020 12:56 pm
I'm in favour of a cautious, risk managed opening. I just read an article where they are expecting many more suicide deaths from mental illness caused by this. Part if it would simply be the stress of a pandemic, the other part the isolation and financial pressures that others face. The other risk factor is China, the more our financial situation deteriorates, the more call there is to put pressure on China with regards to how they handled the virus, and their potential responsibility in it spreading, which would lead to more conflict. We are already seeing this between Australia and China, with China threatening Australia.
There are so many things to juggle and balance at the moment.
... Dennis Katsonis
Yea well, I think this will be a huge moment in history that will need years of rebuilding. I think in the grand scheme of things it's going
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out. :P
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out. :P
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation is now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an inju or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent damage We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out.
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an i or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent dam We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
think of it this way. the human species is a destructive neverending machin to get rid of humans you need something quick and devastating. nothing else will do the job. we will bounce back and rebuild.
Then you pick an american movie and it has a lots of politics tackled on, but the type that conveys the message that Americans are rotten. Lots of movies about how bad 'murrican soldiers are, or how bad 'murricans used to treat women or blacks or whatever. Which might be true or false, but shows the active desire of casting a negative light on their civilitation.
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Fri May 15 2020 12:56 pm
Yea well, I think this will be a huge moment in history that will
need years of rebuilding. I think in the grand scheme of things it's
going
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out. :P
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation is now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an injury or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent damage. We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
movies about how bad 'murrican soldiers are, or how bad 'murricans used treat women or blacks or whatever. Which might be true or false, but sh the active desire of casting a negative light on their civilitation.
I think there was a time when it was cool to for Americans to be negative ab their own country. It may have been considered cool and edgy, but I have a feeling most Americans don't really feel that way these days. Also, being
insane how rapidly the environment ha benefitted from this world-wide shutdown?? I wonder, no... I already know humans WON'T, if society on a whol will realize said benefits and finally begin to act on global warming and ot environmental challenges...
Yeah, WHO dropped the ball. Australia moved before they did.
I can no longer see any positive outcome from engagement with China. We are locked into conflict. We have two choices in Australia, to voluntarily submit
and roll over, or be forced into submission.
It may take up to 5 or more years to develop a vaccine. I confess I like food and I like buffets, and I fear they'll either go away or or evolve into "Yea, I feel cafeterias will be the next concept. You can get a plate of
lunch lady" type service where you may pick what you want, but without the luxury of self-service.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dennisk on Sat May 16 2020 02:28 pm
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured ou
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisat now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to a or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of event
... Dennis Katsonis
think of it this way. the human species is a destructive neverending mac to get rid of humans you need something quick and devastating. nothing e will do the job. we will bounce back and rebuild.
Dunno. I think the West is at its sunset for many reasons.
The main one is Westerns no longer care. Suffices to watch Korean movies to compare it with European and American movies. Most Korean movies show Korean heroes being very Korean. If they need a very, very, very bad villian, it is Chinesse or a Vietnamesse who is the bad guy. Because Koreans are super good and super awesome, and the enemies of Korea are super bad and super sucky. Heck, if they make a movie that features the allies of South Korea, they mak it clear their allies are great, but they make their movie about Koreans.
Then you pick an american movie and it has a lots of politics tackled on, bu the type that conveys the message that Americans are rotten. Lots of movies about how bad 'murrican soldiers are, or how bad 'murricans used to treat wo or blacks or whatever. Which might be true or false, but shows the active desire of casting a negative light on their civilitation.
I came to this realitation reading Ultima Ratio Regis, a book by a Spanish archeologist about weapon control and regulatioh throughout history. It was quite neutral and cold, trying to display facts as he had registered them, b the conclussion I drawed was that cultures last until they stop being combat and proud of being what they are. You stop caring about your city-state, so don't join the city militia, you outsource your fighting to some ally you bu with dracmas or whatever, and when things get rough you don't defend your culture because you KNOW it is not worth saving anymore.
Nowadays you cannot display a Spanish flag in Spain without being called nam and accused or being an extremist (with the exception of displays during soc games, for some reason). If the population hates the goddamn flag, why would expect them to rebuild anything or stand for what it represents at all?
Gosh if I had more contracts with American firms I would leave this place to rot myself.
On 05-16-20 18:52, Dumas Walker wrote to VK3JED <=-
@VIA: VERT/CAPCITY2
Yeah, WHO dropped the ball. Australia moved before they did.
Yes, Australia and NZ did awesome jobs. I have to wonder, though, if there was not a little luck for some of the Southern Hemisphere
countries. When it hit here, everyone was cooped up indoors in the
cold weather.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out. :P
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation is now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an inju or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent damage We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
think of it this way. the human species is a destructive neverending machine. to get rid of humans you need something quick and devastating.
nothing else will do the job. we will bounce back and rebuild.
---
= Synchronet = ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
Arelor wrote to MRO <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dennisk on Sat May 16 2020 02:28 pm
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out.
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an i or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent dam We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
think of it this way. the human species is a destructive neverending machin to get rid of humans you need something quick and devastating. nothing else will do the job. we will bounce back and rebuild.
Dunno. I think the West is at its sunset for many reasons.
The main one is Westerns no longer care. Suffices to watch Korean
movies to compare it with European and American movies. Most Korean
movies show Korean heroes being very Korean. If they need a very, very, very bad villian, it is a Chinesse or a Vietnamesse who is the bad guy. Because Koreans are super good and super awesome, and the enemies of
Korea are super bad and super sucky. Heck, if they make a movie that features the allies of South Korea, they make it clear their allies are great, but they make their movie about Koreans.
Then you pick an american movie and it has a lots of politics tackled
on, but the type that conveys the message that Americans are rotten.
Lots of movies about how bad 'murrican soldiers are, or how bad
'murricans used to treat women or blacks or whatever. Which might be
true or false, but shows the active desire of casting a negative light
on their civilitation.
I came to this realitation reading Ultima Ratio Regis, a book by a
Spanish archeologist about weapon control and regulatioh throughout history. It was quite neutral and cold, trying to display facts as he
had registered them, but the conclussion I drawed was that cultures
last until they stop being combative and proud of being what they are.
You stop caring about your city-state, so you don't join the city
militia, you outsource your fighting to some ally you buy with dracmas
or whatever, and when things get rough you don't defend your culture because you KNOW it is not worth saving anymore.
Nowadays you cannot display a Spanish flag in Spain without being
called names and accused or being an extremist (with the exception of displays during soccer games, for some reason). If the population hates the goddamn flag, why would be expect them to rebuild anything or stand for what it represents at all?
Gosh if I had more contracts with American firms I would leave this
place to rot myself.
paulie420 wrote to Dr. What <=-
More and more, it's looking like we overreacted and that shutting the economy down was a bit mistake.
I agree, however we still had to - because there was NO response the
other wa either. It eats me up that.. not even simple, but that a smart and swift set of actions could have saved us from a shutdown...
the entire response, however, was an entire failure in America. We couldn't of NOT shutdown, because the idiots at the top didn't do what
was needed to keep going in an intelligent way.
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Not to open up even a larger political debate on the topic,
but... isn't it insane how rapidly the environment ha benefitted
from this world-wide shutdown?? I wonder, no... I already know
humans WON'T, if society on a whole will realize said benefits
and finally begin to act on global warming and other
environmental challenges...
We are a scummy world-society, so no... I bet folks will want
their McDonalds and deisel trucks the moment the risk subsides.
Ugh.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: paulie420 to Dennisk on Sat May 16 2020 02:58 pm
insane how rapidly the environment ha benefitted from this world-wide
shutdown?? I wonder, no... I already know humans WON'T, if society on
a whol will realize said benefits and finally begin to act on global
warming and ot environmental challenges...
there's some articles. i'm not even sure they are accurate. the planet isnt as fragile as most people are led to believe.
Right. One of the problems with burro-crats (spelling intentional) is that they never say "Oops. I made a mistake. New data is now saying we should to this.". They **always** double down on their mistake and refuse to change (because that would be an admission that they made a mistake).
Right. One of the problems with burro-crats (spelling intentional) is that they never say "Oops. I made a mistake. New data is now saying we should t this.". They **always** double down on their mistake and refuse to change (because that would be an admission that they made a mistake).
I based my info off of just looking outside in Los Angeles. It clearer than anytime in history that I can remember. Other photos I've seen, from China a the like, are even more insane of a contrast...
I think there was a time when it was cool to for Americans to be negative about
their own country. It may have been considered cool and edgy, but I have a fee
ing most Americans don't really feel that way these days. Also, being critical
I have noted this too. There is a lof of self-hatred, guilt and self-flaggellation. The standard line is that we are evil, have done wrong, and must pay. All too often, we must "pay" in ways which are self destructive
Self-effacement, moving over to make way for the others. It concerns me when
Australians say that its now "China's Turn", and that perhaps its time for us to move over. That is not a statement of logic, of reason, its a statement of
people who have given up, who want to roll over and die.
We are a scummy world-society, so no... I bet folks will want
their McDonalds and deisel trucks the moment the risk subsides.
Ugh.
No, this whole thing won't change how society as a whole acts
towards environmental challenges, you're correct on that. I'd be
curious as to what evidence there is that the shutdown has
benefitted the environment. I'm talking about actual evidence,
not just talking heads on the "mainstream media" saying things
that they feel fits their agenda...
We can probably do without McDonalds, but the world-society won't
go very far without deisel trucks.
HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Gamgee to paulie420 on Sun May 17 2020 09:35 am
We are a scummy world-society, so no... I bet folks will want
their McDonalds and deisel trucks the moment the risk subsides.
Ugh.
Now there's some solid population control for ya. People eating
at McDonalds without masks. Should be good for a few thousand
deaths, no?
Ummmm, I didn't write the above that you quoted me as saying.
Please pay attention when trying to reply.
Arelor wrote to MRO <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dennisk on Sat May 16 2020 02:28 pm
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out.
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an i or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent dam We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
think of it this way. the human species is a destructive neverending machin to get rid of humans you need something quick and devastating. nothing else will do the job. we will bounce back and rebuild.
Dunno. I think the West is at its sunset for many reasons.
The main one is Westerns no longer care. Suffices to watch Korean
movies to compare it with European and American movies. Most Korean
movies show Korean heroes being very Korean. If they need a very, very, very bad villian, it is a Chinesse or a Vietnamesse who is the bad guy. Because Koreans are super good and super awesome, and the enemies of
Korea are super bad and super sucky. Heck, if they make a movie that features the allies of South Korea, they make it clear their allies are great, but they make their movie about Koreans.
Then you pick an american movie and it has a lots of politics tackled
on, but the type that conveys the message that Americans are rotten.
Lots of movies about how bad 'murrican soldiers are, or how bad
'murricans used to treat women or blacks or whatever. Which might be
true or false, but shows the active desire of casting a negative light
on their civilitation.
I came to this realitation reading Ultima Ratio Regis, a book by a
Spanish archeologist about weapon control and regulatioh throughout history. It was quite neutral and cold, trying to display facts as he
had registered them, but the conclussion I drawed was that cultures
last until they stop being combative and proud of being what they are.
You stop caring about your city-state, so you don't join the city
militia, you outsource your fighting to some ally you buy with dracmas
or whatever, and when things get rough you don't defend your culture because you KNOW it is not worth saving anymore.
Nowadays you cannot display a Spanish flag in Spain without being
called names and accused or being an extremist (with the exception of displays during soccer games, for some reason). If the population hates the goddamn flag, why would be expect them to rebuild anything or stand for what it represents at all?
Gosh if I had more contracts with American firms I would leave this
place to rot myself.
Gamgee wrote to HusTler <=-
HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Gamgee to paulie420 on Sun May 17 2020 09:35 am
We are a scummy world-society, so no... I bet folks will want
their McDonalds and deisel trucks the moment the risk subsides.
Ugh.
Now there's some solid population control for ya. People eating
at McDonalds without masks. Should be good for a few thousand
deaths, no?
Ummmm, I didn't write the above that you quoted me as saying.
Please pay attention when trying to reply.
It may take up to 5 or more years to develop a vaccine. I confess I like food and I like buffets, and I fear they'll either go away or or evolve i lunch lady" type service where you may pick what you want, but without th luxury of self-service.Yea, I feel cafeterias will be the next concept. You can get a plate of
your choice for like 12.95 as an example.
Now there's some solid population control for ya. People eating at McDonalds without masks. Should be good for a few thousand deaths, no?
One thing I've noticed about the echoes, which is quite unique, is how a thr will survive by morphing into a completely different topic weeks after it's initiated.
Daniel Traechin
Now there's some solid population control for ya. People eating at McDonalds without masks. Should be good for a few thousand deaths, no?
paulie420 wrote to Gamgee <=-
No, this whole thing won't change how society as a whole acts
towards environmental challenges, you're correct on that. I'd be
curious as to what evidence there is that the shutdown has
benefitted the environment. I'm talking about actual evidence,
not just talking heads on the "mainstream media" saying things
that they feel fits their agenda...
I'm on board that we need a lot of what hurts the environment...
and I'm not a crazy change.is.now talking head for massive global
warming action -
but you can simply look outside, in Los Angeles or Beijing or
<insert google search on coronavirus enivornment> and it is easy
to see the HUGE changes in the environment... from a two month
shutdown.
We can probably do without McDonalds, but the world-society won't
go very far without deisel trucks.
... some changes would prove to be intelligent and worthwhile...
listen, I'm over hear comsuming and not being the best to the
environment; but its worth taking note, these changes we're
experiencing. And, I'm all in for any basic things I can do to
help. You won't catch me giving up lifes pleasures or anything,
but.. man L.A. looks pretty clear right now.
Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-
Ummmm, I didn't write the above that you quoted me as saying.
Please pay attention when trying to reply.
There were a few levels of quote there. It looked like he was
quoting someone else who quoted someone else who quoted someone
else. He may have been replying to one of your messages but only
included a quote that someone else said.
calcmandan wrote to Gamgee <=-
Ummmm, I didn't write the above that you quoted me as saying.
Please pay attention when trying to reply.
One thing I've noticed about the echoes, which is quite unique,
is how a thread will survive by morphing into a completely
different topic weeks after it's initiated.
Gamgee wrote to calcmandan <=-
calcmandan wrote to Gamgee <=-
Ummmm, I didn't write the above that you quoted me as saying.
Please pay attention when trying to reply.
One thing I've noticed about the echoes, which is quite unique,
is how a thread will survive by morphing into a completely
different topic weeks after it's initiated.
Indeed, thread-drift is a common thing, and can make it hard to
find something you're looking for in an echo area sometimes, but I wouldn't think it would contribute to mis-quoting... :-)
Self hatred, self-flagellation and shame seem to be popular now. We have go from having a positive view of ourselves, to one of feeling constantly guilt and shameful. It makes no sense, really. When a society no longer has the attitude that it deserves to assert itself, to live, to forge a place in thi world, it is pretty much done for.
Yea, I feel cafeterias will be the next concept. You can get a plate of your choice for like 12.95 as an example.
I live north of the Indiana border, and they let restaurants open up as long s they have plans to remedy self service situations. A friend went to Golde Corral, and they have an attendant at the buffet that takes your order and fills your plate. Places that had self serve fountain drinks moved the drin machines to the employee side of the counter, and getting a refill involves getting a new cup.
Well, yes, that's what happened, but really.... it's not that hard
to keep the quotes straight, and think about who you're replying
to. <SHRUG>
paulie420 wrote to Gamgee <=-If enough people left the cities... ;-)
The problem is, those people then go to grocery stores without their masks a cough/talk/sneeze/whatever. Then some sweet little old lady who is wearing a mask, and has no other option but to go out and get groceries for herself co in contact with it, brings it home, does everything right to sanitize her stuff, misses a corner of a box, or an edge of a bag, get sick and dies. all because some fat fuck wanted a cheeseburger.
paulie420 wrote to Gamgee <=-
If enough people left the cities... ;-)
We'd have a bunch of smaller cities. :P
Nightfox wrote to HusTler <=-
I thought all the McDonalds, as with all restaurants, would be
closed right now and only serving take-out orders?
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Sat May 16 2020 08:16 pm
paulie420 wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to paulie420 on Fri May 15 2020 12:56 pm
Yea well, I think this will be a huge moment in history that will
need years of rebuilding. I think in the grand scheme of things it's
going
to get a lot worse before this current society gets it figured out. :P
To be honest, I don't think we will recover completely. Our civilisation is now old and dying, and like people who are old, when they succumb to an injury or illness, it affects them permanently. This will lead to permanent damage. We just don't have the right culture to deal with these types of events.
... Dennis Katsonis
Not to open up even a larger political debate on the topic, but...
isn't it insane how rapidly the environment ha benefitted from this world-wide shutdown?? I wonder, no... I already know humans WON'T, if society on a whole will realize said benefits and finally begin to act
on global warming and other environmental challenges...
We are a scummy world-society, so no... I bet folks will want their McDonalds and deisel trucks the moment the risk subsides. Ugh.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-destructive
I have noted this too. There is a lof of self-hatred, guilt and self-flaggellation. The standard line is that we are evil, have done wrong, and must pay. All too often, we must "pay" in ways which are self
Self-effacement, moving over to make way for the others. It concerns mewhen
Australians say that its now "China's Turn", and that perhaps its time forus
to move over. That is not a statement of logic, of reason, its a statementof
people who have given up, who want to roll over and die.
I think they just blew their turn. Time for Australia, the US, the UK, Canada, and others to take it back.
I don't go out much so I don't really know how people are behaving out there. Sounds like there's a bunch jackasses out there.
HusTler wrote to DaiTengu <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Mon May 18 2020 07:30 am
I don't go out much so I don't really know how people are behaving
out there. Sounds like there's a bunch jackasses out there.
DaiTengu wrote to HusTler <=-
I don't go out much so I don't really know how people are behaving out there. Sounds like there's a bunch jackasses out there.
I had to run to the grocery store yesterday. only about 25% of
people there were wearing masks.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun May 17 2020 04:09 pm
Self hatred, self-flagellation and shame seem to be popular now. We have go from having a positive view of ourselves, to one of
feeling constantly guilt and shameful. It makes no sense, really. When a society no longer has the attitude that it deserves t
assert itself, to live, to forge a place in thi world, it is pretty much done for.
well maybe these people have been conditioned to think poorly of themselves so something like the government can step in and be the
daddy.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Gamgee to paulie420 on Mon May 18 2020 08:20 am
paulie420 wrote to Gamgee <=-If enough people left the cities... ;-)
We'd have a bunch of smaller cities. :P
|08Paulie|15420
|15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
|14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07
Re: Re: not my president?
By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Mon May 18 2020 07:30 am
The problem is, those people then go to grocery stores without their masks a
cough/talk/sneeze/whatever. Then some sweet little old lady who is wearing a mask, and has no other option but to go out and get
groceries for herself co in contact with it, brings it home, does everything right to sanitize her stuff, misses a corner of a b
or an edge of a bag, get sick and dies. all because some fat fuck wanted a cheeseburger.
I don't go out much so I don't really know how people are behaving out there. Sounds like there's a bunch jackasses out there.
HusTler
havens.synchro.net:23
there. Sounds like there's a bunch jackasses out there.
I had to run to the grocery store yesterday. only about 25% of people there were wearing masks.
DaiTengu
I think we are at the end of a modern "Pax Romana". China historically has no
been an outward looking nation, and this will be something new for them, if they do this. The USA and China will likely clash, with an outcome that is ye
unknown. This all depends on whether the USA can turns things around, and reassert their dominance. That is, "Make America Great Again". The sentiment
is there, but the capability? Not sure.
well maybe these people have been conditioned to think poorly of themselves so something like the government can step in and be the
daddy.
I believe that sort of conditioning exists, but not in this context.
In fact, exacerbated nationalism has historically been used to great success for pushing Big Government on people. If I was a
government, I would do what Gangs and Ultranationalists do. Try to put in people's heads that we fucking rock and we will rock better
as long as we are all working together (for the government) and that crushing opposition (small government proponents, foreigner
powers) is a legit manouver.
We'd have a bunch of smaller cities. :P
|08Paulie|15420
|15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
|14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07
That would be probably for the best.
People does not treat their neiughbours the same way in a big place than in a small one. Plus all those cars jammed in the same road,
people having to travel for hours to reach their job in the same city... it does not sound very ecogreen to me.
Re: Re: not my president?
I had to run to the grocery store yesterday. only about 25% of people there were wearing masks.
DaiTengu
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun May 17 2020 04:09 pm
Self hatred, self-flagellation and shame seem to be popular now. We have go from having a positive view of ourselves, to one of feeling constantly guilt and shameful. It makes no sense, really. When a society no longer has the attitude that it deserves to assert itself, to live, to forge a place in thi world, it is pretty much done for.
well maybe these people have been conditioned to think poorly of themselves so something like the government can step in and be their daddy. ---
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I would call that statism, though I don't really like that term because Libertarian
For me, I lose all sorts of respect and trust for a person if their unwilling
be smart and as safe as possible throughout this ordeal. No, I don't think my
andana is going to protect me-- but the attitude that it represents WILL. And e only way I can quickly gauge how YOU are going to treat all of that, is by w
ther you have one on too...
Or perhaps people with a low sense of self esteem have resentment toward those
which they see as strong and successfull. By having a low sense of self, they
identify with others who they believe are also in the same boat, and morality is inverted so that victimhood is turned into a virtue.
been an outward looking nation, and this will be something new for them, if they do this. The USA and China will likely clash, with an outcome that is unknown. This all depends on whether the USA can turns things around, and reassert their dominance. That is, "Make America Great Again". The sentime is there, but the capability? Not sure.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-Liber
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Wed May 20 2020 08:59 am
I would call that statism, though I don't really like that term because
tarian
Well, it is statism. A subclass of it if you will.
The other common variant is "Give us all your rights so we can defeat
the rich class and give you their stuff". This variant is also very successful because people likes free stuff paid by others :-)
---
= Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-no
I think we are at the end of a modern "Pax Romana". China historically has
been an outward looking nation, and this will be something new for them, if they do this. The USA and China will likely clash, with an outcome that isye
unknown. This all depends on whether the USA can turns things around, and reassert their dominance. That is, "Make America Great Again". Thesentiment
is there, but the capability? Not sure.
I am not sure, either. I would be concerned about the capability,
mainly because there seems to be a sentiment among enough of our
citizens that they either (1) don't want the USA to be the leader
and/or (2) would actually be happy if China were our leader. That
second group would have been happy if the USSR had never split up and
had remained the leader of global communism.
So as long as those folks vote, run for office, etc., I am not sure the
US can ever get completely turned back around.
Then of course there is the defense industry who would also be much
more happy if we went to war over it all... but that is a different subject entirely. :)
The USA, for all its fault (and there are many), is a better world power than >China. And I know that many in Asia agree. America has a soul. Personally, >the rise of China really worries me. Those that think the USA is evil haven't >seen anything yet.
I am old enough to remember the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, and paid attention in history class. Most of the people in the USA who would disagree with you are either too young to remember, ignored what they learned in history (or were taught it with an angle), or are not all that bothered about totalitarianism/communism because they are under the false belief that only those who don't believe like they do would be "in trouble."
Like I said, they didn't pay enough attention in history class. Stalin, Mao, and others had a tendency to turn on their followers, and even closest friends/allies, too.
The USA, for all its fault (and there are many), is a better world power tha China. And I know that many in Asia agree. America has a soul. Personally the rise of China really worries me. Those that think the USA is evil haven seen anything yet.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dumas Walker to DENNISK on Thu May 21 2020 10:55 am
I am old enough to remember the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, and paid attention in history class. Most of the people in the USA who would disagree with you are either too young to remember, ignored what they learned in history (or were taught it with an angle), or are not all th bothered about totalitarianism/communism because they are under the fal belief that only those who don't believe like they do would be "in trouble."
Like I said, they didn't pay enough attention in history class. Stalin, Mao, and others had a tendency to turn on their followers, and even closest friends/allies, too.
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The good thing ab our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we have a chance to change our president within a few years if we don't like where our current president is leading the country.
I try not to judge too much if someone is not wearing a mask... some people are not physically or mentally able to wear one. Now, if they are not wearing one and also not willing to social distance in my presense, that would make me thing less than highly of them very quickly.
The USA, for all its fault (and there are many), is a better world power than >China. And I know that many in Asia agree. America has a soul. Personally, >the rise of China really worries me. Those that think the USA is evil haven't >seen anything yet.
I am old enough to remember the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, and paid attention in history class. Most of the people in the USA who would disagree with you are either too young to remember, ignored what they learned in history (or were taught it with an angle), or are not all that bothered about totalitarianism/communism because they are under the false belief that only those who don't believe like they do would be "in trouble."
Like I said, they didn't pay enough attention in history class. Stalin, Mao, and others had a tendency to turn on their followers, and even
closest friends/allies, too.
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The good thing about our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we have a chance to change our president within a few years if we don't like where our current president is leading the country.
Nightfox
Huh? I'm pretty sure the difference in outcome between Trump and Stalin isn't due to term length.
On 05-22-20 09:55, Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks
is what makes or breaks a contagion.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-those
Or perhaps people with a low sense of self esteem have resentment toward
which they see as strong and successfull. By having a low sense of self,they
identify with others who they believe are also in the same boat, andmorality
is inverted so that victimhood is turned into a virtue.
That accounts for a lot of people's actions, although they seem to
resent those more that do not enable their behavior vs. those who might
be powerful but who do enable them.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Mon May 18 2020 07:46 pm
been an outward looking nation, and this will be something new for them, if they do this. The USA and China will likely clash, with an outcome that is unknown. This all depends on whether the USA can turns things around, and reassert their dominance. That is, "Make America Great Again". The sentime is there, but the capability? Not sure.
i saw it first hand in the 90s when companies were leaving to go
overseas. now companies are coming back. if companies come back to the usa and to their other countries of origin i think that's a good thing. ---
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MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Wed May 20 2020 08:42 pm
The USA, for all its fault (and there are many), is a better world power tha China. And I know that many in Asia agree. America has a soul. Personally the rise of China really worries me. Those that think the USA is evil haven seen anything yet.
at the very core of china is pride and vanity. they do anything and say anything for 'face'. they have a garbage bin and another bin marked recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good they
are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of
how china thinks. ---
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Nightfox wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Fri May 22 2020 10:03 am
Huh? I'm pretty sure the difference in outcome between Trump and Stalin isn't due to term length.
I wasn't suggesting at all that Stalin or Mao were bad due to term length.. That probably had little to do with it. I was just saying
the term limits in the US are supposed to help protect against bad leadership dragging out too long.
Nightfox wrote to Dennisk <=-
I wasn't suggesting at all that Stalin or Mao were bad due to
term length.. That probably had little to do with it. I was
just saying the term limits in the US are supposed to help
protect against bad leadership dragging out too long.
Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty, b I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be
Like I said, they didn't pay enough attention in history class. Stalin, Mao, and others had a tendency to turn on their followers, and even closest friends/allies, too.
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The good thing about
our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we have a chance to change our presi
ent within a few years if we don't like where our current president is leading >he country.
recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good they are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of how china thinks. ---
= Synchronet = ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
For some time (and perhaps now), Australia wasn't recycling either. We sent our garbage and recycling to the same place. Largely because we used to sen our recycling to China and they stopped accepting it some time ago.
i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could go pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag uncrushed cans.
Really? Cans & bottles used to have a 5 cent deposit in Oregon, and last ye they doubled it to 10 cents.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Wed May 20 2020 08:59 am
I would call that statism, though I don't really like that term becauseLiber
tarian
Well, it is statism. A subclass of it if you will.
The other common variant is "Give us all your rights so we can defeat the rich class and give you their stuff". This variant is also very successful because people likes free stuff paid by others :-)
---
= Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
I don't think it is quite like that. Some of the most entitled people I've known, who expect free stuff, are well to do. Our economy is broken, and people know that there is a problem with wealth disparity. The fault lies i the fact that we have no ability to identify constructive change to the syst to make things right again. We are stuck thinking it is a choice between ou current Capitalist system, and Marxism, which isn't so at all. Everyone is trying to get a free ride, rich and poor alike, so you can't blame them for wanting to play along.
The problem isn't Bernie, the problem is the inability to see the actual problem and formulate a solution.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Thu May 21 2020 10:52 am
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The good thing about our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we have a chance to chan our president within a few years if we don't like where our current president is leading the country.
Nightfox
Huh? I'm pretty sure the difference in outcome between Trump and Stalin isn due to term length.
HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Fri May 22 2020 10:02 am
Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty, b I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be
Do yourself a favor and research the "Cuban Missle Crisis" and then
tell us how you feel about communism. What would have happened if those missles became ready to launch?
Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks
is what makes or breaks a contagion.
The last person I saw wearing a mask, was handling items at the supermarket shelf, then putting them back. Kind of defeats the
purpose.
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
at the very core of china is pride and vanity. they do anything and say anything for 'face'. they have a garbage bin and another bin marked recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good they
are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of
how china thinks. ---
The masks don't do anything according to the latest information. COVID-19 mainly spreads through personal contact (think sneeze into your hand, forget wash it, shake hands with someone else, who rubs their eye).
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to MRO on Fri May 22 2020 07:36 pm
recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good the are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of how china thinks. ---
= Synchronet = ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
For some time (and perhaps now), Australia wasn't recycling either. We s our garbage and recycling to the same place. Largely because we used to our recycling to China and they stopped accepting it some time ago.
i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could g pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: MRO to Dennisk on Fri May 22 2020 04:45 pm
i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work cou go pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag uncrushed cans.
Really? Cans & bottles used to have a 5 cent deposit in Oregon, and last ye I kinda think the bottle deposit is pointless, because we can put our recycl llect our cans & bottles and take them somewhere to get the deposit back.
It all adds up.. A 24-pack of something means we're now paying $2.40 extra, tuation, so we had a crap-ton of cans & bottles accumulated in our garage. em, which amounted to getting $25 back.
Nightfox
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Thu May 21 2020 09:21 am
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Wed May 20 2020 08:59 am
I would call that statism, though I don't really like that term becauseLiber
tarian
Well, it is statism. A subclass of it if you will.
The other common variant is "Give us all your rights so we can defeat the rich class and give you their stuff". This variant is also very successful because people likes free stuff paid by others :-)
---
= Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
I don't think it is quite like that. Some of the most entitled people I've known, who expect free stuff, are well to do. Our economy is broken, and people know that there is a problem with wealth disparity. The fault lies i the fact that we have no ability to identify constructive change to the syst to make things right again. We are stuck thinking it is a choice between ou current Capitalist system, and Marxism, which isn't so at all. Everyone is trying to get a free ride, rich and poor alike, so you can't blame them for wanting to play along.
The problem isn't Bernie, the problem is the inability to see the actual problem and formulate a solution.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I do think it is "quite like that" at its core. Of course they don't enounce it that way, and a lot of partakers don't think of in in those terms. The point still is that governments following that model will
put certain groups in its payroll using many different justifications.
At some point, these groups will realize that they either sustain the current status quo or risk being thrown out of the payroll.
Which is why the counter-protestors that are acting against anti-government protestors in Spain nowadays seem to belong to groups
that benefit from government funding...
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Nightfox on Fri May 22 2020 10:03 am
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Thu May 21 2020 10:52 am
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The good thing about our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we have a chance to chan our president within a few years if we don't like where our current president is leading the country.
Nightfox
Huh? I'm pretty sure the difference in outcome between Trump and Stalin isn due to term length.
I think so too.
But politicians that stay in office for long enough ten to end up very badly corrupted. I can think of many examples of people who served in
the order of decades in the same position. They tended to stay so long because they were good administrators or at least it looked like so.
But in the long run they start believing they are untouchable and start acting as jerks, making underground deals or whatever. At some time it
is discovered thay they have built a big corruption network taking advantage of the long time they stood in office.
Hell, rumos has it Felipe Gonzalez, the Spanish minister, started
funding and organizing state-terrorist groups for fighting other
terrorist groups. If true, give such a man another 20 years and there won't be democracy anymore over there.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks
is what makes or breaks a contagion.
The last person I saw wearing a mask, was handling items at the supermarket shelf, then putting them back. Kind of defeats the
purpose.
The masks don't do anything according to the latest information.
COVID-19 mainly spreads through personal contact (think sneeze into
your hand, forget to wash it, shake hands with someone else, who rubs their eye).
As time goes on and we get more information, we are finding that everything that we've done so far as been wrong and based on old (and sometimes just false) information.
Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-
at the very core of china is pride and vanity. they do anything and say anything for 'face'. they have a garbage bin and another bin marked recycle. they both go to the same chute. it makes them feel good they
are recycling, but they are not doing it. that's a prime example of
how china thinks. ---
That's the problem with any of these "progressive" countries.
The people in charge are elitists and they have the egos to prove it.
They have a need to be seen as the "experts" by everyone and want
people to just blindly trust what they have to say.
Admitting that they are wrong 1) hurts their ego and 2) tarnishes their title of "expert". That's why they tend to double down on bad
decisions, hoping that they will succeed (even though that's
impossible), and compounding their error until it becomes huge and
almost impossible to easily fix.
Take the COVID-19 shutdowns here in the U.S. As more data came in, and more of the models we proven to be false, it would have been easy to
say "OK. We had bad data and our decisions were wrong. Now with
better data, we are going to lift the shutdowns." But no. The
elitists double down on their bad decision made with bad data. And
now, when the shutdowns are finally lifted, many companies won't be
coming back - making things even worse.
Oh, I'm not fan of the system to be sure. Communism in Europe fell when I was
11, and it just wasn't really covered that much in Secondary School, so I had to do my own research into not only why it was such a big deal, but also why i
didn't seem as taboo as Nazism. Maybe things are different in Australia, but we just didn't really hear much about it. There is a lot of focus on ensuring
that any type of Nationalism is stamped out, lest it lead to Hitler, but for some reason the type of Political Correctness which made Communism pathologica
(they had "Political Rectitude", the same thing), is allowed to flourish. My guess is in Communism, intellectuals rule, so intellectuals here don't mind such a system.
Before the 10 cent deposit law in Michigan, it was common to see aluminum cans along the sides of roads. Some areas it looked like people dumped their trash by the road. That all changed when the deposit law came into effect. Some would still throw away or toss cans out, but now they get
On 05-24-20 09:48, Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep
vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.
As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.
On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-
I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people
who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history)
are drafted to serve. Just a thought...
I haven't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Any studies you can point to?
I don't use a mask either, because from what I've read/seen, they're pointless for most healthy people. They _may_ (to a limited extent) help prevent an infected person passing the virus on, by reducing one route of transmission (droplets in the air), but won't do much for other routes, like contact (either direct or via shared objects). Basic hygiene will work better there.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
I don't see many wear them in Melbourne. Quite rare where I am, but nevertheless, we have comparitively few cases. So I don't think masks is what makes or breaks a contagion.
The last person I saw wearing a mask, was handling items at the supermarket shelf, then putting them back. Kind of defeats the purpose.
The masks don't do anything according to the latest information. COVID-19 mainly spreads through personal contact (think sneeze into your hand, forget to wash it, shake hands with someone else, who rubs their eye).
As time goes on and we get more information, we are finding that everything that we've done so far as been wrong and based on old (and sometimes just false) information.
There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard that Vitamin levels plays a significant role in how severe the symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask. I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take my chances with COVID-19 than be lock down.
As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-
I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history) are drafted to serve. Just a thought...
That reminded me of an Arthur C Clarke novel "The Songs of Distant Earth". Most of the story takes place on a planet occupied by a long forgotten human colony that had landed around a century earlier (give or take). One of the things that did get mentioned was the process of appointing the President fo the colony, which happened in 2 stages:
1. Anyone who actually wanted the job was automatically eliminated from contention.
2. From the remaining eligible people, a name was drawn at random. That person became the President for the next term.
... Die, my dear doctor? That's the last thing I shall do.
After the initial month of lockdown, I thought we should've seen the it run it's course in whoever had it, or whoever was around someone who had it.
On 05-24-20 11:31, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
There does seem to be something with vitamin D -
https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/05/04/vitamin-d-covid-19-evidence-so-far- 14763
So, I'm like most people, somewhere in the middle. People need to eat
so they need to work. It's true, doesn't seem bad for most. That
being said, I can't tell you how many stories keep coming out from
people losing loved ones or ending up dire straits int he hospital here in America shortly after making posts to Facebook or social media just like this.
I had a friend who spent a month on a ventilator. I also have a friend of a friend who was a marathon runner and it sounds like he's not going to make it. Wearing a mask has shown better than the initial "it only
partially helps stop the spread to someone else" kinda like when they said "this was just the flu."
Plus now that crazy kids disease that is connected -
https://www.cnet.com/health/can-kids-get-covid-19-what-we-know-about-thi s-kawasaki-like-disease-affecting-children/
On 05-24-20 13:31, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I sit on a board of directors for a non-profit conservation club / shooting range. Everyone gripes about the president, however no one
wants to sep up and take the job. It's a no pay position, and the only perks are getting dues paid and having access to the indoor pistol
range 24/7. Most of the presidents we had were good, and at least one wasby no means transparent with regards to where some of the money was going, and would give a different answer to anyone asking the same question.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-was
Oh, I'm not fan of the system to be sure. Communism in Europe fell when I
11, and it just wasn't really covered that much in Secondary School, so Ihad
to do my own research into not only why it was such a big deal, but also whyi
didn't seem as taboo as Nazism. Maybe things are different in Australia,but
we just didn't really hear much about it. There is a lot of focus onensuring
that any type of Nationalism is stamped out, lest it lead to Hitler, but for some reason the type of Political Correctness which made Communismpathologica
(they had "Political Rectitude", the same thing), is allowed to flourish.My
guess is in Communism, intellectuals rule, so intellectuals here don't mind such a system.
That much is the same here. I am not so sure that true intellectuals rule... seems a lot of the people I know who are of that mind are "intellectuals" in the air-quotes sense, like they didn't graduate high school or college (or did so with some impractical degree) but think
they are smarter than everyone else. I think of them as more elitist
than "intellectual."
They also get really triggered if someone points out that communist and fascist regimes, both being totalitarian, have more in common than they don't.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-24-20 09:48, Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
I agree on general immune health. That wouldn't go astray at any time.
Even in a normal year, it will help with colds and flu.
that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep
I haven't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
Any studies you can point to?
vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.
I don't use a mask either, because from what I've read/seen, they're pointless for most healthy people. They _may_ (to a limited extent)
help prevent an infected person passing the virus on, by reducing one route of transmission (droplets in the air), but won't do much for
other routes, like contact (either direct or via shared objects).
Basic hygiene will work better there.
And yeah, a week of mandatory isolation while waiting for test results reminded me that getting out where possible is a better option!
As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.
I've seen a number in local shops. Each to their own, I suppose. Only time I've worn one was when I got tested a few weeks ago, where it was mandatory. Took it off in the car on the way home. :)
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-24-20 09:43, Dennisk wrote to Arelor <=-
I've wondered if whether parliament should be like jury duty, people
who are eligible (have a minimum standard of education, work history)
are drafted to serve. Just a thought...
That reminded me of an Arthur C Clarke novel "The Songs of Distant
Earth". Most of the story takes place on a planet occupied by a long forgotten human colony that had landed around a century earlier (give
or take). One of the things that did get mentioned was the process of appointing the President for the colony, which happened in 2 stages:
1. Anyone who actually wanted the job was automatically eliminated
from contention.
2. From the remaining eligible people, a name was drawn at random.
That person became the President for the next term.
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.
As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-
That much is the same here. I am not so sure that true intellectuals rule... seems a lot of the people I know who are of that mind are "intellectuals" in the air-quotes sense, like they didn't graduate high school or college (or did so with some impractical degree) but think
they are smarter than everyone else. I think of them as more elitist
than "intellectual."
They also get really triggered if someone points out that communist and fascist regimes, both being totalitarian, have more in common than they don't.
Nightfox wrote to Moondog <=-
I think it would take quite a bit longer than that to run its course.
And with places starting to open up again, I've heard people say
they're concerned about a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder than the first.
system, a class separate to workers. That many of these self styles intellectuals are quite silly, yes, yes they are. Is this why there is bellachying about "anti-intellectualism" and the rise of "populism?" Perhaps so.
I think it would take quite a bit longer than that to run its course. And with
places starting to open up again, I've heard people say they're concerned about
a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder than the first.
And with places starting to open up again, I've heard people say
they're concerned about a 2nd wave of COVID that might hit even harder
than the first.
I suspect it will. Just this morning, I saw a crawler on the news that said that Trump was tightening travel restrictions to/from Brazil because that country has seen a spike/second wave of infections.
Interesting. Taken with the caveats that come with quickly released studies (lack of peer review, causation vs correlation, etc), it does seem that there may be something here. For myself, Vitamin D is something I generally don't have to worry out. I spend considerable time outside all year round, and my annual checkups have never indicated a deficiency here (surprise surprise! :D
Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.
I'd really like to ask the people not wearing masks "Why are'nt you wearing a mask?" Do you feel you're invincible? Do you just not care about others?"
What do I do if I see someone without a mask sneeze on the meat? Or are grocers not selling meat? I think I'm better off staying home. I don't need to see this shit.
Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.
On 05-24-20 13:31, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I sit on a board of directors for a non-profit conservation club / shooting range. Everyone gripes about the president, however no one wants to sep up and take the job. It's a no pay position, and the only perks are getting dues paid and having access to the indoor pistol range 24/7. Most of the presidents we had were good, and at least one wasby no means transparent with regards to where some of the money was going, and would give a different answer to anyone asking the same question.
Yes, that sounds like the typical non profit/community group president, thou here, most presidents or board/committee members still have to pay their own dues. It's not the easiest job in the world, but for most, it's a labour of love and commitment towards the organisation and its members. However, in m book, the hardest job on a board is the secretary. That's a very full on jo and I respect anyone willing to stand up and do it. Not a job I'd take on myself, paid or unpaid.
Unfortunately, some boards do lose sight of what their role is supposed to b and become self serving, and they give everyone a bad name. :(
I have help a president role once or twice, vice president on a couple and ordinary board member on many occasions for various organisations.
... You're from the planet Earth, aren't you?
DaiTengu wrote to HusTler <=-
I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who
isn't wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any
good though.
I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
by the time I get home.
If you assume that the Media is just the Left's propaganda ministry, it's not baffling at all.
Some groups out there just want to create fear and any news that allays that fear is dropped and covered up.
When I've thought about the question "who likes Socialism?", I've found that I can group them into 3 kinds of people:
1. The power hungry. Socialism is rule by gov't. If you run the gov't, you rule the people.
2. The elite. As you've said, they think that they are smarter than everyone else. They have an attitude of "Things would be so much better if I ran everything." They are naive enough to think that the power hungry will allow them to implement their ideas, and ignorant enough to think that their ideas can actually work.
3. The lazy and stupid.
partially helps stop the spread to someone else" kinda like when they said "this was just the flu."
Got any evidence? Unless I hear solid evidence otherwise, I feel that the masks are best left for the medics who need all the protection they can get, and any specific cases that justify them.
with unwashed hands, and enforce washing hands. if someone is walking aroun without a mask coughing, and spitting juices while they speak, they can cove a large area with their mouths and unwashed hands. Wearing a mask has becom a courtesy to your fellow human beings.
I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who
isn't wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any
good though.
What won't do any good? ...the yelling, or the mask...? ;-)
I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
by the time I get home.
I got news for ya... You *ARE* easily stressed out, if that
little evolution stresses you out. No doubt about that.
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't weari one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.
I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained by the time I get home.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-pl ummet-new-study-says
i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd wearWhy did you change the poop?
I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have to go
to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained by the
time I get home.
I feel the same way. Did you see on the news all the people flocking to the beaches without masks on? Let's see if there's a "second wave". I doubt people would grow a brain even if there is one.
On 05-25-20 19:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I actually heard it on a Joe Rogan podcast, but a quick web search
reveals results.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32377965/
One thing I see at work is people running their hands down the
bannisters. A far more likely source of transmission.
Must just be my suburb. I see a lot of people out on the weekends too,
and kids hanging out (this was weeks ago), so I don't think people here care as much.
On 05-25-20 19:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I do remember that in the book. Another option is nomination. If
someone gets enough nominations, they go in the draw. You would
probably need a combination of draftees and professionals, and maybe it wouldn't work at all. But either way, I think being governed by career politicians has proven to be a failure.
On 05-25-20 10:50, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I got a physical many years ago that showed Vitamin D deficiency. The doc wanted me to start taking Vitamin D. So I looked it up, and was
like damn, that's an important one, but also you can take too much. So
I started running outside (not marathons lol, but I have done one), and taking a men's one a day. With those two small life changes, I've
always had solid D numbers.
I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd
wear N95 masks. I still had a shed sitting in a closet. When this started I donated them to a hospital. I don't have any studies at the ready, but some things I have read. I think I also saw that there was
a correlation between countries that normally wear masks outside vs spread (I realize that may be anecdotal).
On 05-25-20 11:10, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Masks not only protect from airborne pathoigens, but for the most part
now they prevent the spread of bodily fluids leaving the mouth and
On 05-25-20 11:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Treasurer and membership roles are the positions we see the most
burnout. Since we've had some older board members step down, we have
been able to utilize more technology to streamline our processes.
Since I've been a member, we rose from 260 member 20 years ago to 530.
At one time we considered capping our membership at 300, and now we
figure 600 is where we'd want to rop off at. It's become more than
just finding eager people to accept the positions but also they need skills or abiliites they can bring to the board.
On 05-25-20 19:10, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Not saying this counts, but interesting -
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would- plummet-new-study-says
Trump was elected on fearmongering, because the republicans are afraid of th own shadow.
DaiTengu
Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
By: Moondog to Vk3jed on Mon May 25 2020 11:10 am
with unwashed hands, and enforce washing hands. if someone is walking ar without a mask coughing, and spitting juices while they speak, they can c a large area with their mouths and unwashed hands. Wearing a mask has be a courtesy to your fellow human beings.
i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-
I'm not easily "stressed out" or whatever, but any time I have
to go to the grocery store for 30 minutes, I'm completely drained
by the time I get home.
I got news for ya... You *ARE* easily stressed out, if that
little evolution stresses you out. No doubt about that.
What stresses me out is people crawling up on me while I'm
patently waiting 6 feet away from someone else to grab something
from the shelves, or treating grocery shopping like it's a family
outing. They show up with 4 adults and 8 kids, and they let their germ-infested crotchgoblins run around, stick their fingers in
their mouth, and then touch everything.
Granted, that's an extreme example, but fuck. My wife has a
compromised immune system. My parents are in their late 80s, and
my dad has type 1 diabetes. If I was to bring home that
coronavirus, it's entirely possible I'd kill the 3 most important
people in my life right now.
So, fuck yeah I'm stressed out. and I'll take every goddamn
precaution I can, and I'll get angry because someone refuses to
wear a mask simply because "it looks silly" or "it's
uncomfortable".
Wear your fucking mask. It's not for your own good, it's for
everyone else's.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
There is also a baffling lack of information on how people could boost their immune systems to avoid getting in the first place. I've heard
that Vitamin D levels plays a significant role in how severe the
symptoms are. Now with people locked inside, are they told to keep vitamin D levels up? Keep a healthy diet? I don't bother with a mask.
I'm not too worried about the virus. At this point, I'd rather take
my chances with COVID-19 than be locked down.
If you assume that the Media is just the Left's propaganda ministry,
it's not baffling at all.
Some groups out there just want to create fear and any news that allays that fear is dropped and covered up.
We've known for quite some time now that COVID-19 hits people who are unhealthy. The Vitamin D and healthy diet are just more details to
that.
My wife and I aren't too worried either. We caught a mysterious
illness back in Dec./Jan. and figured it was COVID-19 (we are hoping to get an antibody test so prove that). But we don't wear masks and we
get out and walk every day, plus we have maintained our healthy diet.
As I said, I don't see many masks in Melbourne, though I don't get out much so its based on very limited observation. But where I work, with contractors coming in, no masks. Yet our infection rates are low.
From what I'm seeing in my local area, people are only wearing masks as more of a symbol. They are ignoring the stay-at-home rules. They
getting out as much as they can. The beaches have many people (parking
is hard because they closed the parking lots). I think most people realize that this is BS.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-Perhaps
system, a class separate to workers. That many of these self styles intellectuals are quite silly, yes, yes they are. Is this why there is bellachying about "anti-intellectualism" and the rise of "populism?"
so.
Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.
<GRIN>
i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
I used to raise chickens and when I changed the poop and stuff, I'd wearWhy did you change the poop?
Australia's medical advisers advised that masks were unnecessary, and our infection rates are very low. Other factors are obviously more important.
The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worry about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We simply don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all be positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.
On 05-25-20 11:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Treasurer and membership roles are the positions we see the most burnout. Since we've had some older board members step down, we have
Yes, I can understand that fully. They are busy positions.
been able to utilize more technology to streamline our processes.
Since I've been a member, we rose from 260 member 20 years ago to 530. At one time we considered capping our membership at 300, and now we figure 600 is where we'd want to rop off at. It's become more than just finding eager people to accept the positions but also they need skills or abiliites they can bring to the board.
Modernisation can certainly help manage the workload in those key roles and allow a board to do more with the same resources or even less. And sometime it does require a changing of the guard to implement major changes like new technology.
... The manner in which it is given is worth more than the gift.
Re: Re: Masks and Social Dist
By: MRO to Moondog on Mon May 25 2020 06:48 pm
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
In Oregon where I live, people aren't allowed to pump their own gas by law. Oregon has gas station attendants who will pump gas for you. Recently, duri the COVID lockdown, Oregon decided they'd let people pump their own gas for their car. As far as spreading germs, the idea seemed counter-intuitive to me.. I'd think it would be safer to continue to let gas station attendants pump gas for you so that not everyone is touching the pumps and potentially spreading COVID.
Brazil's president Bolsonaro has been dismissing COVID as no big deal.
When asked by a reporter about what he thinks about the rising COVID death toll
in Brazil, he said "What do you want me to do about it? I'm not the Messiah, I
don't work miracles."
https://youtu.be/SQYvA6NjOdo
I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't wearing >one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.
My theory is that he got elected as a backslash against leftist abuse of identitary politics, theory I have already shared around.
The masks most people are wearing are designed to prevent the people wearing i
from spreading virus they may be carrying. That much people could have learnt
Brazil's president Bolsonaro has been dismissing COVID as no big deal.
When asked by a reporter about what he thinks about the rising COVID
death toll in Brazil, he said "What do you want me to do about it? I'm
not the Messiah, I don't work miracles."
https://youtu.be/SQYvA6NjOdo
You don't like to hear the leader of your country say something like that. However, I am starting to believe he somewhat has a point... (1) there seem to be a lot of folks that expect their leader to work miracles, and (2) I am personally starting to believe that it will take a miracle worker to get us out of this (and has since Day 1).
To point 2, as I am not certain that anyone can pull off such a miracle, I think we are stuck.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 05-25-20 19:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I do remember that in the book. Another option is nomination. If
someone gets enough nominations, they go in the draw. You would
probably need a combination of draftees and professionals, and maybe it wouldn't work at all. But either way, I think being governed by career politicians has proven to be a failure.
I think something has to change. As you point out, career politicians haven't always served us well. :/
The Lizard Master wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Tue May 26 2020 07:51 pm
The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worry about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We simply don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all be positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.
I never heard that once in America. It was all about flattening the curve to give us some time to figure out what to do. Basically risk management, not let's shut down so no one gets it. I didn't hear one person even thinking that.
On 05-26-20 12:19, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Tue May 26 2020 08:03 pm
Australia's medical advisers advised that masks were unnecessary, and our infection rates are very low. Other factors are obviously more important.
They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.
On 05-26-20 12:43, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We alos started a side project updating our standard operating
procedures. So me items don't fall into what one would assume be part
of a job descrition, so we're trying to close those holes. Before we voted in directors with technical skills, maintaining the web site or acquiring laptops, copiers or other business related items would go to whoever stepped up to help.
On 05-27-20 18:32, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Well, as George Carlin said, the reason that politicians stink, is
because we stink. They come from us. Perhaps this is the best we can
do.
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what,
rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if
they catch the virus.
At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that
perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one
is going to admit that.
What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.
Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-
Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.
MRO wrote to Moondog <=-
i dont believe masks are effective. i think we have no control over
this covid19 and the masks and other dumb shit we do makes us feel in control.
do you pump gas? go to a store?
you lose. you are exposed.
Arelor wrote to DaiTengu <=-
Trump was elected on fearmongering, because the republicans are afraid of th own shadow.
My theory is that he got elected as a backslash against leftist abuse
of identitary politics, theory I have already shared around.
The Lizard Master wrote to Dennisk <=-
I never heard that once in America.
It was all about flattening the
curve to give us some time to figure out what to do. Basically risk management, not let's shut down so no one gets it. I didn't hear one person even thinking that.
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Dennisk to Dr. What on Tue May 26 2020 07:51 pm
The thought is, if people don't ever catch it, then we don't need to worr about anything else. This is the modus operandi of the West now. We sim don't learn how to deal with problems or compromise, because we must all positive and say we can avoid it completely. Of course, you have to determine what you will do if (when) the virus does spread, but precautionary principle says never let it spread, don't manage, avoid.
I never heard that once in America. It was all about flattening the curve t
---TLM
They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.
Well, something's working over here.
I never heard that once in America.
You should listen to our worthless Governor here in Michigan.
On 05-26-20 12:43, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We alos started a side project updating our standard operating procedures. So me items don't fall into what one would assume be part of a job descrition, so we're trying to close those holes. Before we voted in directors with technical skills, maintaining the web site or acquiring laptops, copiers or other business related items would go to whoever stepped up to help.
Sounds like they have it all in hand. :)
... Being normal isn't one of my strengths...It's something we have to do. Another part of operating procedures moves the group away from tribal knowledge. Imagine a group or yeam as being a tribe, and one member is good at hunting, another is good at fishing, one knows how
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what, rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if they catch the virus.
There are several things here in the U.S.
1. A growing number of people who want someone else to take care of them (i. tell them what to do, what's best for them, etc.) and they are quite willing make that the gov't.
2. A growing number of people in gov't who want that power to tell people ho to live their lives.
3. The schools are failing. They are failing to educate. They are failing teach critical thinking. They are failing to teach people how to actually think for themselves.
4. A media (not journalists or news) that is more interested in eyeballs tha truth and who are run by the power hungry elitists.
So you have people who want to be in control, who can't ever be seen as weak anything. They don't want management. They want control. The Media feeds that by broadcasting only negative information - which puts people (who are already poor thinkers) in a panic state which makes them think even less. A that leads to the desire to "eliminate" risk.
Most people know that elimination of risk is not possible. But we don't control the megaphones of society (i.e. schools, media), so that message is just noise behind the propaganda.
At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one is going to admit that.
And that's part of the problem. You're right that, at first, we didn't know and overreacted (in hindsight). As new information came in, we should have adjusted our policies. But...
1. The elitists can't do that because changing their decision will make them seem less of an expert. So they must double down on their bad reaction.
2. The control freaks don't want to let go of their power - even though it's hurting everyone.
3. The Media doesn't want the crisis to go away. They don't make money if people aren't watching their content.
4. All that misinformtion makes the stupid people scared and fan the propaga (by wearing masks while driving their car, for example).
What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.
Based on what we've seen so far, there will be no "second spike". COVID-19 will be just another flu strain come fall.
... A girl a day keeps the wife away.
On 05-27-20 17:49, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
Re: Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed May 27 2020 08:15 pm
They said the same thing here too. At the start it was just wash your hands and be wary of touching your face.
Well, something's working over here.
That's what they said here vs Italy.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
I think it is placing precaution over risk management. I see this professionally as well, as risk management relates to my career. The modern thought is to eliminate any source of risk, no matter what,
rather than deal with with risk and manage it. Lockdowns are precautionary, they remove the possibility of getting a virus. How to boost your immune system is management, it reduces risk to someone if
they catch the virus.
There are several things here in the U.S.
1. A growing number of people who want someone else to take care of
them (i.e. tell them what to do, what's best for them, etc.) and they
are quite willing to make that the gov't.
2. A growing number of people in gov't who want that power to tell
people how to live their lives.
3. The schools are failing. They are failing to educate. They are failing to teach critical thinking. They are failing to teach people
how to actually think for themselves.
4. A media (not journalists or news) that is more interested in
eyeballs than truth and who are run by the power hungry elitists.
So you have people who want to be in control, who can't ever be seen as weak on anything. They don't want management. They want control. The Media feeds that by broadcasting only negative information - which puts people (who are already poor thinkers) in a panic state which makes
them think even less. And that leads to the desire to "eliminate"
risk.
Most people know that elimination of risk is not possible. But we
don't control the megaphones of society (i.e. schools, media), so that message is just noise behind the propaganda.
At the start no one was sure, but now that we are finding out that
perhaps some of the actions in hindsight may be an overreaction, no one
is going to admit that.
And that's part of the problem. You're right that, at first, we didn't know and overreacted (in hindsight). As new information came in, we should have adjusted our policies. But...
1. The elitists can't do that because changing their decision will make them seem less of an expert. So they must double down on their bad reaction. 2. The control freaks don't want to let go of their power -
even though it's hurting everyone.
3. The Media doesn't want the crisis to go away. They don't make money
if people aren't watching their content.
4. All that misinformtion makes the stupid people scared and fan the propaganda (by wearing masks while driving their car, for example).
What is interesting is what will happen when there is a second spike.
Based on what we've seen so far, there will be no "second spike".
COVID-19 will be just another flu strain come fall.
On 05-28-20 00:42, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Same applies to an office or board. The organization may have
contracts or special partnerships with vendors, and those relations
should not dissolve if a board member leaves unless there's a better
way to do it.
Well, something's working over here.
That's what they said here vs Italy.
I'll let the stats speak for themselves
As of this morning in Australia:
7139 yoyal xases
103 deaths
6566 recovered.
That's slightly over 4 deaths per million population and less than one death per 70 cases.
On 05-28-20 00:42, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Same applies to an office or board. The organization may have contracts or special partnerships with vendors, and those relations should not dissolve if a board member leaves unless there's a better way to do it.
There's another name for that: "Succession planning" - making sure that peo and resources are still available in the event of board members resigning or passing away.
... I've always been a bit maturer that what I am.
False comparison. We have many more tools to deal with flu - vaccines,20-30k/year die in the US from the flu... we don't lock everything
treatments for those who have the disease. And there's also a degree of >>> natural immunity in the population to the flu. This coronavirus has none of
those, except perhaps some people may be less susceptible, vut we don't know
enough.
down.. and that's with vacines etc. Locking things down won't actually
save many, because the disease is still spreading.
You're WAAAAY beyond that in a few months with COVID-19. I've lost track of the casualties over there, but it was something over 80,000 last time I heard,
but that was days ago.
There's not a single reason the same rules for grocery stores and food
processors can't be followed for most jobs. Unless you're advocating
to also lock down the grocery stores and fast food drive throughs as
well?
Whatever those rules are (multiple jurisdictions between us).
One does have to ask why Australia only has 100 deaths (4 per million population) and the USA has a figure closer to 100,000 (at least 70 or 80 times
Australia on a per head basis).
I'm pretty certain the DNC will have a different nomination, likely
Bloomberg.
I didn't think he did well enough in the primaries he was in to do well otherwise. He didn't do too well in the debates, IIRC, either.
Stalin and Mao led their countries for fairly long terms. The
good thing about our 4-year 2-term limits in the US is that we
have a chance to change our president within a few years if we
don't like where our current president is leading the country.
Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty, but
I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be honest, very little of this was covered. I had to ask my mum what Communism was, and the answer I got was "where the government owns everything" which left
me wondering what the deal was. History class tended to gloss over it. It was
just a "cold war", and the Soviet Union was some big scary thing that scared people and that was it. Why they killed people, the motivation for control, their "political correctness", nada.
As for Mao, even less. I guess there is no politcal cache in it.
I'm glad to see "globalism" dying. I really am. We may start to move back towards a social model which serves communities again, instead of a wannbe-elite drunk on the idea of being "global".
Do yourself a favor and research the "Cuban Missle Crisis" and
then tell us how you feel about communism. What would have happened
if those missles became ready to launch?
i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could go pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.
Yes, they don't like for their (lack of) intellectualism to be pointed out.
Yes, that's one way I've found on Facebook to shut up the insufferable elites:
point out how naive they are.
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri May 22 2020 05:40 pm
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag uncrushed cans.
Really? Cans & bottles used to have a 5 cent deposit in Oregon, and last ye they doubled it to 10 cents.
it just doesnt pay well anymore. people picked themselves out of poverty and ran their own businesses by recycling.
in the 90s it was good extra cash.
i can get all kinds of metals from work for and take them to scrap them. it's not even worth the gas money and effort.
On 5/15/2020 8:33 AM, Dumas Walker wrote:
I'm pretty certain the DNC will have a different nomination, likely
Bloomberg.
I didn't think he did well enough in the primaries he was in to do well otherwise. He didn't do too well in the debates, IIRC, either.
Primary voters tend to be the most extreme in a given party, not the greater population. Combined with the DNC being one of the most corrupt organizations on the planet, it wouldn't surprise me.
Bloomberg would have a greater chance of actually winning... But who knows.
Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-bu
On 5/21/2020 5:02 PM, Dennisk wrote:
Or they just didn't learn it. The Cold War ended before I reached puberty,
tlef
I do remember worry about nuclear war and about the Soviet Union. But to be honest, very little of this was covered. I had to ask my mum what Communism was, and the answer I got was "where the government owns everything" which
twa
me wondering what the deal was. History class tended to gloss over it. It
s
just a "cold war", and the Soviet Union was some big scary thing that scared people and that was it. Why they killed people, the motivation for control, their "political correctness", nada.
As for Mao, even less. I guess there is no politcal cache in it.
If you ever get the chance, talk to an ex-patriated russian or chinese
(or taiwanese) person... They can be much more informative.
It's also worth noting there isn't a single faction of socialism or communism... in fact, in the early part of the 1900's there were three major socialist factions killing eachother in Russia. Not to mention
that Fascism is in fact another weird type of socialism.
There is often still currency in Socialist societies and some have been managed better than others. China, despite human abuses and a complete disrespect for individual sovereign, has been better managed than any
of the others. Russia by contrast, horribly managed. Both have killed tends of millions of their own countrymen either by starvation and/or
by removing dissent.
Capitalism has never approached the level of shear death for contrarian political views. Communist countries are usually lead into poverty and bancruptcy as a whole. China only thrives because of the foreign investment and capitalism they have allowed. And their foreign negotiations are increadibly thoughtful, to the detriment of the rest
of the world.
Communism just doesn't work at scale, and not without non-communism to trade with.
Unfortunately, the educational system is indoctrinated by people that
are only the woke of the woke and support such regigmes.
Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 5/21/2020 4:04 AM, Dennisk wrote:
I'm glad to see "globalism" dying. I really am. We may start to move back towards a social model which serves communities again, instead of a wannbe-elite drunk on the idea of being "global".
I'm mostly okay with open trade with countries that have reciprocal
open trade and similar workplace environments (safety, no child labor, limits on hours per week).
What surprises me more is that we as a culture (USA) would allow more
than half of our critical infrastructure, communications and
medications to be manufactured overseas at all, just from a security perspective. And that there hasn't been legislation to require as much moving forward.
On 05-28-20 14:37, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yeah, it looks great NZ too (I have family in NZ, I know its not the
same ha) reported zero cases yesterday I think? I'm just saying our stats looked better than Italy's at first, and Brazil was recently
saying the same thing. I'm sure you are more healthy and higer vitamin
D per capita too. It's not apples to apples.
On 05-28-20 14:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We're also implementing succession planning. The building that we use
for a meeting hall is a pole barn that was originally built to house an
On 05-28-20 14:50, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We're attributing about 110k so far in the US, but reports are somewhat unreliable as some places are reporting anyone with COVID markers as a covid death even if they were shot. Which is still well within bounds
of a bad flu year.
Well, travel to/from origin regions is part of the start of the
infection rate, population density is another large factor, and another
still is just luck and risk. Most of those infected don't see death.
Those that are dying are generally those with the greatest health risks already, and the US in general is probably less healthy, with less sun exposure than the average Australian this time of year, which is Winter/spring in the USA vs Fall/Winter in au. Not to mention higher temperatures tends to lower risk dramatically on its' own.
Even given all of that, there's still no significant reason to do more than necessary to slow the spread to what emergency services can
handle, as over the course of 18 months, roughly the same number of
people overall will be infected before there is a vaccine, and getting heard immunity faster will provide more prevention for the broader communities.
I want to yell "Wear a fucking mask!" at every single person who isn't
wearing one that I see in a grocery store. It won't do any good though.
I wear one, but some people really cannot. If I see one, I try to avoid them.
That seems more correct. The Left is more into fearmongering, but then the Left always projects.
I collected all the bottles and cans that my family (of 5) generated over 2 years. It was about 200lbs worth and netted me about $250 at the recycle yard after 2 trips with a van full of bags. Not worth the hassle at all. We don't bother now. :-(
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
Do you think that part of that desire for control, is a lack of trust
in people? I see this at the workplace.
The education
system fits this, as it basically institutionalises people and teaches them how to follow, not create.
Take for example the desire for people
to create locked down computers or phones, its part control, but also
part a lack of trust in the user. Apple/Microsoft don't trust the user
to manage their phone or computer, or trust others, so they create
walled gardens. It's all very, paternal.
I have first hand experience with managers who quite literally are just grasping at straws with regards to what to do about COVID-19. The
ruling elite most likely don't know what they are doing, and just
acting arbitrarily.
Flu infections rate rise and fall. Coronavirus will spread more, as
will the common cold and flu, because as social restrictions are
relaxed. This will mean person to person trasmissions rates will rise above their current, suppressed levels. The question is, whether this will result in more restrictions.
Vk3jed wrote to The Lizard Master <=-
As of this morning in Australia:
7139 yoyal xases
103 deaths
6566 recovered.
That's slightly over 4 deaths per million population and less than one death per 70 cases.
Let's see some comparisons from other countries.
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.
Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.
On 5/22/2020 2:45 PM, MRO wrote:
i wish recycling wasnt mandatory here. people that were out of work could pickup cans and make decent money. now that things are mandatory, prices dropped. it's not worth it to recycle for money.
before this happened they could make 10 usd in today's money for a bag of uncrushed cans.
Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
just use a single bin and sort it all together.
--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS
On 05-28-20 14:18, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
We're also implementing succession planning. The building that we use for a meeting hall is a pole barn that was originally built to house an
Hmm, succession planning to me is about people (succession...), but yeah you definitely making good plans for the future thee.
... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
DaiTengu wrote to Dr. What <=-
Trump was literally elected by scaring the shit out of his
conservative base.
My comment above was in reference to the fact that I see about 75% of people NO
wearing masks in my area.
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but th vast majority don't get it.
... Veni, vedi, VCR: I came, I saw, I dubbed.
Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-
Dennisk wrote to Dr. What <=-
Do you think that part of that desire for control, is a lack of trust
in people? I see this at the workplace.
You bring up a good point here. I've seen the same thing in the places that I've worked at.
From what I've seen that lack of trust is based on two fallacies
1. the boss is the smartest person in the room
2. if you aren't doing it the way the boss thinks it should be done,
then you are doing it wrong.
In some cases, because of those fallacies, the worker does it exactly
the way the boss wants - which, of course, doesn't work and causes the boss to not trust that person.
That said, the previous company I worked for decided to "outsource" a bunch of their IT to contractors from India and the company's motto was "Why pay more?", so you can guess that we didn't get the best
contractors.
The contractors made mistake after mistake. But instead of getting rid
of the incompetants, the company doubled down on their bad decision and just kept putting useless processes around getting code changes pushed into production.
The education
system fits this, as it basically institutionalises people and teaches them how to follow, not create.
I've often remarked how our school systems seem to want to create
factory workers instead of people who can think for themselves.
Take for example the desire for people
to create locked down computers or phones, its part control, but also
part a lack of trust in the user. Apple/Microsoft don't trust the user
to manage their phone or computer, or trust others, so they create
walled gardens. It's all very, paternal.
I have to disagree with the "lack of trust". The walled gardens are purely a business decision to maximize profits. Apple has been doing
that for a long, long time. They **say** it's about "protecting the user", but if that was the case, they would have a way for for us knowledgeable people to turn that protection off, if we choose.
I have first hand experience with managers who quite literally are just grasping at straws with regards to what to do about COVID-19. The
ruling elite most likely don't know what they are doing, and just
acting arbitrarily.
Which is what happening here in Michigan. Our Tyrant... er.. Governor
is making decisions based on bad models that have neen disproven and,
even then, the decisions have no rational thought behind them at all.
Flu infections rate rise and fall. Coronavirus will spread more, as
will the common cold and flu, because as social restrictions are
relaxed. This will mean person to person trasmissions rates will rise above their current, suppressed levels. The question is, whether this will result in more restrictions.
It will if the control freaks can spin the numbers and panic people
more.
I think we are fighting 2 battles right now:
1. Against the people who want to seize power and control us.
2. Misinformation that causes people to be afraid - which reduces their ability to think clearly (i.e. they are more apt to let the control
freaks have more power).
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 06:31 pm
Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.
I beg to differ.
Speaking of a case I know because it is close, if you check Spanish Fascist propaganda from both the present and the past, you can tell it
is extremely socialistic.
The whole point for them is that the means of production are to be controled by Unions, and that strategic services belong to the country, which means they belong to people. Because the country is the people.
What happened in practice is that Union leaders were appointed by
General Francisco Franco and friends but the whole idea was that
strategic services belonged to the people through Unions and
government. If you check the whole rethoric it is easy to see Fascism worked a lot like State Communism, but instead of class struggle, their based their propaganda on "national struggle" (our people against the
rest of the world).
On the other hand, in my opinion, economic systems built around the concept of wealth distribution have socialist tendencies at the very least. This includes National _Socialism_. In fact the Nazi party had internal struggles with dead people over the application of socialist policies.
---
= Synchronet = Vertrauen = Home of Synchronet = [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.
On 05-29-20 10:48, Dr. What wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The problem with stats is that they are so easily subverted.
Here in the U.S., the death stats are simply wrong. We have people in hospitals that are being told to list a death as COVID-19 even if it
had nothing to do with the death. So if a person was in a car accident and died in the hospital from those injuries, if they tested positive
for COVID-19, then it was a COVID-19 death.
If you look at the stats, you'll see that we've pretty much eliminated things like heart disease (because those numbers dropped heavily) while COVID-19 numbers went up. That's pretty fishy to me.
Others have done a more in depth analysis of the numbers and are now saying that our actualy COVID-19 death numbers are actually closer to
50% what is being reported.
As far as COVID-19 cases go, most people had it, didn't show symptoms, never got tested and recovered. Those numbers are rarely added to the cases number. Based on the antibody tests so far, the case numbers are
off by a factor of 50-85 (i.e. 50 to 85 TIMES the reported numbers).
So, for compairson, what did Australia count? The real numbers, or the same fake numbers that other countries did?
On 05-29-20 15:19, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Having a focus or long term plan makes using the clubs resources
wisely. In the past buildings owuld've been built and earth moved
On 05-29-20 12:38, The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that
ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been
okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.
On 05-29-20 21:28, Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point
to be admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how
vulnerable the older
folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I
can imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for the normal flu shots.
So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, bu the vast majority don't get it.
Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID just fin as is...
|08Paulie|15420
|15M|08@|15STERM|07i|15ND
|14AmericanPiBBS|04.com|07
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Dr. What to Moondog on Fri May 29 2020 10:14 am
I seriously doubt we will have a vaccine by fall.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but the vast majority don't get it.
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other,
Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point to be >admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how vulnerable the older
folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I can
imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for >the normal flu shots.
And who's going to take it? We've had flu shots for a long time now, but
the vast majority don't get it.
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm
So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.
Hello, Dennisk,
I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or
Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I
also think it is very dangerous.
Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is
Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because
they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those
old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted
to sell you to the Jew.
Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.
I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.
So what is a b
You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this week.
I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people thin that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I pref to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm
So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.
Hello, Dennisk,
I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I also think it is very dangerous.
I will have to confess a degree of ignorance about modern Spanish politics. think the question here is, what socio-economic system is normative? You ar suggesting that ANY Socialist-like system must not be considered?
If that is so, where does that leave us? Does this mean we cannot question Capitalism?
Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted to sell you to the Jew.
Perhaps ANY anti-establishment system will also be anti-Capitalist. I don't subscribe to the idea that Capitalism is some natural system, it is an accid of history. It stands to reason, from purely logical grounds, that people would move towards some type of "socialist-like" system, because we are a social species.
Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.
I've noted this too, and this mislabelling makes no sense. People are just throwing out the "fascist" label as a smear, not a descriptor of that person politics.
I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.
But then what is NOT a Socialist system? I am viewing things in terms of ho we could move from our current situation. I see our world as being stuck, ossified, unable to adapt to change or fix structural problems. The automat rejection of any change of the system, by such labelling is an issue.
I'm looking to the FUTURE, and seeing that the West is in decline, and we wi lose our position in terms of quality of life, and power in the world. Our economic system in part is dead. How do we solve the problem of concentrati of wealth? Of a small number of people undermining nations by control of capital? There are errors itself in Capitalism, and these have to be addressed.
But the question is, how far can we deviate from the current system, without being labelled "Socialism" or "Socialist-like", and taken off the table?
As I said, I support an ownership economy and universal self employment. I believe that Capital is making claims to productive activity that are not justified. Are these "Socialist" ideas? Because if in your analysis, this i "socialist-like", then I would rather side with the Patriotic-Socialist part than the current system.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
On 05-31-20 02:48, Wizzkidd wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/NITEEYES
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Vk3jed to Tracker1 on Fri May 29 2020 07:36 pm
So what is a b
a female dog
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Fri May 29 2020 09:59 am
You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this week.
It's kind of rare to see projecting projecting. It's usually when you're wa
DaiTengu wrote to Dr. What <=-
You're literally projecting here. You're projecting fearmongering and projecting projecting. This is the most meta shit I've seen this
week.
"They want to take away all our guns!"
"Countless innocent American lives have been stolen because ourpoliticians have failed in their duty to secure our borders!"
"Socialism will destroy our country!"
Trump was literally elected by scaring the shit out of his conservative base.
The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that
ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been
okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.
HusTler wrote to Dr. What <=-
Control is an illusion. Nobody has control over anyone or anything
in this world. We all could be gone (Dead) tomorrow and there's not a
damn thing we can do about. Sure you may think you have control but the the reality is you don't.
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
Back in 2010 the swine flu kicked my ass. I wasn't quite at the point
to be admittied in a hospital, but it made me more aware of how
vulnerable the older
folks are. When the vaccine does appear, people will line up, but I
can imagine within 2-3 years turnout won't be much more than what it is now for the normal flu shots.
paulie420 wrote to Dr. What <=-
Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking
any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID just fine as is...
Moondog wrote to Arelor <=-
I think that is a fair choice of words. By definition fascism is right wing anti-socialist authoritarian nationalism. Society and the economy are strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state.
The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.
I've gotten my flu shot every year since college.
One year, I was visiting my grandparents and they told me that we were all going to get a flu shot. I didn't think much of it, so I got it. I was one the few that didn't get hit with the flu that year in college.
Yea, I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist... but I won't be taking pa>> any round 1, first at bat vaccine they come up with. I'm handling COVID pa>> just fine as is...
But, as a computer professional of over 30 years, I've long ago learned
never to trust version 1.0 of anything. 8)
So we won't be getting the vaccine (my wife may be required to, though, for her job).
I don't know what definition of "fascism" you are using, but it's certainly right wing.
Your own description "Society and the economy are strictly controlled in ord to maintain a strong one party state." places it fascism squarely on the lef
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other,
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that ended up in the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 and the Flu at the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one or the other, ended up on a vent and almost died.
What was your friend's health before this happened? Obese? Diabetic?
Taking meds? Or had some other pre-existing condition? Over 80% affected terribly by covid19 usually have some other problem already.
At some point, my wife's job will have her get an antibody test. If that comes back positive, then I know I have it as well.
Moondog wrote to Arelor <=-
I think that is a fair choice of words. By definition fascism is right wing anti-socialist authoritarian nationalism. Society and the economy are strictly controlled in order to maintain a strong one party state.
I don't know what definition of "fascism" you are using, but it's certainly right wing.
Your own description "Society and the economy are strictly controlled in ord to maintain a strong one party state." places it fascism squarely on the lef
Many people think that "socialism" is rule of the people. But that's always been false. It's rule of gov't. So whoever runs the gov't effectively rule the people. That's why socialist (and fascist) states have always devolved into totalitarian states.
... Get gun. Shoot computer. Turn off lights...
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Sat May 30 2020 10:58 am
I do, and I highly suggest everyone does. The friend of mine that end up the hospital at 32 because of Covid tested positive for Covid-19 an the Flu the same time. He probably would have been okay with just one the other,
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
That's what the shot does.
That's what the shot does.
keep dreaming about the shot
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun May 31 2020 10:38 am
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat May 30 2020 01:01 pm
So while I think your analysis of history is correct, for pragmatic and political reasons, I would not class Fascism as a form of Socialism.
Hello, Dennisk,
I agree it is very clear that Fascism is not derived from Marxism or Hegel ideas. However, failing to recognize Fascism as a socialist (or socialist-like system if you will) is a disrespect to History and I also think it is very dangerous.
I will have to confess a degree of ignorance about modern Spanish politics. think the question here is, what socio-economic system is normative? You ar suggesting that ANY Socialist-like system must not be considered?
If that is so, where does that leave us? Does this mean we cannot question Capitalism?
Returning to Spain, the biggest Fascist party in modern days is Democracia Nacional (National Democracy). They describe themselves as a patriotic-socialist party (any coincidence with National Socialist is unintentional, I guess?) A whole lot of their marketing is built around the concept that they are not a right wing party, not at all, because they have all these socialistic goals in their programme. Unlike those old Fascist parties of old, that were capitalistic bastards that wanted to sell you to the Jew.
Perhaps ANY anti-establishment system will also be anti-Capitalist. I don't subscribe to the idea that Capitalism is some natural system, it is an accid of history. It stands to reason, from purely logical grounds, that people would move towards some type of "socialist-like" system, because we are a social species.
Meanwhile, classic liberals get labeled as Fascists because if they
are extremist but they are not Socialistic they must be fascist.
I've noted this too, and this mislabelling makes no sense. People are just throwing out the "fascist" label as a smear, not a descriptor of that person politics.
I think these misslabelings are much more dangerous than risking people think that Communism and Fascism are related, because they are both Socialist Authoritarian systems. So for both pragmatical and political reasons, I prefer to classify Fascism as a non-Marxist Socialist system myself.
But then what is NOT a Socialist system? I am viewing things in terms of ho we could move from our current situation. I see our world as being stuck, ossified, unable to adapt to change or fix structural problems. The automat rejection of any change of the system, by such labelling is an issue.
I'm looking to the FUTURE, and seeing that the West is in decline, and we wi lose our position in terms of quality of life, and power in the world. Our economic system in part is dead. How do we solve the problem of concentrati of wealth? Of a small number of people undermining nations by control of capital? There are errors itself in Capitalism, and these have to be addressed.
But the question is, how far can we deviate from the current system, without being labelled "Socialism" or "Socialist-like", and taken off the table?
As I said, I support an ownership economy and universal self employment. I believe that Capital is making claims to productive activity that are not justified. Are these "Socialist" ideas? Because if in your analysis, this i "socialist-like", then I would rather side with the Patriotic-Socialist part than the current system.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I was making no particular claim regarding socialism itself - whether
it should be considered or not. On the other hand, since you want an answer, I think hard Socialist systems are monopolies and feature concentration of wealth and power issues. There is no difference
between the means of production being owned by massive Unions appointed
by some overlord or by some corporation which is there because it
bought some ministers.
Capitalism is a very social system on paper. You get boons for
providing goods and services to fellow humans who need them. Humans are also quite competitive and won't work if they don't get something out
of it, which is why I think capitalistic tendencies are natural. Not
that I have ever bought the natural fallacy. Besides, if the
establishment is Socialist, which is not such a weird occurence, I
would expect anti-establishment currents not to be necessarily anti-capitalistic...
Since you are asking for a definition: Socialis is the system that
employs cohercitive messures to enforce egalitarian wealth distribution (to different degrees) and tries to push the economy towards a pre
planned script.
And no, you cannot propose a Socialist system and complain that it is labeled as a Socialist system. Well, you can, but doing so is weird. In any case, the point is moot. Socialist governments are a monopoly over
the means of production just the same way "late stage capitalism" is - with a difference, at least in Socialism, that the monopoly is enforced instead of being a natural event.
I am not particullarly fond of the future. Quality of life will decline
in the long run regarding economic system just because there will be
more people in the same ball of mud competing for less resources.
Empiric evidence suggests Socialism is not an answer because population
in Socialists countries likes to purchase lots of goods and services
from the government (ie: they are prone to consumism). If the Socialist government slows consummerism down, there are riots and protests and political implications. First reaction when the government closes a government funder service are protests and riots...
Fascism scores near 0% economic freedom, 0% personal freedom. Communism also does, although they police for different things.
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
That's what the shot does.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
i never got a flu shot and i havent go the flu since i was 18
Thumper wrote to Dr. What <=-
We've always wondered here as my whole company and my wife's company
came down with something horrible in January. Some people ended up in
the hospital......
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
I think that the main (and original) definition of right wing vs left
wing is related to the adherence to traditional values.
Are you familiar with the Nolan chart?
Fascism scores near 0% economic freedom, 0% personal freedom. Communism also does, although they police for different things.
The Lizard Master wrote to Dr. What <=-
At least in my area if you give blood they test it for antibodies.
Not sure if that's widespread or not.
Moondog wrote to Dr. What <=-
Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/
collectivism. It's
closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only
works when every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt
steps in to weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of the state.
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have that problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
That's what the shot does.
As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.
Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/ collectivism. It's
closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only works when
every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with >equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt steps in to
weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of >the state.
We were talking about the Flu shot.
Dumas Walker wrote to MOONDOG <=-
Socialism in real world practice is by no means socialism/ collectivism. It's
closer to fascism/ statism. True socialism and collectivism only works when
every buys into the system. In the real world very few are content with
equality of condition, so at some point the governemnt steps in to
weed out the folks who are not content so they don't contaminate the rest of
the state.
Exactly. On a local level, socialism/collectivism can work, I believe. When I say "local," I mean as in a group of people who decide they all want to live together in that manner on a farm or some other collective and on land that one of them owns.
As a form of governing a country, it will always devolve into some sort
of Animal Farm type situation. Those who are in authority and want to hold onto the way of life will attempt to crush all dissent. Those not
in authority will have little in the form of personal freedom. You
cannot force people to give up everything and expect that they will
just go along with it.
* SLMR 2.1a * Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope)
The change we need is to move towards an ownership economic, where the peopl (us), own and run the economy. We shouldn't move towards government ownersh and regulation, but instead move towards universal self employment. Labour the righful owner of what it produces, and we should have the same democrati rights in the workplace as we do in the public space. They are all the same space.
The real issue isn't private control of Capital, the real issue is that peop are alienated from their productive activities, and the employment contract used to take away self-governance, and rightful property rights.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Dumas Walker on Thu Jun 04 2020 08:14 pm
The change we need is to move towards an ownership economic, where the peopl (us), own and run the economy. We shouldn't move towards government ownersh and regulation, but instead move towards universal self employment. Labour the righful owner of what it produces, and we should have the same democrati rights in the workplace as we do in the public space. They are all the same space.
The real issue isn't private control of Capital, the real issue is that peop are alienated from their productive activities, and the employment contract used to take away self-governance, and rightful property rights.
Here is the thing. Workplaces cannot be an horizontal democracy mecause some job positions are more expendable than others. The person who
knows how to code that old nummeric control machine nobody else knows
how to code is going to have much more of a say than the person who
just moves boxes around in the warehouse.
Anarcho-primitivists know this and their proposed solution is to ensure nobody knows how to code the machine, so everybody is at the same specialitation level and nobody is more important in the industry than
the others. Which basically means no industrialitation and drastically less services in society, for the sake of equalty.
I think I prefer working for a boss and having access to industrially produced medicines, lawmowers, Internet etc. than living in a purely horizontal society and dying of flu because there are no doctors.
On the other hand, when you are the owner of your work, it is natural
to intend to sell it at some point. When there is enough people buying
and selling work, you go back to having the figure of the , shall we
say, professional capitalist. Because let's face it, fund masters,
bankers and the like, with all their Wall Street and abstract machinations, the onl¤y thing they do is transfer work credits from
people who wants to spend them to people who needs access to them.
The 'say' that people have any organisation is based on the rules and charte of that organisation. And self-run labour organisation would have some form structure which dictates how decisions are made, and the means by which the organisation decides. It may very well still have a council, or directors which are elected. Most would still have managers and executives, just as Democracies have elected officials who act on behalf of their constituents a agencies that execute governmental function. The Anarcho-Primitivists don' want an organisation at all, and don't want heirarchy.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Fri Jun 05 2020 07:40 pm
The 'say' that people have any organisation is based on the rules and charte of that organisation. And self-run labour organisation would have some form structure which dictates how decisions are made, and the means by which the organisation decides. It may very well still have a council, or directors which are elected. Most would still have managers and executives, just as Democracies have elected officials who act on behalf of their constituents a agencies that execute governmental function. The Anarcho-Primitivists don' want an organisation at all, and don't want heirarchy.
Well, I am going with the firms I know, but there is a lot of power outside of the official statutes of a firm. Some "floor zero"
secretaries control the flow of a lot of information and can manipulate the path of the firm greatly. Some system administrators know how to operate something that nobody else knows how to operate... there are
great power imbalances that have nothing to do with electability.
Cooperatives and self-run orgs do work, but the only ones I know that
do are extremely horizontal. Organizations where everybody roughly
knows the same things and has similar productive power. So yeah, in
those you can have elections for board positions that are clear and are not manipulated by shady interests.
To be honest, building a democratic firm is a hard to swallow proposal, because it is too easy for you to put the work and build an
organization, just to be kicked over during the next election and lose everything. And yes, I have also seen that.
I would also guess that many self-run orgs are created by people who ALSO subscribe to egalitarianism and equality. Most of the interest in self-run organisations I've seen are populated by people who believe in equality, so would guess your observation has more to do with the type of people who crea them, than some inevitable result of a coop. Such organisations appear horizontal because people of a socially and economic Left leaning bent creat them as per their SOCIAL ideals. While I support the idea of people owning their work, and governing their workplace, it isn't compatible with delegati of authority (ie, management).
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Mon Jun 01 2020 07:22 pm
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have t problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
That's what the shot does.
As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.
We were talking about the Flu shot.
that's just one guy you know out of many many others who dont have t problem. so no, everyone shouldnt get it.
we should depend on our immune systems
That's what the shot does.
As a shot for Wuhan Coronavirus does not exist yet, we don't really know what it will do... especially if they rush it to market too soon.
We were talking about the Flu shot.
i was talking about a possible shot for the corona virus.
We were talking about the Flu shot.
i was talking about a possible shot for the corona virus.
Apology accepted.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sat Jun 06 2020 11:38 am
I would also guess that many self-run orgs are created by people who ALSO subscribe to egalitarianism and equality. Most of the interest in self-run organisations I've seen are populated by people who believe in equality, so would guess your observation has more to do with the type of people who crea them, than some inevitable result of a coop. Such organisations appear horizontal because people of a socially and economic Left leaning bent creat them as per their SOCIAL ideals. While I support the idea of people owning their work, and governing their workplace, it isn't compatible with delegati of authority (ie, management).
Hello,
The organizations I am thinking about are not political and are not
united by any political ideas. They are just joining up so they can compete with big firms and can ensure that all the members are
producing goods that are to be sold at the same agreed price. They are
not comrades, they are people making money. Most of them at least.
If you agree to create an organization and forfeit any claim to it, and then kicked out of it later, well, you agreed that could happen, but
that does not change the fact you are asking people to put a lot of
work building something that can be taken away just too easily. Firms
with small boards where everybody is in a similar standing can have
their boards crash in disagreement so easily... I really don see it
being stable at all except on some niche circumpstances.
Capitalism has to build a set of morals where one class of people "owners", have more moral weight than others "employers". Labour of Capital could jus as easily hire you to build a business, then fire you the moment it is done.
Is that like what was happening in the movie Inception?
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 10:42 am
Capitalism has to build a set of morals where one class of people "owners", have more moral weight than others "employers". Labour of Capital could jus as easily hire you to build a business, then fire you the moment it is done.
Hello,
I don't really think they are the same cases at all.
When you are hired to build something up, you take the contract instead
of working on your own because it is more efficient for you to do so
and use the resources of the employer for making a living.
Example: if you get employed at a hammer factory, you make hammers
using machines provided by the employer, probably training provided by
the employer, and materials provided by the employer. You could set up your own workshop for manufacturing hammers, but you would have to
gather the materials yourself, learn the trade, and find people who
wants hammers. In the end, you have to decide whether using the
resources of a capitalist agent for making a living is more efficient
than building your own corral.
In the first case, the emotional investment in the job is low and both employer and employee know the termination conditions of the contract.
In the second case, you are pulling all the weight yourself and the emotional investment in the project is quite high.
When you propose somebody to boot a democratic horizontal firm, what
you are asking (because that is what I think you are doing) somebody to pull all the weight, using his own network of contacts, known-how, and resources, making a heavy emotional investment in something that can be taken away easily.
When you hire somebody to boot a traditional firm, what you are doing
is to provide starting resources to somebody who is going to get paid according to the job and is unlikely to be psychologically devastated
if the management of the firm is transferred to somebody else. My
family has been there, by the way.
In conclusion, I don't think the cases are really comparable.
Hope this clears it up a little. In short, your assets, your property does transfer to the 'collective'. If the 'collective' created all the assets, t you can only claim your agreed portion. Either way, you end up with what yo deserve, your input minus liabilities.
Re: Masks and Social Distance
By: Moondog to Wizzkidd on Sun May 31 2020 09:56 am
Is that like what was happening in the movie Inception?
I just watched that movie after your recommendation. Afterwards I told my w she should watch it. She told me we already watched it at the movie theater I don't remember it at all. I'm begining to realize I've been 3 dreams deep this whole time. I'm not 100% sure, though, so I'm afraid to exit.
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Jun 07 2020 09:22 pm
Hope this clears it up a little. In short, your assets, your property does transfer to the 'collective'. If the 'collective' created all the assets, t you can only claim your agreed portion. Either way, you end up with what yo deserve, your input minus liabilities.
I know what you mean, but there are two fundamental points why I don't
buy into the idea.
First of all, I think you can't dissociate labor and assets. If I give
you olives to make pizzas, those olives were produced via labor. If I
lend you a pizza shop, I am lending you all the work that it took to create the pizza shop in the first place. You may argue that pizza
shops are not expendable assets and thus are different from olives, but industrial instalations ARE expendable assets... they break down and
have risks and require continuous maintenance.
On the other hand, when I help create an organization, I am putting
work in it. Even if I am not placing assets, it is taking time and
effort. So if you are kicked out your work will go to waste even if you lose no assets (which you will, but that is not the point). Which is
where you feel like crap and hang yourself because of that emotional investment that you say doesn't matter :-)
What I am proposing, is a way in which everyone has stronger property rights and a universal application of the labour theory of property, that is, the i that property rights are created through labour and you own what you make. seem to be supporting this, but our current system systematically denies thi to tens of million of people daily. The case where you have any control or right over your investment is NOW the exception, not the rule. People feeli like crap because they helped build up a business, and are left hanging is N the norm. What are you doing for these people?
So to argue you are not sure, because a very, very small number of people mi "feel bad" that they are only paid exactly their input value and don't have their feelings considered doesn't make any logical sense, considering that a things are NOW, millions are investing their time and emotions and getting shafted. But the Capitalist system indoctrinates us into thinking that one class of people "entrepreneurs/Capitalists" deserve a better moral standard than others "employees/labour", which is why you so readily bring up the per who creates a business as an objection, but disregard the situation of peopl doing the EXACT SAME THING, but who have entered into a contract where they alienated from their labour, ie, hired.
Your argument to me doesn't appear logical or consistent. You are arguing t considering of just property rights should factor emotional investment as we with that having a real bearing on property rights, but don't argue this as rule. That is, what rights should 'emotional investment' offer. If so plea define. If not, then its not an argument. You are also separating the labo of someone working for themselves building a business, and someone under an
Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Mon Jun 08 2020 12:59 pm
What I am proposing, is a way in which everyone has stronger property rights and a universal application of the labour theory of property, that is, the i that property rights are created through labour and you own what you make. seem to be supporting this, but our current system systematically denies thi to tens of million of people daily. The case where you have any control or right over your investment is NOW the exception, not the rule. People feeli like crap because they helped build up a business, and are left hanging is N the norm. What are you doing for these people?
So to argue you are not sure, because a very, very small number of people mi "feel bad" that they are only paid exactly their input value and don't have their feelings considered doesn't make any logical sense, considering that a things are NOW, millions are investing their time and emotions and getting shafted. But the Capitalist system indoctrinates us into thinking that one class of people "entrepreneurs/Capitalists" deserve a better moral standard than others "employees/labour", which is why you so readily bring up the per who creates a business as an objection, but disregard the situation of peopl doing the EXACT SAME THING, but who have entered into a contract where they alienated from their labour, ie, hired.
Your argument to me doesn't appear logical or consistent. You are arguing t considering of just property rights should factor emotional investment as we with that having a real bearing on property rights, but don't argue this as rule. That is, what rights should 'emotional investment' offer. If so plea define. If not, then its not an argument. You are also separating the labo of someone working for themselves building a business, and someone under an
I mentioned emotional investment to show there is a difference between building something for yourself and doing so for others. People feels different about each, and to me, that hints there is a difference. It
is not a claim that you have a higher moral standard depending on how
you feel.
I neither claim somebody has a higher moral stand for being either an employer or an employee. Or, for that matter, any pro-Capitalist literature I remember from the opt of my head.
I think your real problem lies with the concept of hireability. In
which case I wonder what the difference between hiring a self-employed hole digger and hiring a hole digger megafirm is. Spoiler: I don't buy
the marxist argument of the surplus value which is stolen by the hiring agent.
means the pattern of property rights resulting is fraudulent. Labour cannot be
purchased, the fact that a contract exist which state that it is transferred doesn't make this so.
Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.
Hitler spoke very much like a Marxist, that is true. But in practice, Nationalist Socialist Germany, it didn't move towards Socialism.
I am a sort of "Socialist", but "Socialism" today is equated to Marxism. To be
a Socialist is considered to be a Marxist, and therein lies the problem. There
are alternatives to Capitalism that are not Marxist Socialism. We are stuck with this belief that it is one or the other, and as a result, are unable to move on deep seated economic problems. We have to move away from the current Capitalist/Neo-Liberal model, but as long as Marxism acts as an effective boogeyman, we are going to stagnate idelogically, and decline.
Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling
can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
just use a single bin and sort it all together.
Our society and manufacturing isn't geared toward recycling. Materials such as aluminum and glass are easily melted back down, however the plastics we use are designed with properties that help them serve their purpose with no pl
ans for recovery.
On 5/29/2020 11:53 AM, Moondog wrote:
Recycling is largely a jobs program.. not only that, but most recycling >> can't actually be recycled and is a problem of sorting... may as well
just use a single bin and sort it all together.
Our society and manufacturing isn't geared toward recycling. Materials su as aluminum and glass are easily melted back down, however the plastics we use are designed with properties that help them serve their purpose with n ans for recovery.
Plastics are largely a byproduct of fuel consumption. Without reducing
fuel consumption, there's very little incentive to reduce/recycle
plastics in any meaningful way. Also, the alternate channels and costs associated with recycling plastics are limited.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try to reduce/reuse/recycle only that the
final part of the three isn't necessarily practical.
--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS
Tracker1 wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 5/29/2020 1:31 AM, Dennisk wrote:
Fascism isn't socialism, thought some have argued that it is a type of socialism. It could be argued that the Soviet Union wasn't really Socialist either. In practice though, Fascist Italy and Nationalist Socialist Germany were NOT Socialist. The workers did not own the means of production.
Hitler spoke very much like a Marxist, that is true. But in practice, Nationalist Socialist Germany, it didn't move towards Socialism.
Fascism isn't quite the same as capitalism either. That said, if you actually talk to Socialists for a while, their ideas tend to align with Communism much like Communist Russia or China, and I can't help but
feel this is the same path that already killed hundreds of millions
when used in practice.
I am a sort of "Socialist", but "Socialism" today is equated to Marxism. Tob
eTher
a Socialist is considered to be a Marxist, and therein lies the problem.
ecurrent
are alternatives to Capitalism that are not Marxist Socialism. We are stuck with this belief that it is one or the other, and as a result, are unable to move on deep seated economic problems. We have to move away from the
Capitalist/Neo-Liberal model, but as long as Marxism acts as an effective boogeyman, we are going to stagnate idelogically, and decline.
It's also possible to regulate or even have government backed
competition to corporations without going fully Socialist.
The postal service is probably the closest example, but is so tightly coupled to congressional oversight, they aren't able to adapt well.
All the same, FedEx, UPS and others continue to exist and compete.
I'd like to see similar in terms of federal programs for healthcare and include those covered by federal dollars for health insurance
(medicare, medicaid, va retirement, govt employees, elected officials
etc. Take all of that funding, create a non-profit insurance
corporation that covers those same classes (with a single policy) and allow for anyone (including those with employees) to buy policy
coverage. Combined with some changes to insurance requirements
(fiduciary responsibility) and patent reform with licensing
requirements (multi-sourcing required) for prescriptions it could be
much better without having the government take over the sector.
I tend to lean libertarian for most things, I am not a fan of the power the govt grants corporations and feel for the most part, solutions that encourage competition are best. Sometimes that means creating
competition with the power of government, but takover is not something
I'm a fan of.
I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple competing l of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other secti
The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.
A very large part of the reason I support democratically run workplaces, and ownership economy, is because having a small number of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire people because of "values" that are not related t production). Companies, not the state, is the greater threat to freedom of speech, and perhaps the wellbeing of our own civilisation. Especially in th USA. If you find that you cannot get a job, a loan, or even a bank account because a small number of ideologues which control these companies don't lik deviation from their orthodoxy, you are in a nightmarish dystopia, one that perhaps could have been avoided. Employees ARE citizens too. Companies mus NOT have a right to take away our freedom of speech, of thought and opinion, yet so, so many people seem to think this is OK.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
On 06-17-20 20:51, Dennisk wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple
competing loci of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other section.
The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.
A very large part of the reason I support democratically run
workplaces, and an ownership economy, is because having a small number
of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: not my president?
By: Dennisk to Tracker1 on Wed Jun 17 2020 08:51 pm
I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple competing l of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other secti
The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.
A very large part of the reason I support democratically run workplaces, and ownership economy, is because having a small number of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire people because of "values" that are not related t production). Companies, not the state, is the greater threat to freedom of speech, and perhaps the wellbeing of our own civilisation. Especially in th USA. If you find that you cannot get a job, a loan, or even a bank account because a small number of ideologues which control these companies don't lik deviation from their orthodoxy, you are in a nightmarish dystopia, one that perhaps could have been avoided. Employees ARE citizens too. Companies mus NOT have a right to take away our freedom of speech, of thought and opinion, yet so, so many people seem to think this is OK.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
I have mixed opinions about companies and corporations. At a smaller company the workers may be in clear view or have the attention of thos ewho make big decisions, and it's clear they fill a potential role in
the company and may be compensated accordingly. Other places are so
vast, workers are cogs in the machine. The common thread is they do
not have to work there. The employee is not a conscript or draftee.
They apply or interview in, then stick around either because it beats having no job or there's no one else hiring or meeting the conditions
they consider leaving for.
Regarding freedom of speech at work, one must remember if part of your
job is dealing or being exposed to customers and share holders, you are
a representat ive of that company on company time. What you do or say
on your own time is different unless it deals with company secrets or proprietary information. I see way too many people gripe about their
jobs on social media, however they must be careful about what they say that could be viewed by a client or competitor and used in a negative
way.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 06-17-20 20:51, Dennisk wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I am for a smaller government too. I am especially for multiple
competing loci of power, so that one section of society cannot hold hostage any other section.
The government should be counterbalanced by other forces. Companies cannot use their position to shape society.
This idea makes a lot of sense. Having power distributed relatively evenly among many smaller centres gives a lot more scope for debate and negotiation, as well as a better balance in society.
A very large part of the reason I support democratically run
workplaces, and an ownership economy, is because having a small number
of people get to decide what companies which consist of hundreds or thousands of people do, is pathological. We are entering dangerous territory where large companies are able to sway thought, social development, and force ideological adherence through "values" (ie, fire
I agree, the trend towards larger companies with this sort of power is very worrying. The idea of a democratically owned company is appealing
to me as well.
On 06-19-20 20:44, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The people who engage in productive activity, should have a degree of control over the means in which that is engaged, and how the product of that activity is invested/distributed. Democratically run companies is the way which this could be done, most in line with our Western values,
and better than say the Communist approach where the state acts as if
it represents the people. Other solutions I'm sure, could be thought
of.
Either way though, one must ask how we can get to a state where a
nation where millions of people work to create, ends up controlled and owned by a few. This clearly indicates a problem, and we often allow ourselves to get bamboozled by the details which "justify" this.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 06-19-20 20:44, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The people who engage in productive activity, should have a degree of control over the means in which that is engaged, and how the product of that activity is invested/distributed. Democratically run companies is the way which this could be done, most in line with our Western values,
And when people are invested in their company, you gain employee satisfaction and productivity, among other things.
and better than say the Communist approach where the state acts as if
it represents the people. Other solutions I'm sure, could be thought
of.
I'm sure there's other creative, but workable solutions.
Either way though, one must ask how we can get to a state where a
nation where millions of people work to create, ends up controlled and owned by a few. This clearly indicates a problem, and we often allow ourselves to get bamboozled by the details which "justify" this.
And you've hit on the problem. And it's a problem, whether those few people are "government" or "corporate elite".
On 06-21-20 13:26, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, for too long we've believed that if one ideology is in power (markets) over another (statism), then we will be OK. The problem
isn't whether we have a market system or not, its whether *WE* have
sway and control of the system.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 06-21-20 13:26, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, for too long we've believed that if one ideology is in power (markets) over another (statism), then we will be OK. The problem
isn't whether we have a market system or not, its whether *WE* have
sway and control of the system.
That makes sense to me - control of the system matters in the hands of
the people more than the system itself. And theoretically, that's also
a much easier adjustment to make than trying to totally change the econimic system - keep the basics of what we have, but fix the pathological parts.
On 06-23-20 19:56, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
In reality, it is CLOSER to the true ethos of Capitalism and Democracy.
One of the fundamental tenets of Capitalism, is that property rights
are created by acts of labour, that is to say, labour itself is the rightful owner of property it creates. We actually have a system
whereby we create "exceptions" in companies, where this property right
is treated as something alienable, that one can agree to suspend it.
It is a great irony that todays Capitalism is actually reliant on
creating and justifying this exception, which I think is one of the reasons it becomes pathological.
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